Thanks for the criticism. COMPLETELY unnecessary.

[fridzalone]

Originally Posted by VoodooJoint

If people were completely honest you would realize that this rarely happens. Space is not usually an issue as the cages can easily fit on top of a dresser with a little creative support. That leaves plenty of space underneath for the needed storage. Most people who say space is an issue are using it as an excuse. IF space really is that tight then they are unlikely to get a pet and if they do they will usually banish the poor thing outside.

Money is not really a problem either. I made my cage for under $7. I used recycled materials that are easily available just about anywhere and if not then there are easy substitutes that can be used. If I really tried I'm positive that I could have made my cage for under $1 or possibly even free. I am continually amazed at what people throw out. A lot of trash you see on the side of the road can be repurposed and kept out of a landfill.

I also have to wonder why you decided to open a long dead thread just to make a comment like this? We frown on dead threads being reopened unless the poster has something brilliantly pertinent to add. Please restrain yourself in the future.

Do you know how much money $7 equals to 2 days meals in here? Some people make it 3 days meals.

I'm sorry if i opened a long dead thread, i was misinformed by the checkbox under the message box.I won't do that in the future if its not allowed.

Originally Posted by Ly&Pigs

Have you not learned in the time you've been a member here that this site is all about appropriate sized caging? That's what the primary focus of this site is all about. Of course we are going to encourage anyone not having a large enough cage to get materials to build a proper sized cage.

Have you read our homepage: Guinea Pig Cages, Your Cavy At Home, it's all about why you need larger cages. Not everyone can free range their pigs or leave them out for many hours at a time.

I respectfully agree about encouraging people to get the appropriate sized cage, but not by forcing them for something they are not able to. I also encourage people to build standard sized cage when they ask my opinion, but I also can tolerate some reason.

Originally Posted by blackarrow

I think it's not wise for people to get guinea pigs if they have too little space or money to be able to take care of them properly.

What if the case is they get guinea pig before they know how to treat them properly?

[TwilightStar]

Originally Posted by fridzalone

Do you know how much money $7 equals to 2 days meals in here? Some people make it 3 days meals.

I'm sorry if i opened a long dead thread, i was misinformed by the checkbox under the message box.I won't do that in the future if its not allowed.



I respectfully agree about encouraging people to get the appropriate sized cage, but not by forcing them for something they are not able to. I also encourage people to build standard sized cage when they ask my opinion, but I also can tolerate some reason.



What if the case is they get guinea pig before they know how to treat them properly?

Meh, personally I think people shouldn't get animals if they can't provide the best care possible for them.
It's not fair to the animal.

[blackarrow]

Originally Posted by fridzalone

What if the case is they get guinea pig before they know how to treat them properly?

Then they should give them to someone who can.

It doesn't matter to the pig why the person can't meet their needs.

[fridzalone]

Originally Posted by TwilightStar

Meh, personally I think people shouldn't get animals if they can't provide the best care possible for them.
It's not fair to the animal.

So pets are only for rich people?

The problem is some people are misinformed about their pet at the time they bought it (there's no shelter in Indonesia). I'll tell you what the seller told me when I bought my piggies:

- Piggies eat everything, even some food that left from your dinner.
- They small and don't need lots of space.
- They don't get sick easily.
- They are easy to take care of.

So when they search information about their new pet then Voila, they get shock.


@Ly & Pigs :
Do you think I need to make new thread about it or should we continue this thread or maybe should we just leave this thread?
If you think its best to leave this thread, this will be my last post in here.

[TwilightStar]

"So pets are only for rich people?"

My family is middle class, my mom buys the pellets and hay and me and my sister save our lunch money for the veggies and vet fund,along with gift money.
If something happens to one of our pigs, they will have vet care because we save. But we miss out on lunch and some other (Pointless things) for our animals and we're fine with it.

So, no, pets aren't for the rich people. But pets aren't a guaranteed right to everyone.

[fridzalone]

Originally Posted by TwilightStar

"So pets are only for rich people?"

My family is middle class, my mom buys the pellets and hay and me and my sister save our lunch money for the veggies and vet fund,along with gift money.
If something happens to one of our pigs, they will have vet care because we save. But we miss out on lunch and some other (Pointless things) for our animals and we're fine with it.

So, no, pets aren't for the rich people. But pets aren't a guaranteed right to everyone.

The problem is middle class in here and middle class in your country are different. $421 USD per month is middle-high class in here. Most people paid under 3 dollars a day.

[Ly&Pigs]

No one was forcing anyone to do anything. I don't see where you get the forcing. Paula made suggestions on where to find grids and suggested alternative methods to coroplast. That hardly constitutes forcing. We give people suggestions and recommendations, it's up to the person to choose to follow them or not. It's not like we are out there holding a gun to someone's head forcing them to build a C&C. They can build alternative type cages like you did as long as it meets the minimum size for the amount of pigs.

There probably are hundreds if not thousands of pigs living in petstore cages right now, does it make it right, no. It just means the owners have not educated themselves on good care and go by the old standards. Some people go by what books tell them and most books out there are written by breeders/showers and contain bad information. Some people rely on friends or family for info but if they aren't educated about proper care either, it still ends up hurting the pigs in the end. I wish more people would research an animal before getting it, many do research just after they acquire a new pig(s). I found this forum because I bought a pig and wanted to do right by her.

[Dichotomy83]

Originally Posted by fridzalone

The problem is middle class in here and middle class in your country are different. $421 USD per month is middle-high class in here. Most people paid under 3 dollars a day.

Im pretty sure that most of the money quotations you have been given have been in US dollars. So obviously then, the conversion to your country's currency wouldnt be as expensive as youre thinking it to be.

As far as caring for pets...where there is a will, there is a way. This thread doesnt appear to be about the posters lack of money, but rather a lack of finding a way to make due with the space/time/money available.

[vicky2]

About the $421 a month pay.
Sorry, but I don't find that an excuse.
I don't have a job and pay for everything for her myself. I paid her $120 vet bill, her pellets, hay, veggies, accessories, additional toys, extra's, her cage.
Everything for the pigs doesn't have to be brand new. Wanted adds and thrift stores can be a one stop shop for all things piggy and all you have to do is go look.
If I can do it, I'm pretty sure you can.

[fridzalone]

Originally Posted by Ly&Pigs

No one was forcing anyone to do anything. I don't see where you get the forcing. Paula made suggestions on where to find grids and suggested alternative methods to coroplast. That hardly constitutes forcing. We give people suggestions and recommendations, it's up to the person to choose to follow them or not. It's not like we are out there holding a gun to someone's head forcing them to build a C&C. They can build alternative type cages like you did as long as it meets the minimum size for the amount of pigs.

There probably are hundreds if not thousands of pigs living in petstore cages right now, does it make it right, no. It just means the owners have not educated themselves on good care and go by the old standards. Some people go by what books tell them and most books out there are written by breeders/showers and contain bad information. Some people rely on friends or family for info but if they aren't educated about proper care either, it still ends up hurting the pigs in the end. I wish more people would research an animal before getting it, many do research just after they acquire a new pig(s). I found this forum because I bought a pig and wanted to do right by her.

I didn't find it forcing, I only tried to speak my mind about my disagreement. Sometimes when I read the threads in this forum it looks like all the rules about piggies care is a must and not suggestion or recommendation. The way people keep saying "must" or "have to" without considering their reason just made me read the meaning wrong way, and I'm sorry about that.
I really appreciate your post (this one), and I really hope the same thing with you. Thanks a lot

[fridzalone]

Originally Posted by vicky2

About the $421 a month pay.
Sorry, but I don't find that an excuse.
I don't have a job and pay for everything for her myself. I paid her $120 vet bill, her pellets, hay, veggies, accessories, additional toys, extra's, her cage.
Everything for the pigs doesn't have to be brand new. Wanted adds and thrift stores can be a one stop shop for all things piggy and all you have to do is go look.
If I can do it, I'm pretty sure you can.

I'm sorry but may I ask you where did you get your money?
What I see in here is, my friends who also have piggies are try very hard to buy the pellets, and hay, which imported and that makes it pricey. I'm the one who told them what's best for their piggies and encourage them to do more for their piggies. So I feel like I'm doing wrong if I still force them to spend more money on building an standard size cage if they can't afford it.

Personally, I feel very lucky that I'm able to give my best to my piggies and I hope they will too.

[vicky2]

I put spare change in a container or skip lunch like TwilightStar.
For two weeks, all I had for lunch was a bag of chips and a water bottle. It didn't really bother me but either way I had to do it to pay off the remaining cost of the vet.
You should tell your friends to try to buy hay locally and ask local shops for veggie scraps. That should save a bunch.

[fridzalone]

Originally Posted by vicky2

I put spare change in a container or skip lunch like TwilightStar.
For two weeks, all I had for lunch was a bag of chips and a water bottle. It didn't really bother me but either way I had to do it to pay off the remaining cost of the vet.
You should tell your friends to try to buy hay locally and ask local shops for veggie scraps. That should save a bunch.

Hahaha...I did that too, sometimes I only eat once a day so I'm able to give my best for my piggies...
The problem is there's no hay in Indonesia. People and farmers keep thinking that giving grass is enough. Besides we don't have winter so there's no need to stock some dried grass (at least that's what they think).
Veggies are pretty cheap, you can buy 3 bags of veggies with only 5 cents. So I think the main problem is only hay and pellets. We don't have good pellets to provide to our piggies...too bad..

By the way, i think we already out of topic. So, maybe we can just leave this thread. Sorry all for the inconvenience.

[Ly&Pigs]

Originally Posted by fridzalone

So I think it's not wise to force people to get the right size cage while the problem is space or money.

I based part of my last response on this very sentence. You used the word force so I was trying to figure out where you were getting that Paula was forcing her to do something.

Originally Posted by fridzalone

Sometimes when I read the threads in this forum it looks like all the rules about piggies care is a must and not suggestion or recommendation.

Some are musts like large cages, proper food, no dangerous accessories, etc. Others are suggestions like how much of something to feed, what kind of bedding to use, etc.

[Seonta]

Fridz, many people on this forum are very pro-animals. We want the best possible lives for our pets... or we do not get them. For instance I would love and adore having a horse, I have the room, the space, but as much as I would love to ride the animal on my own time I know that with my new job I would not be able to provide proper care, and I know I could not afford to worm on a regular basis, or get their shoes done on a regular basis- so at this point in my life I will not get a horse.
We are giving recommendations and advice on what needs should be met for people's guinea pigs. We do not need to defend our positions. People who get animals are responsible for their well being. Knowing the proper care before you get an animal is key to knowing if you can care for them. Acquiring information before obtaining an animal is responsible and will lead you to knowing if you can truly care for an animal. If however you do not do research until after wards it is on your shoulders to make things right for the animals that rely on you for survival.

[wigglesgiggles1]

I also save my birthday money, and holiday money to provide for my pigs. I buy their pellets, hay, veggies and asked for coroplast and cubes for my birthday. I also got fleece for christmas.
Every week I ride my bike to Foodtown and buy their veggies. I recently spent my babysitting money on a vet visit. Sometimes things are not easy but if you make the commitment you should make the effort to give good care. If you can't guinea pigs aren't for you.

[VoodooJoint]

Originally Posted by fridzalone

Do you know how much money $7 equals to 2 days meals in here? Some people make it 3 days meals.

As was already mentioned, the $7 I stated is in US dollars. As far as I can tell $7.00 Indonesian Rupiah (IDR) = 0.0007455 US Dollar (USD).

I think I also mentioned the whole "free" thing too. I'm certain there are items lying about in your country that can be used to build a decent cage.

Originally Posted by fridzalone

I respectfully agree about encouraging people to get the appropriate sized cage, but not by forcing them for something they are not able to.

How is anyone here "forcing" anyone to do anything? Last I checked this is a discussion on a forum on the internet. Until one of us from the forum shows up at someone's house and uses threats or intimidation to cause a resistant pet owner to build a better cage or do anything else to better their pets' lives and well being then the word "Force" does not apply.

Until such a time we will simply stick to the proven fact that larger housing and better care is better for animals and we will not find less then ideal caretaker practices as adequate.

[Paula]

Originally Posted by fridzalone

There are some cases where people don't have enough space or enough money to make the right size of cage.

Then why have the animal? If all a person is going to do is make excuses for not doing what's best, why have the pet?

I would love to have a Uromastyx, for example, but realistically I know I couldn't meet the needs of one, so I'm putting my desire aside because I couldn't provide the best care at this point in my life. I realize a lot of people get animals like guinea pigs as impulse buys, but once they realize that there's a better way to care for them than a small pet store cage and crappy food, I think they're obliged to find a way to do the best for the animal or rehome him/her.

Originally Posted by fridzalone

And some of my friends are don't have enough room to place the cage.

Then why have the animal?

Originally Posted by fridzalone

So I think it's not wise to force people to get the right size cage while the problem is space or money.

Again, I ask, then why have the pet?

Originally Posted by fridzalone

So pets are only for rich people?

Certainly not, but they should only be for people who will make the most minimal effort at providing them with proper space, food, and other care and not be pacified with the first excuse not to.

Originally Posted by fridzalone

The problem is some people are misinformed about their pet at the time they bought it (there's no shelter in Indonesia).

That happens here, too, and it's something that sites like this one exist in hopes of changing. And that doesn't speak for people (in any country) who know better and choose to go right on providing substandard care anyway, whatever the excuse might be.

Originally Posted by fridzalone

I'm the one who told them what's best for their piggies and encourage them to do more for their piggies. So I feel like I'm doing wrong if I still force them to spend more money on building an standard size cage if they can't afford it.

With all due respect, if they can't afford these most basic things, maybe they should reconsider having the animal. I know that may seem harsh, but it's not meant to be, so please at least consider it.

I realize we are in different countries, and I think it speaks volumes for you and your care for animals that you're here and trying to do everything right despite significant obstacles to doing so. Maybe you should encourage your friends that also have these animals to also find ways to do the best, as you have. You might be surprised with what you can come up with if you're creative.

[TallulahBear]

Do you guys want to know why this thread has resurfaced from back in April? I think Fridzolone is looking to argue for the sake of arguing.

[poopysmom]

I think each of us living in different places have different ways to make do.

I was born in M'sia (neighbour to Indonesia) and I have lived in Europe, Singapore, now, Australia and have travelled some.

Sometimes, you have to live in another place to understand the mentality of the people there. I am not trying to criticize anybody. So please just hear it from my experiences.

no offense to the Indonesian friend, but in Indonesia, the disparity between each class are very very obvious. If you are rich, you are filthy rich and if you are poor, you are more than dirt poor. There are NO government handouts (what is social security they may ask), massive corruption, very very very poor living conditions (way worst than you can imagine in the States - I have the "fortune" to see some of the so called slums when I was travelling the States, seriously, Indonesia's are far worse). We (both Malaysia & Indonesia) don't celebrate Christmas as a recognised holiday as we are both Islamic nations.

500 US a month in Indonesia and Malaysia is more than middle class living, it can be considered upper middle class. Most poor indonesians are lucky enough to even earn 100 USD a month and that sometimes meant feeding a whole family with that, sometimes a big family with that. Do note that Islamic faith do not believe in birth control.

10 USD a day traveling in Indonesia, you can eat like a king. 10 USD in the states, what can you get to eat like a king?

Its a tropical weather all year round. just one word. HOT. No temperate weather, no seasons. the stuff that grows in our countries differs from what can be grown in your country. Hay are all imported. Import = tax = $$$$. With the price to buy hay, you can probably eat like a king for a few days. Sad but true.

Houses, if you are rich, mansions (seen those mansions in jakarta? woah.... i think it can compete with white house) but if you are poor, bird cage it is.

Guinea pigs are considered rodents by most Asians. And rodents = pest. So most people believe cats, dogs, cattle even are a better investment than "rodents". So, who really wanted to keep them except certain people that really likes them? So, when demand is low, trying to find proper products for them become hard and expensive. basic rule of economics no?

I never keep guinea pigs when I was growing up in Malaysia or even when I was in Singapore for 5 yrs. Hamsters was my pet of choice, shorter lifespan, smaller area.

Moving to Australia, this is my first piggy experience and I try to give them the best that I can. Even then, I cannot afford to buy Oxbow timothy hay at 500 grams for 30.00 aud like few times a week. 500 grams can feed how many pigs? I have 4. would not last long. I cannot get Kleenmama's hay as Australia has a veeeeeeeery strict importing rules. If you have travelled to Aus/NZ before, then you should know that any food products (even processed one) are banned if you want to make it past the custom. I can follow the directions from this forum regarding the veg food chart, cage size, but I source my own hay (the girls get a mix of vetch, oaten, grass and clover from my local stockfeed) and I get my grain mix, not even pellet from my local shelter.

Our only single source of grids here, Bunnings, have stopped stocking grids (it is now a deleted item). God knows where we going to find grids next if the need arises.

I applaud fridzalone for trying to give her pigs the best care she can from Indonesia. I definitely know how hard it would be. Even from Aust, its quite hard to find stuff sometimes, let alone in Indonesia where guinea pigs are not as popular.

I also admire all the people here that are so passionate about proper piggy care. Definitely fuel my own enthusiasm and compassion for these small animals and to give them the right care.

It just sometimes, the forum I find can be quite harsh in the way people criticise other people without even understanding where they are coming from. Even to post this post, I am fear of that backlash that is going to happen. But people that are willing to join this forum, stay in this forum, and dare to ask questions despite knowing they might get whipped, give them a pat in the back because they dare to ask.

Having questions meant they wanted to change. I believe that is a good place to start.