Arrogance and Hypocrisy?

[Noodles]

Don't get me wrong, I am pro-adoption and express concern in the area of animal cruelty, but I can't help but notice a real "turn-off" in the animal activism community.

Many animal activists, including the ones on this site have an air about them that just turns my stomach. I've detected endless arrogance and almost snobbery when it comes to arguing about animal welfare issues. The fact of the matter is that while it seems as though people here think that they are superior to other animal owners because they do things a certain way, there is another way to convey your knowledge about providing great guinea pig care without making others feel like horrible pet owners. While some people do their best to provide good care, I've found that no matter how much research is done, you'll never know everything.

Another point I wanted to make was about so-called "animal activists". I absolutely love animals and nothing disturbs me more or breaks my heart more than knowing that somewhere in the world, some animal is being abused or killed senselessly. But I can't help but notice that many activists are also hyprocrites. It's good to have a passion and to express that passion, but these people that speak so strongly about petstores or breeding and refuse to participate in either are most likely supporting animal cruelty in many other faucets of their lives. Unless you are completely vegan, do not take any medicine, wear any makeup, and refuse to shop at many retailers, you are still supporting animal cruelty in one way or another. When you wake up in the morning and eat your egg omlete and drink milk, you're supporting the veal industry, the dairy industry, and the poultry industry, all of which have cruel and inhumane practices. When you put on your leather shoes and perfume, you're supporting the leather industry and animal testing. It's nearly impossible to live a life where no animal is hurt by our decisions.

So if you really want others to listen to your cause, get off your high-horse, take a look at your own life, and show others through example.

[Weatherlight]

Unless you are completely vegan, do not take any medicine, wear any makeup, and refuse to shop at many retailers, you are still supporting animal cruelty in one way or another.

Actually, even if you do all that, you're still causing some animal suffering and death. It's physically impossible to literally live without harming animals. Of course, this doesn't mean you should live with the attitude of "**** it, if I can't save everything then I might as well torture and kill whoever I feel like."

How has this arrogance been detected? What sorts of things do people say? Are you interpreting tone online, or have you talked to groups of activists face to face?

As for making some people feel like their current efforts are inadequate, in two words: they are. In the case of neglecting guinea pigs, no matter how much you sugarcoat, the message is still plain: "You need to do x and y better. Your current standard of care is unfair to your cavies." No one likes hearing this, as far as I know. And I've given up on "nice" ways of saying "you neglect your dependents," "you're an animal abuser," "you kill animals by doing this," "you're supporting child slavery when you buy that," or "you're only saying that because you haven't learned about the subject." I was never good at sugarcoating, anyway :P Half the time I tried, people told me I sound condescending! So I'll be honest and just hope they don't hate me. And most importantly, hope they take something good from it.

It also bothers me when people act personally superior to others, especially when their reasoning is fallacious and/or based on lies. But take even an extreme example--Person 1 takes excellent care of hir gpigs and loves them very much, eats factory farmed products every day, buys personal care products tested on animals, delights in stomping insects and spiders, and beats hir dogs frequently. Person 2 doesn't take care of hir gpigs, but is kind, well-intentioned, vegan, and loves and takes wonderful care of hir dogs. Person 1 tells Person 2 that they really need to get decent food, improve housing, take the pigs to a vet, etc. If anyone decides that Person 2 must be doing a great job after all because Person 1 is horrible, they're the ones who are wrong. And when you tell Person 1 to stop talking like that, and that they are wrong because of all the other things they do, there's a name for that: ad hominem tu quoque.

At least when discussing things like cavy care, why can't people all just talk facts, logic, behavior, and plans of actions, and give up on gossip, ad hominem, and constant comparisons of who is better in what way?

[CF#5]

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi

[Guinea Lover 27]

Noodles -

I feel exactly the way you do and couldn't have put it better myself.
I visit here frequently for information - but am often times turned off - literally shaking my head in amazement at some of the attitudes others here express. Often times many folks here come off as bitter and angry - more than wanting to help others.

If someone posts something unknowingly about a pet store, breeding, improper caging or diets they are immediately jumped on and attacked for not having read the rules or for being uneducated - almost like they are harming their guinea pigs on purpose.

I too often wonder the exact question you posed about people being hypocritical to what they preach - for example - Dogs & Cats - do they have them? If so - what food do they feed them since these pets REQUIRE animal matter in their diets. Depending on what you believe - some animals were put here on the earth to feed humans and of course other animals. However - I also feel it's disturbing to know how some animals are raised and abused just to be butchered.

Anyway - I just wanted to let you know you are not alone in your feelings - however this forum has been this way for a very long time and there are lots of other forums out there who aren't this way. I choose to continue to come because despite the fact that I personally don't believe with the way they approach others at times - they do have good intentions, they are very knowledgable and compassionate and they do want to inform people about the better ways to raise and care for their guinea pigs.

So - I choose to just take everything at face value. I come here for the good, I visit "The Kitchen" for a laugh and try not to let things rile me up. And remember - quite a few people come to the forum and join just to ruffle feathers and start fights. People will always defend what they believe in and love - passionately - and people here love their pigs.

You'll find the same attitudes in animal forums online from hermit crabs, to rats, to birds, to cats, to dogs, to horses and more.

So stick around - because you are not alone in your feelings and just because your attitude is different from others doesn't mean you can't fit in. If everyone on the forum felt the exact same way about everything - it would get pretty boring! And Heck - just like what CF posted... if you want to see change - then be the change!

:)
GL27

[CF#5]

Originally Posted by Guinea Lover 27

Dogs & Cats - do they have them? If so - what food do they feed them since these pets REQUIRE animal matter in their diets.

This is actually a common misconception. Dogs and cats need special supplements, but they can thrive on a vegan diet. I don't know all that much about it, but this page can explain it.

Dog and Cat Food - Meatless Meals for Dogs and Cats

You can also find a ton of information about it by doing a web search.

[Guinea Lover 27]

CF - Thanks for that link. I'll check it out...

However - I'd love to see some information regarding long term effects.

Many animals people keep as pets these days are meat eaters - or should be.

Snakes on a vegan diet? Ferrets? Even box turtles are meat eaters in the wild. But I'll check out the link - will be interesting.

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by Noodles

So if you really want others to listen to your cause, get off your high-horse, take a look at your own life, and show others through example.

But in all this, who are you to say such a thing? Do you practice what you preach or is it a case of do as I say but not as I do? Do you lead by example?

Forgive my curtness but this is by no means the first time a relatively new poster has come on here and made such a post.

[ArtisticRainey]

The fact of the matter is that while it seems as though people here think that they are superior to other animal owners because they do things a certain way, there is another way to convey your knowledge about providing great guinea pig care without making others feel like horrible pet owners.

What you need to understand is that many of the people have been on this site for years, and have been dealing with the same issues over and over again, the same arrogance, the same neglect and lack of understanding. While it would be admirable for these people to have unending patience, the sheer amount of times they have had to say the same thing to people who just don't care can but only wear them down. It gets to the point where it's not possible to 'be nice' any more, especially if people would bother to search the boards in order to find answers to their questions that have already been given.

I've detected endless arrogance and almost snobbery when it comes to arguing about animal welfare issues.

Where?

While some people do their best to provide good care, I've found that no matter how much research is done, you'll never know everything.

You're absolutely right. No one can ever know everything.

Unless you are completely vegan, do not take any medicine, wear any makeup, and refuse to shop at many retailers, you are still supporting animal cruelty in one way or another.

Even if someone does do these things, what about all of the other aspects of life that contribute to a nonvegan lifestyle? When you walk you squash bugs. When you drive you do the same. You breathe in bacterium that are destroyed by your body's defenses. What about the animals who make habitats in crops, only for those crops to be destroyed to feed vegans? It is not possible to be completely vegan. As you said, you can never know anything, and in the same vein you can never lead a fully vegan lifestyle. Human life breeds animal cruelty no matter how you try to stop it.

So, what do we make of this? You aren't a hypocrite if you're doing the utmost of your ability to prevent animal cruelty in your life, as far as you can.

So if you really want others to listen to your cause, get off your high-horse, take a look at your own life, and show others through example.

That's exactly what people on this site do. Why don't you do the same?

If someone posts something unknowingly about a pet store, breeding, improper caging or diets they are immediately jumped on and attacked for not having read the rules or for being uneducated - almost like they are harming their guinea pigs on purpose.

One of the responsibilities people have when they join this forum is to read the rules. When they don't, of course they'll be told to. Yes, people cannot be attacked for pure ignorance -- if they do something and had no idea they were supposed to read the rules. But at the top of every forum on this site there are sticky threads, many with titles like, 'New Members Must Read'. When people see these, don't bother reading them, and post about things they should have known or known were inappropriate had they read the rules, then they deserve to be admonished. I don't go out on the road without knowing the Highway Code. If I knocked someone over on my pedal bike because I didn't read the part that says cyclists are supposed to follow the rules of the road and STOP at pedestrian crossings, the law would be justified in giving me a slap on the wrists. It's much the same here.

I too often wonder the exact question you posed about people being hypocritical to what they preach - for example - Dogs & Cats - do they have them? If so - what food do they feed them since these pets REQUIRE animal matter in their diets.

If a vegan becomes a carer for a carnivore, not giving them the sustenance they require would be cruel (unless they believe in the vegan animal diet -- I won't comment on that and here I will assume that dogs and cats do require meat). The big difference is that dogs and cats are just that: CARNIVORES. They require meat. Humans are OMNIVORES. They can survive and thrive without meat in their diet. Do I think a vegan feeding their dog meat is being a hypocrite? No. I think they are caring for the animal in an appropriate way, and I also think that said vegan would have done everything in their ability to source the dog/cat's food from a non-factory farmed source. It would be hypocritical for a vegan who preaches about animal cruelty and the importance of adoption and caring for abandoned animals to turn away a carnivore in desperate need.

A more extended discussion of this issue can be found here: http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...egan-pets.html

[Guinea Lover 27]

AR -

I agree people should "read the rules". If they all did - many of the posts we see here wouldn't exist. Infact, if they used the search button - it's quite possible no one would ever post again - or at least not very often, besides posting pigtures and talking about their own experience. There is so much great info here - right at our fingertips - but generally people are going to join and jump right into posting - even avoiding the introductions (I've done this - sorry folks)... and without reading the rules... except the rules here are quite obvious - and the general tone is even more obvious. But you will always have those who don't care to look first or just plain old don't have good forum manners.

[Weatherlight]

Dogs & Cats - do they have them? If so - what food do they feed them since these pets REQUIRE animal matter in their diets.

CF#5 is correct. All 3 cats in my home are vegan. They eat commercial nutritionally complete cat foods, sometimes recipes given with a commercial supplement that is nutritionally complete when used according to instructions (Ami kibble, Evolution canned, Vegecat pH).

Evolution feeds its products to rescue ferrets. Reportedly they do well on it. However, the founder is a bit of an idiot in some ways.

Long term? These vegan foods have been available since the 80s. Some older cats and dogs have been on them their whole lives and are healthy.

This is a much more comprehensive site, fairly well researched and cited. A lot is, of course, based on the personal experiences of vets, rescuers, etc.

One manufacturer had a university test its food: Veganpet » Scientific Evaluation

Study done by some people at Department of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia and published in JAVMA: Vegetarian Cats


People seem most persuaded by anecdotes--a common human trait, I guess--and here you go:

View Album - Vegan Cats & Dogs

Case Histories of Veggie Dogs & Cats


Personally, I'd avoid having to feed large amounts of corpses to an animal. If I have an animal in heartworm territory and it is recommended they use a preventive, I'd choose a safe (for my animal) nonvegan oral preventive over a risky injectable. If one of my anatomically carnivorous/omnivorous animals develops allergies/intolerance to legumes, grains, some fruits, most vegetables, nuts and seeds, etc and the only option is a diet high in animal products, I'd force myself to do it. If I was bad with prevention and an animal had external parasites, or I took in an infested animal, the poor things will have to be murdered and I hope so much that fleas aren't sentient. I even *gasp* buy non-vegan gpig pellets (at the least, vitamin D3, possibly other stuff in there), although I didn't think about that when I got my girls. And if I must choose between my gpigs' health vs the lives of earthworms, spiders, and insects (at best--gardening in my yard) and all sorts of wildlife, trapped, shot, and poisoned (commercially grown produce), I'll choose my gpigs. Why? Partly because I am selfish and have greater emotional investment in my family, no different from racists, countryists, sexists, etc. Partly because naive immediate utilitarianism doesn't work in this world. I believe by raising nonhuman dependents to the status of full family members, I'm setting a (relatively) good example, and by otherwise avoiding harming those not lucky enough to be part of my family, I'll let myself sleep at night.

Sorry, homeless snakes. I'll never encourage capturing or breeding any of you. And for those of you who need to be rescued, I hope science can develop a healthy vegan diet, complete with non-animal cholesterol.


Aside from the whole non-human animals eating vegan diets thing, I wanted to comment on this:

Humans are OMNIVORES.

Only in terms of what many of them eat now. Anatomically frugivorous.

It would be hypocritical for a vegan who preaches about animal cruelty and the importance of adoption and caring for abandoned animals to turn away a carnivore in desperate need.

I don't think so. I think caring for abandoned animals is important but I do not claim that anyone is obligated to always take in every homeless animal in the world. Else I'd be a hoarder with as many of the 4 or 5 million cats and dogs to be "PTS" this year as I could cram into my home, not to mention the rabbits (#3 species in this country, I believe) and birds (various parrots together make up #4, if I recall correctly) and other animals. As horrible as I feel when I turn away from a sentient being in whose life I could have made a difference if I bothered--whether I look the animal in the eyes face to face, look at hir picture online, hear hir name or ID number, or just know of hir likely existence abstractly--I do it to billions. I would hardly hesitate to do it to one snake.

But you will always have those who don't care to look first or just plain old don't have good forum manners.

I guess that would be me.

Seriously, um, I'm lazy.


And another note (my thoughts are all over the place today, sorry): not practicing what one preaches is not the same as being a hypocrite, although the latter is sometimes used to describe the former. I hope either it becomes accepted in this language and there is some standardized way to differentiate between the two meanings, or people use the word "hypocrite" correctly.

[ArtisticRainey]

Quote:
Humans are OMNIVORES.
Only in terms of what many of them eat now. Anatomically frugivorous.

All right then, humans are generally accepted to be omnivores by those including myself who are not educated otherwise.

I don't think so. I think caring for abandoned animals is important but I do not claim that anyone is obligated to always take in every homeless animal in the world.

Neither do I, nor was that my implication.

not practicing what one preaches is not the same as being a hypocrite, although the latter is sometimes used to describe the former.

hypocrite [hip-oh-krit] Noun
a person who pretends to be what he or she is not [Greek hupokrinein to pretend] -- hypocrite - definition of hypocrite by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

If one does not practice what they preach, then surely they are pretending to be someone they are not.

Then again, language is entirely subjective. Dictionaries are not the authority on it.

Anyway, I digress.

[GuineaAddict]

Originally Posted by Guinea Lover 27

Even box turtles are meat eaters in the wild.

I think for me you've hit the nail on the head. These animals should not be made to eat a vegan diet. It is natural for these animals to eat meat in the wild so how is it our right, just because we're humans and "own" these animals, to force them on vegan diets and feed them special vitamins and supplements. And who says those "supplements" you are giving them aren't actually harming them in the long run, possibly cutting down their life spans, rather than keeping them "healthier". Being vegan does not instantly mean being "healthier" for every animal in the world. Haven't you guys ever heard of the food chain? It's a natural phenomenon, not something you should be forcing animals to stop.

[Alusdra]

Ignoring that dogs and cats are very far from a 'natural' species- if you were going to feed them what would consist of their 'wild' diet it would include songbirds, frogs, bugs, snakes- not chickens. Certainly not cows. (Though the image of a domestic cat trying to kill a cow is rather amusing). Basically it is impossible for a person to reproduce in captivity a 'wild' diet. So why not go with a vegetarian diet?

So long as the pet food has undergone AAFCO feeding trials for the appropriate life stages, then have at it. I'm still a bit skeptical about cats and ferrets on a vegetarian diet (as they are strict carnivores) but if the science is there that animals can thrive on the diet, then there is nothing 'wrong' with it. Wrong is any diet that does not meet the nutritional needs of the animal, not some romantic sense of what they 'should' eat, what is 'natural'. (Incidentally, animals fed only skeletal meat end up with severe bone problems and weakness due to the skewed Calcium:Phosphorus ratio.)

[gpigluver14]

However - I'd love to see some information regarding long term effects.

Many animals people keep as pets these days are meat eaters - or should be.

I'm pretty sure the longest living dog was a vegan. That definitely rules out that pets on a balanced vegan diet are unhealthy.

[cookie_gal]

Okay, so we can't feed the identical original diet but we should at least feed as similar as we can. WE have no right to alter an animals diet so drastically by feeding vegan/ vegetarian diets. Who are we to play God and inflict our beliefs on the dog. Its out of order.

Yes some may do well on those diets but what about the need for hard stuff to clean the teeth etc? no veg is as hard as a good bone.

[piggly wiggly]

cookie-gal, I agree. Just because a dog can live a long life on a vegan diet, does not mean it is the best for them. Jus like with guinea food, they can live on nutriphase, but it is not that good for them. An above post said that the vegan or veg diet has all these supplements, how can that be good for them? It's like only feeding kids vitamins. I think if an animal is a carnivore, they should get the highest quality of food they need.

[Biscuit]

I'm not sure how I feel about the cats and the vegan diets. I know that until I have proper nutrition without animal products worked out for myself, I won't be trying it on my cat because he doesn't have a choice. I'm a pretty big failure currently at the veg thing, because I'm getting dizzy everytime I move and feel weak all the time. If I'm too idiotic to do it right for myself, I definitely won't be trying it for my cat yet.

To address the point that we shouldn't be trying to force a vegan diet onto them...we've already domesticated them a gazillon other things that aren't natural for them. Unless they go out and kill their own food, it's just as unnatural to feed them some stuff out of a can. Most of the major cat food brands are incredibly unnatural even though they include meat, they are primarily made up of grains and high in carbohydrates that cats don't need. So I wouldn't stress the naturalness of what we feed our cats at this point, heh.

On the original topic, I can see what you mean. I disagree about those improperly caring for their guinea pigs because most of those situations that person gets defensive regarding simple advice, or ignores advice and education opportunity. However, I think it is very plausible to read an arrogance into the posts of a few here regarding animal rights/welfare issues. But, it is the internet, you can't hear their voices. There are also a lot of different people, opinions, issues, and demeanors here; you won't like them all. You won't understand them all. You will perpetually misunderstand some. Such is the way of internet message boards. If we had less expectation of always getting along all the time, we would get along more.

[Cherish]

I think the main problem with most of the Preachers, is a blatant lack of education.
There are a lot of people on this forum in particular, who look down upon other people that don't live their lives the same way they do. Some (not all, but some) of the vegetarians in particular are unbelievably ignorant.

For example, they talk about, and base their opinions on, biased propaganda put out by immoral organisations such as PETA, and believe all the so-called "information" organisations like that put out, without taking the time and making the effort to actually look into it themselves.

At the end of the day, all they're achieving by acting in such an arrogant, self-important way, is making other vegetarians/vegans/animal rights activists look bad, and giving them a bad reputation.

Sure, if you want to live one way, good for you.
But don't try and preach your views at other people, especially people that know more about the subject than you do. You just make yourself look silly.



With regards to guinea pig care, people need to remember that there's a difference between "sugarcoating" and being deliberately harsh.

"As for making some people feel like their current efforts are inadequate, in two words: they are. In the case of neglecting guinea pigs, no matter how much you sugarcoat, the message is still plain: "You need to do x and y better. Your current standard of care is unfair to your cavies." No one likes hearing this, as far as I know. And I've given up on "nice" ways of saying "you neglect your dependents," "you're an animal abuser," "you kill animals by doing this," "you're supporting child slavery when you buy that," or "you're only saying that because you haven't learned about the subject." I was never good at sugarcoating, anyway :P Half the time I tried, people told me I sound condescending! So I'll be honest and just hope they don't hate me. And most importantly, hope they take something good from it."

That doesn't help anyone, though.
If you're any good with words (and if you're not good with words, what the hell are you doing on a forum?) you can find ways of saying things without being unnescessarily harsh, but by still being firm and getting your point across.
If you speak in a rude, offensive way to people, they just think "wow! that forum's full of bitches." They leave, they never come back, and they ignore all of your advice.

Why? Because nobody cares about the opinion of someone that has proven themselves to be a jerk, and therefore unworthy of their respect.

[crazywiggy]

Wow - so many things to comment on!!!

Vegan pets:

I have already made my point on a previous thread so I will try to be brief here. Personally, I believe that all animals in human care should be fed an approprite diet. For carnivorous species this means a meat based diet. I am sorry to say I am not entirely convinced that a vegan diet is healthy for dogs / cats / ferrets etc. Even if it can be - I still don't like it. To me, we have a "duty of care" to provide our pets with a proper diet - regardless of our own personal food choices. Again in my personal opinion only, I therefore believe vegans can either choose not to keep carnivorous animals as pets (and avoid the whole issue) or choose to keep them but feed them meat. I don't see either option as hypocritical. No offense to anyone intended, but I personally can not morally justify feeding a carnivorous animal a vegan diet.

Activist hypocrisy:

I agree with previous comments that we can not be perfect and never kill any living organism. That does not mean we shouldn't try to reduce our impact, nor does it make us hypocrites.

The term "hypocrite" is misleading in this case I think. We all have our own personal beliefs, opinions, etc. and base our own actions (and what we recommend to others) on these beliefs.

I will use myself as an example. I am not a fan of animal rights. I have no problem with people who are pro-animal rights, it just isn't my personal belief. However, I am an animal welfare supporter. My actions, and recommendations to others, are based on this concept.
I have no problem with the concept of killing animals for food. I do object to keeping animals in tiny barren cages for profit. So yes, I eat meat, but I buy high welfare meat. To an animal rights person, I am a monster killing helpless animals for my own taste buds. To many people, who don't think twice about animals at all, I am fussy. But whatever people think of me, I am not a hypocrite because my actions are in line with my beliefs.
Were I a hypocrite, I would be raving at everyone to feed their piggies a proper diet, keep them in a large c+c etc without actually doing this for my own piggies. I do not tell people to do things I would not do myself, or not to do things that I do.

I have never seen any of the usual members of this forum being hypocritical.

Arrogance and "turn-off":

Now this I do half agree with. There is a considerable difference between trying to genuinely educate someone and ranting and raving. Being honest, and blunt, is not an excuse to be downright rude and obnoxious.
Noodle is totally right about this much - if someone comes here looking for help and advice and immediately gets insulted and yelled at (in a manner of speaking) they will leave. Simple as. They won't learn anything, they won't bother reading the rest of the info on the forum. They will assume we are all a bunch of extremist, obnoxious morons and walk away with nothing. Their animals will continue to suffer - suffering that could have been prevented had we gone about it the right way.

I appreciate Artistic Rainys point - I often find myself getting frustrated at seeing the same questions and ignorance etc over and over again. I totally agree it is easy to lose patience - but we should at least try not to.

Ignorance is widespread. Just look at basic piggie care. The ONLY good piggie care info is here, and the links on here (eg GL). EVERY other website, book, pet store care sheet, etc is telling people WRONG info. A new guinea pig owner could have read every book available and checked out dozens of websites and still be guilty of neglect through no fault of their own. They sure as hell don't deserve to be attacked and vilified.

Anyway, I fully agree that people should do the responsible thing and research thoroughly before getting any animal. I think they should read the important info, stickies, guidelines, rules etc. of the forum before they start posting - and then abide by them. And I have certainly seen many newbies, who have done none of these things, get really over-defensive as soon as anyone tells them they are wrong.
Ignorance I can forgive - we all need to start learning somewhere. I just can't abide rudeness, arrogance or pathetic childish tantrums - from either side.

Finally, Biscuit makes an excellent point - this is a website, we don't have tone of voice, body language etc to go on. It is sometimes very difficult to read peoples intentions or attitudes online and it is easy to misunderstand or be misunderstood. But to me, this is all the more reason to make the effort.

To conclude, I just think being an animal activist should not mean you have to be an a**!

[Guinea Lover 27]

Great post Crazy!
It was very well recieved and I agree with it completly.