PDA

View Full Version : Dilemma



Homemom
10-12-05, 12:54 pm
Our local PetCo (PC) has had a chinchilla and white Aby boar for over a month. He has not sold and has had recurring eye discharge - comes and goes.

Due to traffic and such, PetCo and PetsMart (PM) are really the only options for buying supplies. The stores that do not sell live animals have a HIGH markup or with traffic, can take me easily an hour to get to. (Such is life outside Washington, DC). I mail order a lot of my stuff but the cost of shipping cage litter is brutal. And since my favorite groomers moved to PetCo (and no, with one of my pets, he really only tolerates this one groomer), I do go there.

Anyhow, I have spoken with PC about this boy. He is really bugging me. Local rescues will not step in because he is at a store and technically he is not really ill so animal control and the board of health are tied until he worsens (which he has not yet).

I do not buy (except fish as there are no fishy rescues and they rarely show up in shelters) from pet shops. Our local PC has had its share of issues recently. Over the winter, they gave my son a rat (animal was blind in one eye and had ringworm, which I noticed but they did not) because they could not sell it or send it back. They would not even sell it as a feeder as it was "damaged goods." (Like snakes care). My son's adopted hamster just died of cancer and he really wanted a rat. So I let him take the rat as they were going to let it live out its life in a back small tank until a staff member took it home or it died. (the rat was given free and not paid for). This summer, they got in a rat missing a leg (but the child of the rescue that adopts out of PC took her).

Anyhow, this buy is not getting worse physically and the eye issue seems to return when the cage is overcroweded (so I think it is in response to ammonia build up). But he is getting lethargic whenever new pigges are added... He is miserable.

I do not want to buy from a pet shop, but watching him just die mentally is killing me.

So, should I bite my tongue and get him the heck out of there or not?

:(

I know they do not care that an animal is going out because he is in rough straights, all they see is $39.99 and an opening for another sale critter to be brought in. But the past month has been frustrating trying to get him help...

CavySpirit
10-12-05, 01:10 pm
And what about the next two sick ones that will take his place?

watching him just die mentally is killing me.

It kills all of us. Can you think of some more agressive things you can do? There are more things to do. Walk in with a camera. Take photos. Tell them you are going to write a letter to the editor of the paper and do so. Tell them you are going to post his plight on the internet.

Judi (rescue) works in the DC area. Have you contacted her? Are you familiar with her? Perhaps she has some ideas or suggestions.

Homemom
10-12-05, 01:26 pm
I know of Judi but she only takes from local shelters and I think I am slowly covering what bases she will tell me to do. I used to do this with dogs and cats. It is so hard to steel yourself... But I know stores only care that a sales space opens and not for why. I used to fight with a local rescue when the other volunteers wanted to head in and pull out pups of their breed. The stores do not care as long asd they can get money. I am relatively new to the plight of cavy rescue though and old dog, cat, rabbit pro...

I am going to call the regional office and drop that it would be a shame that this is happening and that I will be happy to write about it (cannot name the store for legal issues but can malke it known it is a popular chain where pets go).

I will drop in and see if they are still using the local vet for checks and drop a line to hium as well. It used to be a clinic I was familair with. Maybe they can drop a hint.

I am brain draining other ideas - but sadly, the county cannot get involved right now - but I will keep an eye on the pig and call in neglect should the eye issue persist this time.

I also know the rescue that sets up there (all species) and think Janet may have some pull with management to address the problem. I will drop her a line as well.

happimommaof2
10-12-05, 02:09 pm
I would have bought my guineas from a pet store if not for the wonderful people on this site, but I am going to have to disagree. Everyone and everything desserves a chance and if you can help him, granted it means opening a space up for another animal to take his place but last time I checked it is not the animals fault. They depend on us to take care of them and protect them but if we are just going to stand by and watch this happen and try to justfiy the reasons for not taking him well then I am sorry but that makes us no better than the people who run the stores. I know this site is big on rescuing (sp?) animals so what makes this case different he needs the help and his eye needs attention and he needs love, so whats the problem? If you can step in and take him and give him a good home which I am pretty sure you can than whats the problem? Your rescuing an animal that needs you, you are not intentionally (sp?) giving them money but you are trying to help this little guy. So for what its worth I say go for it get him the heck out of there and give him the love and attention that he needs and desserves your obviously a good person so do the right thing and take care of that poor baby.... By the way I also rescued my piggies from a home that did not take care of them but if I was in you shoes I would have to say, now yes I would do it also. You can write to the newspaper after you bring him home obviously your the only one willing to help him. Follow your heart you will make the right decission (sp?)!!!!
Take Care Hope everything works out great for the both of you!!!!

Amanda

CavySpirit
10-12-05, 03:08 pm
so whats the problem?

The problem is big and ugly. Ugly to deal with. Do you think any one of us doesn't feel for that one pig? We all do. The question is how BIG is your wallet? How much ROOM do you have your house? How many times are you willing to repeat this? Because if you don't have an unending reservoir, you will be saving this one only to condemn multiple others. You make the problem worse rather putting your energies elsewhere to try to stop or prevent the problem in the first place. It is much more effort to try to make a change rather than just go get that pig. That's what they count on.

happimommaof2
10-12-05, 03:56 pm
Oh so I think I get it now, so further condem (sp?) this poor animal to either a life with a family who does not care, or a life in a cage where no one cares about it or a life with a family that wants it and loves it and will never hurt him. I guess I dont understand the whole "pro-rescue" but lets leave this animal to fend for itself. I dont get what makes him any different than an animal that needs you in a shelter just because it is his crappy luck that he got stuck in a pet store, seems kinda sad to me and also pointless if you can help him why not???? Because we dont want to support this pet store? When it comes right down to it, it makes no difference what you do, you either rescue him and treat him right or he will eventually die if not at this pet store then in someones home who really has no time for it, so either way you can either do something to help him or just let go because eventually they will replace him anyways because eventually they will just dispose of him. I am just some one who has to little guineas that I know if I walked into a pet store and saw something like that I would have to help if anything foster him until you can find him a good home. Why not do that?? Like I said before just follow your heart and do what you feel is best and if you only foster him to turn around and give him to a good home than more power to you. I dont know how much this counts but I am behind you 100%..
Take care hope all works out for the both of you!!!
Amanda

Homemom
10-12-05, 04:02 pm
Amanda


Trust me, I know and I know all too well... Again, I actually have many years in rescue. But now with being a pet editor I can fight more effectively.

It is so hard not to give in to the heart. I rescued a cat five years ago. He was part of a kitten mill raid that was one of the worst in our county.

Here is is story: http://centralpets.com/phpscripts/search/storiesdisplay.php?Story=136 - save me from typing it. This was written in 2001.

I recently learned that of all the cats confiscated and kittens born to pregnant mothers, Neelix was one of a scant few who made it. After his bills hit four figures, we stopped keeping track of them. But we figured in the first couple months we spent easily $2,000 (and we are far from rich - at that point we were just under the median range for our county and back then, it was not considered an affluent county).

It is so hard to ignore your heart for rationale - I am struggling with it but know I have to take other measures that would benefit all the animals and not open a spot up for any pitiful soul to come in... It is just hard but I know in my brain that buying him would not be wise in the long run for the betterment of the animals. I just needed a reality kick... And getting my brain working harder for more angles...

Out of presently our dogs, five cats, five guinea pigs and a rat, all but two dogs are rescues. Several have really hard luck stories - all the rescues were either found abandoned, sent to the shelter or one was a working farm dog returned to the breeder when the farm went bankrupt (during the bankruptcy phase the owners basically just fed the dogs and eventually called the breeder when they could not find a place they could rent hat would allow them to bring in two LARGE dogs off a farm that were working dogs). Of my current five pigs, all but one was adopted through a shelter or rescue. One was found dying at a petting farm - accidental litter. Kid was trying to dump them. The others were in better shape so we got the little baby out of there and had the farm inspected by animal control for cruelty (we were at a birthday party, I tend to avoid petting farms but allegedly this one had cleaned up and I wanted to see if it had, and it was a child whom my son was close to but their scheduled do not coinicide for playdates anymore and they are now in different schools). The boy made it and is a stunning long haired (very odd coat too). But he cost hundreds of dollars the first week.

I just do not have endless funds to buy and adopt every critter out there. Nor do I have the space in our small house for more cages at this point...

A friend of mine just got hit with the D word from her husband and is trying to find a home for their Chinchilla if they cannot keep it. She asked me if I could take it, great with kids, her daughter is in my son's class and they have known each othe since preschool. I had to turn her down because I cannot add another cage into my house right now...

It may take time, but I have started brainstorming a new article and have a couple other avenues to try...

And when I write... :) Much different from my posting style :) Though the C&C Cage article was written in a different tone than my other stuff tends to be. More relaxed and I wrote it as I worked.

happimommaof2
10-12-05, 04:10 pm
Well I hope everything works out for you, sounds like you have a houseful! I truly hope everything works out. But I do have a question, even if you dont take him another animal will eventually take his place right? I dont know I am slowly trying to understand all of this I will keep it all close to my heart. Take care
Amanda

happimommaof2
10-12-05, 04:15 pm
You know and honestly before I got my guineas I pet a guinea for the first time when I got these two I just did not look at them as pets, but now its a whole different ball game. I see where you are coming from though I have 1 dog that was rescued from a pound and then the 2 guineas and 2 other children plus my husband and we are renting our house and it is all on one income due to the fact that I am a stay at home mom and I am seriously needing to build them a new cage bigger most definetly. If you ever need any help just let me know granted I live in Wyoming but I love to type and I love to help and I love animals. And every state has its problems. Take Care
Amanda

Access
10-12-05, 05:04 pm
You cannot look at the world as evaluated from only your perspective and frozen in time. We need to focus on long-term, sustainable solutions, not short-term fixes.

If someone is dealing drugs to children on your local street corner, you don't buy all his drugs and then flush them down the toilet reasoning that this way none of his drugs will go to children. If you were to do that, the dealer would profit and he would be back tommorow with even more drugs.

There are pleanty of other things you can do, someone mentioned taking photographs -- perfectly legal in any area that is open to the public. Then enlarge and print the photographs onto a sign, stand outside and protest, etc. In most states, your right to protest, provided you do not harass people, is protected by law. Helping one animal to hurt 2-3 or more down the line is only hurtful to animals, it is not helpful at all.

happimommaof2
10-12-05, 05:21 pm
I 100% agree with you but what about the Animal that is sitting in the cage suffering???? I dont look at it the way you said but I do look at it as that is a living breathing creature how long does it have to suffer for? Just curious!!!

happimommaof2
10-12-05, 05:28 pm
I started to wash dishes and then I realized what I have been trying to say all along. I understand trying to prevent it so future cases dont happen but what about the one that is happening now? Your not going to prevent others from coming in to petstores plain and simple unless petstores are banned from selling live animals, so why not help the one that needs it now! I just dont understand I know she cant because she does not have the room but what about for some one else to foster it, you know or does nobody understand what I am trying to say? Why not prevent the one that is happening now??? Why should he have to continue to suffer? Like I have said before I am new to all of this I look at piggies and other animals differently than what I did prior to getting my girls (and yes I am ashamed to say that). It breaks my heart that animals are treated this way but wether this one is taken out of that enviroment there will be others to follow even if a good person comes in and rescues him but if not then you dont think that after awhile the petstore will dispose of him is that fair to him. I dont understand the logic I know everybody has there limits but I just dont understand, I know protest write letters, articles what ever you have to do but while we are doing all this protesting and letter writing I hate to say this, but he is still in that cage suffering. Am I wrong to think this way?:weepy: I hope I dont offend anyone by my opinons, so please dont take it the wrong way!
Take Care Always near my heart!

CavySpirit
10-12-05, 05:40 pm
even if you dont take him another animal will eventually take his place right?

Not necessarily.

And YES, that one pig might die. Face it. Rather than walking into the pet store and supporting them, try walking into a shelter instead. If you don't ADOPT that one pig, it WILL BE KILLED. If you BUY that pet store pig, you might as well put a needle of poison in the belly of the shelter pig. You just don't SEE it.

Also, you don't SEE the MILL from whence that pet store pig came AND MORE WILL BE COMING IF YOU BUY.

how long does it have to suffer for?

Stop thinking about taking the easy way out and saving that one pig that you see because you walk into a nice, well-lit, consumer-oriented pet store. FIND THE MILL. GO TO THE SHELTER. Too much work for the sake of that one piggie's life? Quite frankly, for most people it is.

This situation underscores that river of anger and frustration and yes hatred of breeders and the pet trade that causes us to have to make the heart-wrenching decision to walk away from that pig in need. It's why the policies on this site are firm, firm, firm and we brook no quarter with the gray areas.

happimommaof2
10-12-05, 05:47 pm
Please dont mistake me for being one of those people that is all bark and no bite! I see what you are saying and beleive it or not until I read your post did I understand, it makes sense but crap it is so sensless isnt it? I am slowly learning that there is truly ignorant people out there (breeders, petstores etc, etc...) So what can I do to help? Its like looking at your kids and thinking how could someone be so sick as to abuse a child, you can look at animals the same way how can someone be so sick as to abuse an animal be it dog, cat, guinea pig, fish oh heck even rats you know aaagggghhh I am slowly learning please have patience with me.
Thank You

CavySpirit
10-12-05, 05:53 pm
No problem. Tough love is one of the hardest things to get across. Getting people to understand the true reality of the pet trade/pet industry and the reality of supply and demand and the pressure of economics as it relates to that one pathetic guinea pig is very difficult.

There are things you can do to help.

happimommaof2
10-12-05, 05:56 pm
What could I do?

CavySpirit
10-12-05, 06:18 pm
I thought we already had a thread on this. Someone help me out.

happimommaof2
10-12-05, 06:24 pm
Thats ok I can look Thanks! Cooking dinner now but will look later
Take Care
Amanda

Homemom
10-12-05, 06:35 pm
Well I hope everything works out for you, sounds like you have a houseful! I truly hope everything works out. But I do have a question, even if you dont take him another animal will eventually take his place right? I dont know I am slowly trying to understand all of this I will keep it all close to my heart. Take care
Amanda

Sorry, had to lie down for a but and also get two kids ready for bed. There is something NASTY going about and I caught it after both kiddoes were sick last week.

Pet shops are businesses and are more about the bottom line than for the animals This is how it was explained to me years ago - though still hard to accept at times. You have to do whatever you can NOT to purchase animals from a stopre no matter how it hurts... It just took me years to understand it the more I got involved in rescue.

So, you want to bring them down, you hit them financially and not do anything to make them keep selling animals.

If the PMs and PCs, Debbie's, PetLands, etc, of the world could not move the animals, they would stop selling them. But as long as humans are willing to take the easy route or the impulse route, then animals will be sold.

Now, working with rescues (or breeders, now I know many are against breeding here and that is fine, I always recommend rescue first when people contact me looking for whatever and I explain the need for patience) can take time. If you are looking for something specific, you may have to wait a long time. I looked for months for my Pyr. I was hooked up with rescues and breeders who supported rescue. I needed something specific. Well, one of the breeders was having two working dogs returned to her and offered me one. If this stroke of fate had not happened, I probably would have waited a year or more. Most humans are not willing to wait weeks or months.

So the retail sale of pets from stores is very appealing to many. Most do not want to wait weeks or months for a specific thing to come in or be born - simple as that. Humans do not understand that you have to wait if you are looking for specifics or want to be choosy. You hit that rescue looking for a young female wazzit that is purple and green, it may not be there if it is not commonly turned into a rescue. And if there is one coming in, there may be a waiting list of other wishing to adopt before you. It may be weeks or months before another purple and green female wazzit shows up. However, there are many young female red and blue wazzits... Also, shops will not turn you away as long as your money is green or credit good. Many have no idea why good rescues do all they do when interviewing homes. I did home checks and interviews for dog rescues.

Stores will only sell what sells well. So if PC and PM cannot sell animals well, they will stop carrying them.

A friend of mine's husband works in electrical supplies, they recently moved out to Washington state for a district manager's position. One thing her husband was good at was turning around stores. If a store was faltering in the district he was in, often the managers would ask him to overhaul it. This meant looking at inventory, what was needed, what was not, etc. Why waste space if something does not move? It is a waste of time and energy and revenue to keep it stocked. If something is not selling, it needs to be taken out and no longer sold.

Look at animals, they COST a store to maintain. If the sales drop off, they loose even more money because they have to feed and clean, etc. Hit sales and boost supplies over live animals and only supplies will be sold. But as long as you have people willing to go for the impulse buy or the easy way to get a pet even after rescues and breeders (good ones) have educated about why John Doe is not suited for X pet - stores will continue to sell them.

Humans are also selfish and want to do what they want even if it is NOT in the best interest of another life. I deal with this more and more as a dog trainer and behavioral consultant - and even after spending good cash and working for hours with me, it is amazing how few owners make needed changes and months later call me that the issues are getting worse.

As for shelters and saving two lives. Sadly, due to too many irresponsible owners not altering pets and too many irresponsible breeders churning out critters for the masses without consideration for form, function, health and other issues that go along with breeding, too many shelters still have to euthanize animals they cannot find homes for. There is no such thing as a no kill shelter - some just do not euthanize, but if they have to turn away an animal for lack of space or foster as the no kill I worked with had to on many occasions (at one time we had an estimated 6 month wait for an adult cat to be able to come in, who can wait that long to dump an animal - or who will?), these animals may wind up in a shelter that does euthanize on the premises (the lucky ones do, the unlucky may end up with a far worse fate than a chance at a home and a hopeful peaceful passing).

Anyhow, you adopt from a shelter and you not only give a second chance to a critter but you also open that space for another to get a chance as opposed to being abandoned and left to fend for itself or brought back and seriously negelcted and abused.

happimommaof2
10-13-05, 10:58 am
I understand what you are saying, like I said before I am new to this so it just floors me how people can be so ignorant towards animals. I have a lot to learn and eventually I will learn more it is just taking time. I do a lot on impulse and I guess my first impulse would be to take him out, that is yet another problem I need to deal with impulse, patience and temper... " I deal with this more and more as a dog trainer" Heck a little off the subject but I wish you could help me with my dog...
Thanks:melodrama
Amanda

Sorry, had to lie down for a but and also get two kids ready for bed. There is something NASTY going about and I caught it after both kiddoes were sick last week.

Pet shops are businesses and are more about the bottom line than for the animals This is how it was explained to me years ago - though still hard to accept at times. You have to do whatever you can NOT to purchase animals from a stopre no matter how it hurts... It just took me years to understand it the more I got involved in rescue.

So, you want to bring them down, you hit them financially and not do anything to make them keep selling animals.

If the PMs and PCs, Debbie's, PetLands, etc, of the world could not move the animals, they would stop selling them. But as long as humans are willing to take the easy route or the impulse route, then animals will be sold.

Now, working with rescues (or breeders, now I know many are against breeding here and that is fine, I always recommend rescue first when people contact me looking for whatever and I explain the need for patience) can take time. If you are looking for something specific, you may have to wait a long time. I looked for months for my Pyr. I was hooked up with rescues and breeders who supported rescue. I needed something specific. Well, one of the breeders was having two working dogs returned to her and offered me one. If this stroke of fate had not happened, I probably would have waited a year or more. Most humans are not willing to wait weeks or months.

So the retail sale of pets from stores is very appealing to many. Most do not want to wait weeks or months for a specific thing to come in or be born - simple as that. Humans do not understand that you have to wait if you are looking for specifics or want to be choosy. You hit that rescue looking for a young female wazzit that is purple and green, it may not be there if it is not commonly turned into a rescue. And if there is one coming in, there may be a waiting list of other wishing to adopt before you. It may be weeks or months before another purple and green female wazzit shows up. However, there are many young female red and blue wazzits... Also, shops will not turn you away as long as your money is green or credit good. Many have no idea why good rescues do all they do when interviewing homes. I did home checks and interviews for dog rescues.

Stores will only sell what sells well. So if PC and PM cannot sell animals well, they will stop carrying them.

A friend of mine's husband works in electrical supplies, they recently moved out to Washington state for a district manager's position. One thing her husband was good at was turning around stores. If a store was faltering in the district he was in, often the managers would ask him to overhaul it. This meant looking at inventory, what was needed, what was not, etc. Why waste space if something does not move? It is a waste of time and energy and revenue to keep it stocked. If something is not selling, it needs to be taken out and no longer sold.

Look at animals, they COST a store to maintain. If the sales drop off, they loose even more money because they have to feed and clean, etc. Hit sales and boost supplies over live animals and only supplies will be sold. But as long as you have people willing to go for the impulse buy or the easy way to get a pet even after rescues and breeders (good ones) have educated about why John Doe is not suited for X pet - stores will continue to sell them.

Humans are also selfish and want to do what they want even if it is NOT in the best interest of another life. I deal with this more and more as a dog trainer and behavioral consultant - and even after spending good cash and working for hours with me, it is amazing how few owners make needed changes and months later call me that the issues are getting worse.

As for shelters and saving two lives. Sadly, due to too many irresponsible owners not altering pets and too many irresponsible breeders churning out critters for the masses without consideration for form, function, health and other issues that go along with breeding, too many shelters still have to euthanize animals they cannot find homes for. There is no such thing as a no kill shelter - some just do not euthanize, but if they have to turn away an animal for lack of space or foster as the no kill I worked with had to on many occasions (at one time we had an estimated 6 month wait for an adult cat to be able to come in, who can wait that long to dump an animal - or who will?), these animals may wind up in a shelter that does euthanize on the premises (the lucky ones do, the unlucky may end up with a far worse fate than a chance at a home and a hopeful peaceful passing).

Anyhow, you adopt from a shelter and you not only give a second chance to a critter but you also open that space for another to get a chance as opposed to being abandoned and left to fend for itself or brought back and seriously negelcted and abused.

Homemom
10-13-05, 11:43 am
I understand what you are saying, like I said before I am new to this so it just floors me how people can be so ignorant towards animals. I have a lot to learn and eventually I will learn more it is just taking time. I do a lot on impulse and I guess my first impulse would be to take him out, that is yet another problem I need to deal with impulse, patience and temper... " I deal with this more and more as a dog trainer" Heck a little off the subject but I wish you could help me with my dog...
Thanks:melodrama
Amanda

Well, I have contacted PetCo Corporate Headquarters and let's see if I get a responce back. I decided to email the Corp HQ out of the issue of time and I have issues with getting my computer fax to work. I explained in the space allotted two issues I have experienced, overcrowding and bare minimal nutrition. (And I mentioned that since the store is next to a grocery store, there is no excuse for not getting fresh foods as I see PC staff in the grocery store all the time, let's put it this way, I am on a first name basis with the Starbuck's lady, two of the produce clerks and at least two checkers and a cart guy! Give an idea how often I am in the grocery store.)

I also explained that with gas, traffic and such (we have some of the worst traffic and higest gas prices in the country here) I find myself having to go to PC as opposed the the "indy" stores that do not sell animals. (Last time I went to an "indy" store to get supplies, it took me over 2 1/2 hours and 1/4 tank of gas - and I need my minivan for work so cannot get rid of it) I stated that I am seeing increasing issues at the store and a lack of response by the staff in regards to small animal care (oddly, the fish guys are great - there are two who are actual aquarium experts, one is involved with a local fish pond club and the other has refused to sell me fish because he did not like what he saw come in. Since both walk to work, this is the closest palce for them to work, but these guys will refuse to sell fish and will insist on larger tanks and proper set ups - but totally different when they are off!!!)

(And as for your dog, drop me a note (hope I can post the URL here) and I'll see what I can do to help. I do mostly manners and behavioral work, positive and humane. I also have resources to help find someone local to you. http://www.westwinddogtraining.com)

And if it makes you feel better, I have been doing this since the early 1980's and it took over a decade for things to really click. But it took being on both sides of the fence and knowing people who owned or managed pet shops to really see the light.

happimommaof2
10-13-05, 03:48 pm
Thanks I hope everything works out!!!!
Always near my heart,
Amanda