quit the b*tching and do something about it

[tashagurl]

Wow Voodoo! I second everything you said.

Im not involved in any groups like that, but I try to help people and animals whenever I can. I do more now than I used to and that is mainly because of this site.

You have no right to judge us. You dont know us or what we are or are not doing.

[Auzziefreak]

I agree with access in that we could all do something a little more "official". Like making it so pet stores cannot have and sell animals unless they live up to certain standards in taking care of the animals they have in the store. And i think that anyone that wants to purchase a pet should have to go through a questionair of some sort..or something of the like..but the only way we can do this, is if we all do it.

[Access]

Originally Posted by Auzziefreak

I agree with access in that we could all do something a little more "official". Like making it so pet stores cannot have and sell animals unless they live up to certain standards in taking care of the animals they have in the store. And i think that anyone that wants to purchase a pet should have to go through a questionair of some sort..or something of the like..but the only way we can do this, is if we all do it.

I said that? Maybe we should also have the UN certify genocides as being OK if they meet certain standards. Maybe we should certify drug dealers and child pornographers too if they meet certain standards like not harming anyone and not exploiting children. Maybe we could certify forced child labor users as long as they meet certain standards like work days no longer than 20 hours. Get real.

Pet stores shouldn't be selling animals, period. I'd think the only type of 'certification' would be of the 'we don't sell animals, ever, period' variety. But in reality that's pretty obvious to the consumer, we don't need a label for that. I can tell just by walking into a store and looking around whether they sell animals or not.

"Buying" and "Selling" is for inanimate objects only, not living things. If I 'buy' something, it's mine and I can exploit it, throw it away or give it to someone else or sell it when I'm done with it. For pigs, we "adopt", we don't buy or purchase.

[John4216]

I personally think the diamond example is awful. The conditions in all the mines stinks and to blunt the only reason diamonds are worth anything is because we say they are. And nothing personal but join AI is nice but joining it is also no different than joining this forum. Unless you have gone to these places in person and in person, face to face, done something it is probably not a good idea to say "do something about it". I am a person who has "done something" about various issues with the last one taking me 8 years of being there in person, giving up a lucrative job, and doing the right thing. I think if you labeled your post a tad differently people would not get so offended. If you want to do something, then why dont you get as many people as you can to start an e-mail campaign against (petstore name here) or letters or in person....Try to get them to hand out care sheets, sell better cages, whatever helps.

[Auzziefreak]

[quote=Access]I said that? Maybe we should also have the UN certify genocides as being OK if they meet certain standards. Maybe we should certify drug dealers and child pornographers too if they meet certain standards like not harming anyone and not exploiting children. Maybe we could certify forced child labor users as long as they meet certain standards like work days no longer than 20 hours. Get real.

I think you should take your arogance to a different board and stop upsetting and insulting people.

[CavySpirit]

Actually, Auzziefreak's suggestion about a questionnaire before buying, is an excellent one. In fact, it's that idea the new SPARC organization will be based on.

I see a few issues here as it relates to pet stores.

#1 by far: The UNINFORMED, impulse buy at the pet store. This causes many, many problems and is the PREDOMINANT reason for the overpopulation problem. There are a number of factors that contribute to this situation, many of which could be addressed by a national organization/campaign.

• customer doesn't know what they are getting into
• customer thinks this is a disposable toy for their kids (in part due to animal size, in part due to cage size, in part due to price of the animal)
• customer buys all the wrong stuff
• customer buys one pig for a too small cage. pig is lonely, bored, does nothing, stinks up the cage every day . . .
• customer buys a pregnant or incorrectly sexed pig/s, ends up with babies
• customer is only a customer of the pet store because they are unaware that small animals can also be found at shelters and rescues.

#2: Too much supply. Keeps prices low, value low.

The vast majority of hobby breeders who claim to be responsible breeders are NOT. A responsible breeder screens their customers. A responsible breeder ensures that the animal that they bred will go into a good home. A responsible breeder does not treat their animals like commodities. I estimate that 95% of the ACBA members have no problem selling their animals to pet stores, brokers, and distributors and basically anyone who will buy them. Take a look at their websites. Take a look at the posts on their forums and groups.

It is NOT unusual at these cute, little fun shows where everyone wins ribbons and has a grand ole time, for distributors/brokers to be there buying culls by the dozens and sometimes a hundred or more.

=========================

I have two organizations planned. Each will address these two major components.

I'm not ready announce the second yet. But the first one is a going to address education on the front end. I'm not ready to go into details yet, but it's coming . . .

=========================

It was hard enough getting SB1357 passed in California which simply requires pet stores to hand out a care sheet with the sale of every animal.

We all need to do all we can to stop and slow down the demand for animals in stores. However, in recognition that the ultimate goal of no animals in pet stores is a long way off, we can tackle the problem ADDITIONALLY from a different, market-driven angle. That's what the new SPARC organization will be all about.

[DaCourt]

Originally Posted by Sparky

it would be nice if people read my additions and clarification before responding in a condescending fasion again.

education is indeed the key...

I find this so funny. Here you are telling us that Education is the key, yet you don't write with proper puctuation of capitalization. People may be willing to read all of your long posts if they were easier to read.

[mncavylover]

Originally Posted by Sparky

it would be nice if people read my additions and clarification before responding in a condescending fasion again.

Sparky, I did indeed read the rest of your posts. Please don't assume I just skipped right on down to the bottom. :) It's funny how condescending that statement was, don't you think? Now I'm not here to start a fight, and I didn't think I was being overly rude. I'm not mean by nature.

I read your posts, and here's what one says:

Originally Posted by Sparky

i acknowledge that and commend you, but yet, that is local work, and you cant say that we can effectively communicate these virtues, on a one to one level, to the entire pet owning population.

I think local work is great--if everyone worked locally, there would be widespread change, don't you think? I agree that perhaps we should all unite under one banner, but for now it seems you're just negating that this has the potential to do just what you want--to inform everyone. Again, I'm sorry if this seems snide, as it's not meant to be.

[Access]

[quote=Auzziefreak]

Originally Posted by Access

I said that? Maybe we should also have the UN certify genocides as being OK if they meet certain standards. Maybe we should certify drug dealers and child pornographers too if they meet certain standards like not harming anyone and not exploiting children. Maybe we could certify forced child labor users as long as they meet certain standards like work days no longer than 20 hours. Get real.

I think you should take your arogance to a different board and stop upsetting and insulting people.

I'm sorry if I came across that way, I was just trying to illustrate the folly of 'certifying' things that should not be happening at all. If you start certifying things that are inherently bad, then you are giving them at least some sense of legitimacy. Certified or not, we shouldn't even consider 'buying' a pig from a pet store.

[Auzziefreak]

cool, next time, illistrate in a way that isn't offensive.

[Sparky]

well, i apologize, for the harsh original statement, i was aggravated at the time, but i stand by what i have said.

as i said, i think all of you who are working hard to make things better for animals are very noble for your work, but yet, that is probably only 5% maybe less who make a significant effort.

i find it ridiculous that somebody is criticizing me on my grammar, i'm trying to do something that is forward, and i've been nothing but attacked, i realize my original post was rude, but my follow up posts i thought would compensate, but none of you seem to give damn.

also, i dont see why everyone finds it neccesary to criticize my humanitarian background. i lead a very active student amnesty group, and no, you dont have to go there face to face to make a difference. i dont know what you did that cost you so much, but i'm sure you couldnt have done it without the work of everyone back home.

I looked into SPARC and they are exactly the kind of organization i was thinking of.

sorry this all turned so nasty

" i'm just looking for ideas, not an argument..."

[Auzziefreak]

so..if you take the pet out of the pet store, whats going to happen then? People will only be flooding into breeders, and in return breeders will do what they do best; breed. I think that the spca is the only way to go, but i know several people who don't want a "used pet" having that said, you are going to have a lot of people going to breeders..to me, taking the animals out of the pet store is a good idea, but not realistic just yet. limiting the amounts of animals and creating much higher standards for pet stores to follow, and wether it be a questionair of a wating period of god only knows how long befor they can purchase a pet (hopefully eliminating impulsive pet buying), then maybe you will be getting somewhere. Goals aren't things that can be accomplished in a life time. haveing that said, push for something that might be slightly more realistic.

[Auzziefreak]

*and wether it be a questionair of some sort, or a waiting period of a week or two(eliminating impulsive buying) then maybe you will be getting somewhere.

[Access]

We'll, breeding shouldn't be going on either, see the other threads on this topic. In short, no breeding, no petstores selling pets. That's what we need to educate people for. How can there be an applicable standard for pet stores (selling pets) and for breeders (breeding) when these things are inherently bad and shouldn't be going on at all.

[John4216]

Well sparky your background was not being attacked by me. I am just pointing out to you your own double standards. Your post was offensive and implied that they had to do something more than what is being done here (without knowing really what is being done) and yet when that was turned around on you you state the opposite thing. I agree you dont have to be face to face to make a difference. I look forward to your response as to what your going to DO rather than post on here since you brought it up....or are you saying someone else should do it? And I was working "with the folks back home" for 8 years and what I did benefits us all hopefully. Of course we had the issue of people saying the same thing as "do something" yet they never took the lead. So I challenge your statements...take the lead and do something that others can follow/assist. Or have you really thought it all the way out yet? Its easy to say "do something" its 100% different to have to do it and do it right.

I look forward to hearing your plans for doing something :)

[Auzziefreak]

Originally Posted by Access

We'll, breeding shouldn't be going on either, see the other threads on this topic. In short, no breeding, no petstores selling pets. That's what we need to educate people for. How can there be an applicable standard for pet stores (selling pets) and for breeders (breeding) when these things are inherently bad and shouldn't be going on at all.

very true...

[Sparky]

Originally Posted by John4216

Well sparky your background was not being attacked by me. I am just pointing out to you your own double standards. Your post was offensive and implied that they had to do something more than what is being done here (without knowing really what is being done) and yet when that was turned around on you you state the opposite thing. I agree you dont have to be face to face to make a difference. I look forward to your response as to what your going to DO rather than post on here since you brought it up....or are you saying someone else should do it? And I was working "with the folks back home" for 8 years and what I did benefits us all hopefully. Of course we had the issue of people saying the same thing as "do something" yet they never took the lead. So I challenge your statements...take the lead and do something that others can follow/assist. Or have you really thought it all the way out yet? Its easy to say "do something" its 100% different to have to do it and do it right.

I look forward to hearing your plans for doing something :)

you might notice that i mentioned, i still stand by what i said, and less than 5% of the people here are active to the extent that some of you can boast. local action is virtous, but few have the capability to do so. what we need to do is come together under one banner, and speak with solidarity.

not everyone can adopt thirty cavies, not everyone can raise awareness in their community, so it's no sin that less 5% probably do this, but something simple, like letter writing, everyone can do. if an organization could function like AI. and the minimal effort of many made a great impact then that could mean great progressfor animal rights, this is what i hope SPARC could become.

no i am not going using a double standard, i stand by what i said, i wish we could do away with the snide, and condescending commments

and besides, it is not about my ideas, i wanted other ideas and i dont think i should be held accountable for coming up with something, but there you have it

[Susan9608]

Just a note -

Sparky, you mentioned that in England, there is an organization called the RSPCA (I think I got that right?), and that this organization fights for the humane treatment of animals ... and you seemed to think we need a group like that here in America.

There are many such groups here in America. PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals), FARM (Farm Animals Reform Movement), ALF (Animal Liberation Front), HSUS (Humane Society of the United States), WWF (World Wildlife Fund), Best Friends Animal Sanctuary .... I could go on and on and on and on, but I imagine you get the message.

There are hundreds of animal rights groups that not only act locally and nationally, but also globally to protect and defend the animals of the world.

And, there *are* laws that were enacted to protect animals ... a prime example is the Animal Welfare Act. Unfortunately, our law makers, acting on behalf of their constitutents (forgive my poor spelling), generally vote *against* animal friendly legislation. Recently, a whole-sale gutting of the animal welfare act occurred when our law makers chose to exclude birds, rats, and mice from the protection afforded to animals under this law.

More people in this country are NOT concerned about the welfare of animals ...and why? Usually because they just don't know any better. They don't truly know what happens to animals in labs ... they don't truly know what happens to animals in slaughterhouses ... they don't truly know what happens to animals in shelters or pet stores or in puppy mills or fur factories. They don't know, and they are more comfortable *not* knowing because it allows them to go about their lives, not having to change the way they do things.

That's why sites like this are so important ... because this site is an in-your-face, rapid-fire education on the consequences of pet stores and purposeful animal breeding. It is only through education that people are brought out of their comfort zone to enact a true change.

Good intentions aren't good enough - what are *you* doing to help the animals? What national/global group are you organizing? What protests are you setting up? How publically are *you* taking a stand?

You say that we need to act in solidarity .... but every change begins with one person ... one person CAN make a difference.

[CavySpirit]

Thank you, Susan. Extremely well said. Also, IDA (In Defense of Animals) is a great org and has been very inspirational and motivational for me.

[Sparky]

i was reading your post and thought it was very informative, as i had no idea that these organizations existed in the U.S, but i must say the first two of the last 3 lines were a bit personal