CavySpirit.com, extinction, breeder-bashing, petstore smearing, PETA & NAZIs

[CavySpirit]

My, my. This post on my Your Thoughts page on Cavy Spirit requires more than a simple response on my guest book software. So, I've copied it here. Maybe Jeremy will have the nerve to register and defend his position. Maybe he won't. He's been invited. We'll see. We cannot censure his PETA bashing and bringing up Nazi's because he did it on cavyspirit.com and not this forum where it is not allowed. Also, keep in mind, he is slamming my CavySpirit.com site, not this site. He posted on my Your Thoughts page, not this forum. I've copied it here for discussion. IF you plan to respond to this post, make it good, intelligent, well-written, very adult and respectful. No drama, no knee-jerk reaction posts. Think about it first. Thank you.

Dated: 12/26/06
By: Jeremy, from New York, who checked off:
[FONT=Arial]"I am Interested in cavies, just reading and researching"[/FONT]

Cavies are some of the cutest, friendliest animals around. Compared to dogs, cats, or even birds, they are fairly easy to care for, and they rarely, if ever bite.

That said, cavyspirit.com is an informative site, and a source of good information on guinea pigs, such as proper diet and medical care, and even on how to clip the nails. But what your site says about breeders and petstores is hysterical, unbalanced, libelous, and intended to serve as a hitpiece on breeders and petshops. Don't you rescue people realize that the jobs of people working as breeders or in petshops will be threatened by your irresponsible, inflamatory statements, and that your fellow citizens will be unable to get guinea pigs, or any pets for that matter, if there are no breeders or petstores, since it is basic common sense that without breeding, domesticated animals such as guinea pigs will become extinct in only a matter of time?

Look, I understand that cavyspirit is located in the San Francisco area, and that you are probably liberal democrats who hate the "greed" and "heartless profits" of the free market. But who are you to judge the behavior of your fellow citizens who want pets and are willing to pay the price and make any necessary repairs when obtaining guinea pigs from petshops or breeders? Even if it is true that there is a 20% risk of the sow dying during pregnancy, that is a risk that must be taken for the survival of the species, because if everyone followed your anti-breeding advice, there would be no domesticated guinea pigs left and your rescue would go out of business. According to your anti-breeding reasoning, maybe women shouldn't have children at all, due to the many possible complications inherent in pregnancy and childbirth and the difficulties of childrearing today. However, people are rightfully still being fruitful and multiplying, because the perpetuation of mankind depends on people willing to take risks, and life itself is all about taking risks in order to get important things done. Furthermore, one can never predict who will grow up to benefit society and mankind and who will become scoundrels.

And regarding petstores, even if it is true that some have inadequate cage space or less than stellar conditions for guinea pigs, the problems can be solved through the free market, through consumers demanding that petstores house guinea pigs and other small animals (which, by the way, are not in demand as much as cats and dogs) in better conditions, not through hysterical hitpieces and heavy-handed legislation that can destroy people's jobs.

Thus, stop your organization's breeding-bashing and broad-brush smearing of petshops!

Another thing about cavyspirit that is offensive is that you listed PETA in your links section. PETA is a hysterical, unbalanced, dishonest, officious group of busybodies that seeks to ban all use of animals, even for life-saving medical experimentation that can benefit BOTH animals and humans (yes, all that veterinary knowledge comes from animal research). As a grandchild of holocaust survivors, I am righteously angry that you decided to endorse an organization that has the nerve to compare the benign and healthful practice of slaughtering animals for food--including kosher ritual slaughter, where a swift cut to the jugular vein and cartoid artery is made that results in loss of consciousness and death within seconds and which is considered by animal scientists to be the most humane method of animal slaughter--to the Nazi holocaust, and that criticized the late terrorist Yassir Arafat only for sending a donkey to deliver a bomb with which to murder innocent Israelis. PETA and its ilk, or for that matter, vegetarians, are incapable of objectivity in regard to the use of animals for food and medical research, and do not realize that potential new drugs and medical procedures require the use of the whole animal organism, not an artificial cell or computer model. In addition, using humans in medical research without first using animals is a violation of medical ethics, is reminiscent of the Nazis, and is problematic for research because humans come from all different backgrounds and have different body constitutions, while animals used in research are bred specifically for it which means that the researchers can have complete control over the variables in a way they can never have with human subjects. :)

[daftscotslass]

Don't know what to say T, will think of a reply.

However, invite him here to share his views so he can brighten up all our days with his diatribe.

[Ruftybear]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

Dated: 12/26/06
By: Jeremy, from New York, who checked off:
[FONT=Arial]"I am Interested in cavies, just reading and researching"[/FONT]

Even if it is true that there is a 20% risk of the sow dying during pregnancy, that is a risk that must be taken for the survival of the species, because if everyone followed your anti-breeding advice, there would be no domesticated guinea pigs left and your rescue would go out of business.

I am sure you would be glad to see your rescue go out of business if it meant that Piggies were not being abused and mistreated, and that people had been re-educated as to how to properly care for them.

There are times when a business being no longer needed is a good thing.....

[CavySpirit]

Yes, it does amaze me that so many people think of a rescue as a business that we want to be in! I'd be eternally grateful to be put 'out of business.' All that money and time could go back into my own pocket and life.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by daftscotslass

Don't know what to say T, will think of a reply.

However, invite him here to share his views so he can brighten up all our days with his diatribe.

Yes, he's been invited to register and given a link to this post. I doubt we'll see him though.

[CavySpirit]

I'm kind of tired from Christmas, so I'm just going to respond as I have the energy.

To start,

But what your site says about breeders and petstores is hysterical, unbalanced, libelous, and intended to serve as a hitpiece on breeders and petshops.

Re: hysterical, glad you found it entertaining. If you think my writings are based on hysteria, then perhaps you should reread the various articles and their calm and well-articulated documentation, support, evidence and references.

Re: unbalanced, well, duh. I'm presenting the side people don't know about and the side that many people don't want to know about. You'll find the other side in the pet stores and at the breeders and all of their associated websites, books and propaganda.

Re: libelous, well, now you're being entertaining. Libel has to be damaging against a specific company or person and be untrue. Nothing on my site is libelous.

Re: hitpiece, hmmm. Well, I'm not exactly sure what a hitpiece is. I've never heard that term before. Since you are so into labels and stereotypes, perhaps it's some NYC term. But, I can infer that you mean targetted against breeders and petshops, and if you were to clarify your own 'broad brush' of petshops to mean pet stores that sell animals, then yes, of course, it's a 'hit piece.' Although that term still brings up images of gangsters and guns for me.

[VoodooJoint]

Ug, too much idiocy to and unfullfilled thought process to even try to respond to.

[daftscotslass]

OK, here we go, let me address each point that I can in turn.

But what your site says about breeders and petstores is hysterical, unbalanced, libelous, and intended to serve as a hitpiece on breeders and petshops.

Let me define libel for you, first of all. Libel is maliciously printing false, defamatory information. None of the information on the site you have read is conjecture let alone false - it is based on fact from personal observation and years of experience on the part of the site owner. One cannot libel the breeders, either, none are mentioned by name.

Don't you rescue people realize that the jobs of people working as breeders or in petshops will be threatened by your irresponsible, inflamatory statements, and that your fellow citizens will be unable to get guinea pigs, or any pets for that matter, if there are no breeders or petstores, since it is basic common sense that without breeding, domesticated animals such as guinea pigs will become extinct in only a matter of time?

No, I don't realise this at all. Let me take as an example a pet store local to me. They were (are) a small business that had no idea of how to cope with the animals they had on sale, having merely obtained the easily-granted training course that allowed them to open a pet shop. The animals were kept in poor, cramped conditions and many a person complained. Eventually they were told to get back on track or face closure. They decided that while they could not cope with the demands of livestock and when the last were sold, no more were bought in. Selling supplies and no animals they have found themselves running on a profit rather than a loss for the first time since they began their business 20 years ago, having no animals to cater for or seek treatment for should they need it. They have even employed a part time member of staff to give themselves more time off, again without a loss. So, without conjecture, please grace us with an instance whereby a pet store with no animals were forced to make job cuts.

As for cavies becoming extinct, what can I say? Humans are humans. There will always be a demand for cheap, easy-to-get-without-a-homecheck pets and, as a result, the cycle continues.

Even if it is true that there is a 20% risk of the sow dying during pregnancy, that is a risk that must be taken for the survival of the species, because if everyone followed your anti-breeding advice, there would be no domesticated guinea pigs left and your rescue would go out of business.

Hmm. Let me get my Dictionary.com out.

busi·ness

[biz-nis]

–noun

1. an occupation, profession, or trade:

2. the purchase and sale of goods in an attempt to make a profit.

3. a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern.

I've yet to meet a rescue yet that makes a profit. As Teresa says above, I'm sure she would be positively devestated if there were no mistreated, malnourished and abused animals eating her out of house and home.

According to your anti-breeding reasoning, maybe women shouldn't have children at all, due to the many possible complications inherent in pregnancy and childbirth and the difficulties of childrearing today. However, people are rightfully still being fruitful and multiplying, because the perpetuation of mankind depends on people willing to take risks, and life itself is all about taking risks in order to get important things done.

Guinea pigs are guinea pigs, humans are humans. Humans generally have free will. Humans have the choice as to whether or not to procreate (except in extreme circumstances). They generally choose whether or not to use contraception, they choose whether or not they have sex. Where is the choice in a male and female cavy thrown into a small cage together, forced to mate because it's what instinct drags them to do when there's an individual of each gender and the female is in season.

Furthermore, one can never predict who will grow up to benefit society and mankind and who will become scoundrels.

Funny you should mention this. Read through papers from as far back as the early 1980s - the evidence quite clearly illustrates that there is a strong correlation between those who abuse animals as youngsters and those who show the same disregard to their fellow human beings as adults.

Felthous, Alan R., "Aggression Against Cats, Dogs, and People," Child Psychiatry and Human Development, 1980, 10: 169-177.

Kellert, Stephen R. and Alan R. Felthous "Childhood Cruelty Toward Animals Among Criminals and Noncriminals," Nov. 1983.

And regarding petstores, even if it is true that some have inadequate cage space or less than stellar conditions for guinea pigs, the problems can be solved through the free market, through consumers demanding that petstores house guinea pigs and other small animals (which, by the way, are not in demand as much as cats and dogs) in better conditions, not through hysterical hitpieces and heavy-handed legislation that can destroy people's jobs.

See above for relevant response.

I have no experience personally with PETA and hence won't get involved in such discussion but if you would like me to discuss any of the above points in more detail do let me know.

[CavySpirit]

Don't you rescue people realize that the jobs of people working as breeders or in petshops will be threatened by your irresponsible, inflamatory statements...

Now this one is amusing to me. I guess you missed this page on my website: http://cavyspirit.com/shopping.htm. If Petno/stupid or any pet store were to stop selling animals, they'd still have a store to run. Hello!?

And most breeders who claim to be 'responsible' won't hesitate to tell you that there is absolutely no money in breeding. It costs money. And if, by some great and wonderful chance, we happen to put a couple of idiot mill breeders out of business and out of a so-called job, then I'll dance and sing them all the way to the unemployment line myself and I could care less that they are out of work.

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

Yes, it does amaze me that so many people think of a rescue as a business that we want to be in! I'd be eternally grateful to be put 'out of business.' All that money and time could go back into my own pocket and life.

Geez, if he thinks you're making money rescuing, he must believe that your pigs are pooping little gold poops. I can't think of any other way to make money rescuing.

[naturestee]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

Don't you rescue people realize that the jobs of people working as breeders or in petshops will be threatened by your irresponsible, inflamatory statements,

I'll just pick this piece out and say that the only living creatures sold in my favorite pet store are tropical fish. When asked where to get actual animals, the employees hand out fliers for the local Humane Society which always has cats, dogs, rabbits, and guinea pigs and often small rodents like hamsters as well as occasional birds. The business is doing very well even though there is another pet store just a block away that has all the typical small animals plus puppies.

Jeremy, no offense but it seems like you're having the typical knee-jerk reaction of those who haven't researched animal overpopulation and cruelty problems relating to pet stores and their often horrible advice and the mill breeders that supply these stores with their living merchandise. I'm not a PETA fan, I'm just a concerned person who has looked into these problems and seen first hand how bad they can be. Do your animals a favor and open your eyes- they'll thank you for it.

[CavySpirit]

Jeremy has fired off a variety of replies to a few different posts on my Your Thoughts page.

This one was in reply to entry #204:

"Teresa and the rest of you cavyspirit anti-breeding fascists, will you please lay off people like this anonymous person and anyone who doesn't agree with your crackpot, Nazi-like agenda of telling people what to do???? Face it, why do you have so much arrogance to presume that any breeders or petstores are just plain bad? Why do you have such nerve to try to interfere with the free market decisions of other people who want to breed or buy pets from pet stores? Why are you so worked up over a few animals that are suffering, but are unconcerned about the livelihoods of breeders, petstore owners, and medical researchers, or for that matter, about real human suffering such as the victims of terrorism? By the way, haven't you thought that the petstores and breeders could have cavyspirit sued for defamation? THIS IS AMERICA, NOT THE SOVIET UNION! STOP TELLING OTHER PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE!"

This one was in reply to post #236:

EARTH TO CAVYSPIRIT: HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A PET STORE WITHOUT ANIMALS???? IF PET STORES DON'T SELL ANIMALS, BREEDERS WON'T PRODUCE THEM AND THE POPULATION WILL EVENTUALLY BECOME EXTINCT, AND WITHOUT ANIMALS TO SELL, THERE WILL BE NO DEMAND FOR PET SUPPLIES! STOP TARRING PET STORES WITH A BROAD BRUSH, YOU BRAINLESS CALIFORNIA SOCIALISTS!!!!!

This one was in reply to post #166:

Elly, and Daisy, you are both a bunch of ignorant fascists trying to order people around. If someone wants to breed, THEN LEAVE THEM THE HELL ALONE! It is basic common sense that without breeding of any domesticated animal for human benefit of some sort, that species will eventually become extinct.

This one is in reply to post #159:

TERESA, YOU ARE A TYRANNICAL, CONDESCENDING, KNOW-IT-ALL FASCIST! MIND YOU OWN BUSINESS AND LEAVE BREEDERS, PET STORE OWNERS, AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOUR UNREASONABLE AGENDA THE HELL ALONE!

He basically went back to Feb 2006 and looked for posts that disagree with me to camp on to. I'm not going to approve his posts on that site. He's welcome to come here and reply if he chooses.

At least I can print the insults here. Unlike our most recent hot debate where the personal insults via PM to me and the moderators were all very crude expletives deleted.

[Jennicat]

I find it interesting that the person demanding that you take down your website because it doesn't agree with what he thinks is calling you a fascist.