My Take on a 'Breeder Friendly' Site

[sasnpipp]

I just had the link in my intro and rabbit link request thread deleted, I'm an Admin at a large rabbit site deemed 'breeder friendly', so I thought I'd throw my two cents into the mix. This is a slightly edited version of a PM sent to the person here who pulled the link.

A reference in the links thread surmises that the site used to be non-breeder and had changed. It's the opposite. The owner of the original site started it as a byproduct of her breeder-skewered magazine. It gravitated to a pet site.

I'm personally a rescuer, a vegetarian and a moderate animal rights activist. I'll never condone PETA as long as they euthanize, and I take umbrage with the HRS branches and rescues that will see bunnies euthanised rather than allow placements in outdoor sanctuaries. I find the inflexibilites (and 'control' issues) of rescues in general make them their own worst enemy.

IMO, pet stores are a far greater evil than breeders. Somebody purchasing from a responsible breeder or adopting from a rescue has done the research (and is far more likely to get proper instruction and future monitoring) than an impulse buyer at a store.

When I took over the site in question two years ago, I created a number of sub-forums, including one called the Rabbitry and moved all the posts regarding reproduction into that section – mostly involving raising accidental litters, ‘what breed is my bunny’ questions, a bit of genetics talk and some 4-H kids seeking info.

The section STRONGLY encourages neutering and spaying and emphatically disapproves of any indiscriminate breeding. Commercial breeding is greatly discouraged, any ‘production’ mentions are banned outright. There are no rabbits for sale on any level.

However, two breeders helped make the site the what it is today – one of the most knowledgeable on the Internet – by generously offering so much of their time and vast experience to rabbit newbies and veterans. I can’t begin to count the number of lives they’ve saved, especially in the early days. We have mostly medical and professional rescue personnel manning the Infirmary now, but responsible breeders will never be vilified.

Many breeder members are also rescuers and transporters and a large source of rescue donations – cash and supplies. The rescue section – Rescue Me – encourages their help, and they come through when needed. (This past week alone, 15 ‘meat’ bunnies in cages too small for them to even turn around, hours away from slaughter, owe their lives to a breeder stepping in to house them until the Rescue section could mobilize and find pet homes -- which we did).

Several breeders (with gentle persuasion) have converted their facilities from rabbitries to rescues. This is the result of good relations. Change works better from the inside.

Most breeder posts discourage more than encourage reproduction. A genetics expert monitoring the Infirmary will present a strong case to less experienced breeders to stop reproducing various lines, pointing out their predisposition to health issues. Kids looking to have ‘cute babies’ (who won't listen to 'raving animal rights loonies') are told about the high risk of complications and made very aware of the potential loss of the mother (in gruesome detail). When the advice isn’t heeded, or breeding is unintentional, they ensure the safe birth and continued well being of the new family.

Banning and vilifying breeders does little good, and sites banning the mere mention of breeding do less good. In perspective, animal testing is obviously evil, but we still have a Library section on proper habitats and enrichment for lab rabbits.

Most importantly, the site is pretty much the best forum out there for medical emergencies and health and welfare issues. It's large, it's manned 24/7, and the people advising bunny slaves are veterinary workers, veteran rescuers, rehabbers and educators. The large membership (5400) provides a myriad of experiences to augment this advice.

It's also been extremely successful (due to some very hard work) on the rescue and rehome front. We're hampered by what I see as ridiculous problems with the Bunderground transport people not allowing breeders to volunteer, so we've been largely on our own, but I think just about everybunny in a tight spot has been rescued/rehomed.

Our development plan has been all business -- saving lives, rescuing bunnies in distress, promoting good health and educating rabbit owners.

Not including the site in existing links files is penalizing the wrong entities -- the bunnies and their caregivers.

sas

[VoodooJoint]

Originally Posted by sasnpipp

A reference in the links thread surmises that the site used to be non-breeder and had changed. It's the opposite. The owner of the original site started it as a byproduct of her breeder-skewered magazine. It gravitated to a pet site.

This seems to be a major issue for you. I apologize if I made a mistake when looking over the original site, before the changes, and missed the breeding references. Regardless, the result is the same.

Originally Posted by sasnpipp

Banning and vilifying breeders does little good, and sites banning the mere mention of breeding do less good.

We do not ban breeders nor vilify them. We do speak the truth about the inherent issues with breeding and showing and take a firm stance on not allowing breeding/showing to be encouraged or condoned, in any way, on this website.

This is how we run THIS site. You can run your site however you like but a link to it will not be allowed here.



Since you posted your PM to me I may as well post my unedited reply to you.

Originally Posted by VoodooJoint

I'm certain your forum is very good and very well run. However our rules stand. The owner of this site does not want links to forums or websites that support breeding or showing and I agree with her.

Rabbits are the 3rd most common animal in shelters and recent research suggests that they may be the #1 most abandoned species of animal (even over cats and dogs).

It's one thing to help people that find themselves the caregiver to an unwanted or surprise pregnancy in their rabbit. Even this website and several others that don't support breeding do that while holding a firm stance on "no purposeful breeding". It's another to help and/or encourage people, in any way, to purposely breed.

For example Guinea Lynx is the quintessential medical board for guinea pigs and they hold a firm "no breeding" stance. It is very possible to run a forum successfully in that manner.

We are aware that breeders will continue to breed but we refuse to jump on the "let's all get along" bandwagon and in any way condone the damage they do. You may be blind to the breeding/breeder facts but we are not. Some of those "good" breeders on your board are supplying petstores (they just don't admit it) and selling to anyone with money to buy at shows. They are selling non-breeding quality animals unaltered and their actions encourage others to breed.

I know your intentions are good but on this board we take a much stronger animal welfare stance. All I ask is that you abide by it.

[Susan9608]

IM]O, pet stores are a far greater evil than breeders.

So ... who do you think supplies pet stores with the animals they sell?

[Mommy Of One]

I just need to put my two cents in, you realise that when people breed, for every single animal that the breeder sells, there is another animal who becomes euthanised in a shelter :eek: .. How is that not evil?

[ctinaw]

Originally Posted by sasnpipp

I just had the link in my intro and rabbit link request thread deleted, I'm an Admin at a large rabbit site deemed 'breeder friendly', so I thought I'd throw my two cents into the mix. This is a slightly edited version of a PM sent to the person here who pulled the link.

A reference in the links thread surmises that the site used to be non-breeder and had changed. It's the opposite. The owner of the original site started it as a byproduct of her breeder-skewered magazine. It gravitated to a pet site.

I'm personally a rescuer, a vegetarian and a moderate animal rights activist. I'll never condone PETA as long as they euthanize, and I take umbrage with the HRS branches and rescues that will see bunnies euthanised rather than allow placements in blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahv blah blah blah blah.

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blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

blah blah blah blah.

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blah blah blah blah BLAH BLAH blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

sas

Somebody want to translate this? All I'm reading is a bunch of text that really makes no sense to me.

[VoodooJoint]

Originally Posted by ctinaw

Somebody want to translate this? All I'm reading is a bunch of text that really makes no sense to me.

Unless you have something beneficial to add to the discussion/debate it may be better not to say anything at all. A reply like that could be construed as merely inflammatory.

[sasnpipp]

Originally Posted by Mommy Of One

I just need to put my two cents in, you realise that when people breed, for every single animal that the breeder sells, there is another animal who becomes euthanised in a shelter :eek:

Heh! lol Mommy, that's almost the exact line I always use. If I could figure out how, I'd have it on a macro.

Our rabbits site is far from breeder supportive, we just recognize that the greatest evil is irresponsible rabbit owners, be they breeders or pet owners. Both are equally likely to contribute to shelters. We fight the battles we can win. Rescues who make it hard for irresponsible owners to adopt accomplish nothing as long as that same inappropriate owner can walk into a pet store and purchase a rabbit (unaltered) for even cheaper than adopting one.

Eliminating pet store sales eliminate the worst of it -- impulse buyers. Make them go to shelters or breeders, they'll have to do the research. Responsible breeders will take a rabbit back for rehoming. They can set restrictions and issue contracts. Ultimately, they can be licensed.

When I bought my purebred puppy from a breeder years back, I had to sign an agreement to have her spayed -- similar to a rescue contract. Breeders can be encouraged (if not legislated) to do the same. ID chips or (painless) tatoos can be required to monitor them.

The rabbit shelters here are full, yes, but a FAR greater problem are the unaltered feral rabbits set 'free' by irresponsible owners. There is a colony in a suburb estimated at 5000, the farmers are shooting and poisoning the ones that manage to survive the parasites and predators. The above plan will go a long way to prevent that.

By working with the breeders, we can implement a lot of these rules. Working against them will only make them vindictive and drive them underground and into organized lobby groups (which is how the local farmers got permission to shoot and poison them here to begin with). Do you people realize that as many recent laws being passed involve legislation AGAINST animal rights groups as for animal protection?

Originally Posted by Susan9608

So ... who do you think supplies pet stores with the animals they sell?

With rabbits, the main culprits with the chains are 'bunny mills' like Marshall Farms -- whose latest practice is spaying four week-old babies to supposedly 'help' the overpopulation problem. And it certainly does help that problem, seeing as it's a good bet up to half the babies die during or following the surgery. :(

The 'mom and pop' stores in my city tend to take in litters from backyard breeders, they're cheaper and no one can recognize that they're mixed breeds at that age, anyway.

Purebred petstock from small breeders rank third on the list here.

It should be noted that the breeders who actively participate on our online site will always take back a rabbit that doesn't work out, they never 'cull' their stock other than by selling pets to screened owners, and their rabbits all have names. I'm personally not all that thrilled with breeding rabbits wil lop ears or short faces or whatever, I guess that's the nature of 'breeds', but our participants work to eliminate dental issues, predispositions to stasis and other genetic faults. They're not in it for the money.

Originally Posted by ctinaw

Somebody want to translate this? All I'm reading is a bunch of text that really makes no sense to me.

Try this site: Reading Comprehension - Free Worksheets
I believe your local high school also offers classes in reading comprehension. My apologies for writing over your head, sorry! :sorry:

Oh, and for the record, I post under 'Pipp' on my rabbit site (not sasnpipp) in case anyone actually wants to research before passing judgment. :)

sas

[sasnpipp]

Originally Posted by VoodooJoint
We are aware that breeders will continue to breed but we refuse to jump on the "let's all get along" bandwagon...


I have to address just one last thing... Heaven forbid having a pet-friendly site promoting peace and tranquility. ;) But I do find it a little funny that perusing this site I'm seeing all sorts of edits, bans, sniping, judgments and arguments when everybody here is supposed to be on the same page.

Our site is a potentially volatile mix of breeders and rescuers (and kids and adults), yet I don't think I've banned more than two people in two years (and even then, only temporarily). We rarely have had to pull threads, we almost never edit and have had precious few warnings issued.

Our moderators are asked to be helpful, not officious. The members are welcome (if not encouraged) to express their opinions, but in a non-judgmental climate of respect and tolerance. :cheerful:

We agree to disagree and we get to the business at hand -- the health, welfare and promotion of rabbits as pets, education for bunny slaves and social chat among a large group of true rabbit lovers. :love:

We honestly all do get along. How evil is that? :optimist:

sas

[VoodooJoint]

Most of the people here are on the same page. We run a very successful, rescue oriented website with a large population, active forum and strict policies without selling out to breeders. Most GP website support breeding. We are a rare exception and as far as I can see the 2 main rescue oriented GP websites have far more traffic and posting then any of the other big, breeding supportive websites. I know that this website alone is far more active then most of the well known websites. That says something to me. It tells me that what we do and how we do it is embraced and successful.

We have breeders on this site. I could name off at least a dozen (I won't though). They don't feel the need to discuss what they do on this site though. They are here to get and give good information, NOT discuss or encourage breeding. I know you say that your site does not encourage breeding but the simple fact is, it does. The very fact that you have a rabbitry forum encourages the idea that breeding is acceptable. I know you claim that people try to talk others out of breeding but all you are doing is trying to teach through "do as I say, not as I do". That is counterproductive.

If people want a "let's all get along" forum there are plenty of them. I've been banned from at least 2 of them for being vehemently pro-rescue and for being an often lone voice of reason against the children breeders. In the end they definitely weren't very "let's all get along". I have a feeling I would probably get banned from your website too if I were to join and post. I tend to make the breeders look bad when I start pointing out the flaws in their "responsible" definitions.

As I said before, you can run your website however you like. The fact remains that it supports breeding and a link to it will NEVER be allowed on this forum as long as it does.

[Susan9608]

We honestly all do get along. How evil is that?

Pretty evil, in my opinion, since that mentality allows breeding to be condoned, however silently you condone it. By not speaking out against something, you're simply allowing that thing to continue.

This forum isn't content to sit by and be silent about something as dangerous and destructive as breeding.

How can any breeder truly be "responsible" when there are so many animals (rabbits included) who are either in shelters, without homes, or set free (because they are no longer wanted) to fend for themselves? Sure, sure the breeders who frequent *your* forum are all totally responsible and would never have one of their animals end up in a shelter. But for every rabbit one of your fabulous, "responsible" breeder breeds (brings into existence) and sells, another rabbit languishes in a shelter, is euthanized, or is set free (probably because the owner had been turned away from shelters and/or had been unable to rehome privately.) So your "responsible" breeders aren't so very responsible, at least not to rabbits in general.

[Alusdra]

While I don't neccessarily disagree with your points, sasnpip- I do disagree with your approach. What works for your bunny board works for your bunny board, but what works for this board works for this board. What I mean to say, is- it's not right for you to come here and object to the philosophies of this board- in essence "disrespect the rules for the house." Your approach is akin to saying "my way is better than your way, so you should change." That's not right.

If you had come in saying, "I want to learn why you feel this way as I know a different way that has worked really well for me" than that would have been completely appropriate and probably wildly debated and discussed. This board has some awesome dialogs. I know that it's really easy to slip into head-butt mode (I think VJ and I have done so once or twice) but try to remember to take a step back and not get too emotionally invested. The other person always has a reason for how they feel that is just as valid as your reason for how you feel and here you are the guest. I like to think of it this way: head-butting doesn't lead to changes in direction- just headaches.

[Maisiepaisie]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Pretty evil, in my opinion, since that mentality allows breeding to be condoned, however silently you condone it. By not speaking out against something, you're simply allowing that thing to continue.

I totally agree. I think its a shame that any of the rabbit, guinea pig or any animal forums allow breeding discussions. If more of them were as anti-breeding as this site and Guinealynx, I feel that the message would get through a lot better that their actions are completely unnacceptable. In my opinion, people who both rescue and breed are hypocrites. I don't understand how anyone can come to this forum, be here long enough to read the info on why breeding is bad, yet still continue to contribute to this evil whilst knowing the consequences of their actions. I guess we must be totally on different wavelengths.

[PiggieMamaKelly]

People who create (and fund) their own websites and forums have the power to decide what will and will not be on that site. It doesn't matter who thinks it's wrong or unfair- it is their call.

I don't think the issue should be one of whether it's right or wrong to allow certain material on a forum. An administrator could decide to ban the use of adverbs if they so wished. It's not a democracy.

My take on it is that if you are willing to accept the rules you stick around and participate. If you think your time is better spent elsewhere that is fine too.

[sasnpipp]

Originally Posted by Alusdra

... What I mean to say, is- it's not right for you to come here and object to the philosophies of this board- in essence "disrespect the rules for the house." Your approach is akin to saying "my way is better than your way, so you should change."

I fail to see where the discussion has been about this board at all. This 'chat' was initiated by this site's objections to MY site, I've never objected to anything on this site. I've been defending and explaining my own policies, not attacking anybody else's. :)