My Rights Shut Down!

[poisonapple88]

Lately, I've been active in the organization PETA or People For The Ethical Treatment Of Animals. I started a campaign at my school to get more vegan and vegetarian options for the cafeteria. So far, the school and cafeteria "boss" were very impressed and open to my ideas. Quite a few students were as well. While, that is being a success, some other hardships have entered my path.


I am constantly being harassed by people who think it's "stupid" or "retarded" to be vegetarian. Some are even my own friends! I am shut down by them and they'll do anything to get a rise out of me or hurt my feelings.

As well, I want to be in the medical field someday and was told by my biology teacher I couldn't be a nurse because I am against dissecting animals. My anatomy/physiology course also requires this but I plan to use the information and supplies PETA provided so I can fight against this! I will not fail a class or my dream because I will not kill and open up a cat, frog, etc.

Any comments or thoughts?

[wigglesgiggles1]

I will not fail a class or my dream because I will not kill and open up a cat, frog, etc.

Any comments or thoughts?

Well the animal bodies are donated (right?) from places and the animals died of natural causes. You are not killing the animal. If you want to be in the medical field I am pretty sure you will have to do that.

[JD In Van]

I'm against the use of animals in testing of cosmetics and other none essential research in general but I don't think most people (even and perhaps especially in PETA) understand the participation of animals in most medical research - becaue they don't hear about the bulk of it which is humane, they only hear about the worst of it. I thought I did until I actually worked in the Animal Care Facility at my university and was in for many surpises, primarily that I encountered many of the biggest animal lovers I had ever met in my life. The ACF in my university had a policy of being cruelty free. We did breeding and rehabilitation of some endangered species as well as agricultural studies. And medical studies that required the sacrifice of subjects was always handled instantly and humanely.

I studied neurology in university and I have to tell you that you're going to have to touch dead flesh. I'm sorry you just need to. You need to SEE these things at work to understand them. You need to touch them so you can reliably find them again. You're going to as a nursing student need to sew stitches into pig skin, and practice running ivs into something fleshy. I even held a few human brains in my hands (unsettling as that was the first time). These experiences are important, crucial to teaching you how to save the lives of other animals and people in the future.

In first year courses that are common pre reqs there's sometimes an option to opt out but beyond that I've never seen one. I would suggest you contact the biology and medical departments at your institution to find out their policies on these matters and how they procure their dissection samples.

[2sCompany]

I don't believe in being vegetarian.

And i may be frowned upon, because of my view.

If you read into a book called "The Bible" Animals were put on the earth for a reason, to eat. If you want to befriend one, so be it. But that's what most of them are here for.

That is my outlook on it.

[JD In Van]

Actually most of the research would indicate that an educated vegetarian is far far healthier then the average north american. Monks and religious people for centuries have known this and practiced modest diets that weren't heavy in meat but instead consisted mainly of produce.

To make it clear. I applaud your vegetarian choices. I'm all for being ethical and healthy.

Just if you want to study anatomy you have to study anatomy.

[Catayn]

Just ignore those people. They just want to bring you down. If you are sure you are doing the right thing, go on with it.
I am absolutely against testing cosmetics and doing school prohects using animals,but i do believe they have their contribution to the medical field. I love animals and I believe they should be respected, but people are, to me, far more important and there are things we cannot test on a person. Therefore, tests should be done on animals, while we don't have other options.
That's how I see it. I graduated in Portuguese and English/ Grammar and Literature, and I had to touch dead people many times, to understand how the air flows through your boby so you can vocalize and so on. There is nothing degrading on it. We respected the people on the table deeply, and I am sure everyone was thankful to see things they way they really are.
I don't know the laws where you are, but in Brazil, we have very strick laws for prejudice, and this could be taken as prejudice, since they are publicly declaring your decision to change your life, as stupid or retarded. It would also be considered prejudice against people with special mental conditions, which would give them a much bigger punishment.
Is there anything like this where you live? I'm not telling you to go to court with your friends, but telling them there are laws, even in other countries, about that kind of behavior may make them see the horrible thing they are doing.
And congratulations! Don't feel bad about these things! I have never heard of even one great leader in History of mankind that had the ideas welcomed and accepted by everyone around.

[poisonapple88]

Well, I've been reading up about where they get the animals from and some of it was very nasty. In the book by PETA I'm reading they said I could write a letter to the principal or administration asking about where they get the animals. If it is a humane company I would be okay but I fear some of the places may be cruel.

For some of the courses, I do have the option to opt out and I plan to take that as far as I can go. I find human dissection acceptable because the bodies have to be donated. Animals are not given the choice. I know eventually I may have to dissect but until then, and even after, I will fight for students rights for alternative assignments.

They even have programs for schools that show in depth and very accurate 3D representations on computers. A "virtual" dissection if you will. So yes, actually there are other options. As for researchers, they've found out how to simply use human cells to research instead of animals. They just prefer not to.

I don't think I'm allowed to say where I live but in my state there are no laws protecting the students in school from refusing to dissect. Considering I'm in the 46th dumbest state in the nation, no wonder.

P.S. The fact that I'm going vegan makes this even more difficult. >.>

[Tessa Bea]

If you read into a book called "The Bible" Animals were put on the earth for a reason, to eat. If you want to befriend one, so be it. But that's what most of them are here for.

You're not supposed to bring religion to the table on this forum, I'm pretty sure that includes religious books as well.

[Catayn]

Sweetie, I know how you feel. I personally think that studies that have already been proved don't need to be repeated in the poor animals. But new studies do require testing. Virtual things are great, but you need to know how the real deal is.

[poisonapple88]

I just don't understand why, since I'll probably be working with humans in the future, that I need to practice on an animal. Groups could work together on cadavers... Some universities even bring their students in groups to watch a professional perform surgeries at a hospital. That's fair and humane!

[JD In Van]

I just don't understand why, since I'll probably be working with humans in the future, that I need to practice on an animal. Groups could work together on cadavers... Some universities even bring their students in groups to watch a professional perform surgeries at a hospital. That's fair and humane!

You need to know what skin feels like. How muscle moves when you push a needle through it, how veins react when their cut. Where exactly that muscle is in the neck and how to get a needle into it quickly. How much pressure it takes to cut a nerve, a bone, a nail. These are things you can't just learn from a computer program unfortunitely. You need to see them. To feel them. They have to be imbedded in your tactile memory so deeply that you don't have to think about them to call on them in an emergancy situation. You need to SEE the way that this connects to this which connects to that and be able to manipulate it and touch it to gain this.

Unfortunitely there's a shortage of human cadavers and those that they have go to PhD students 90% of the time.

I want to make it clear that I am very very against cruelty. I do not believe it is acceptable under any circomstances to treat any animal in an inhumane way.

But it's important to also not throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. There is a lot to be gained from these exersises.

It's also important to appreciate that information from orginizations such as PETA is very one sides and only depicts worst case senerios as if they're all like that. As I said, I would highly recommend you speak to the department heads at your institution and discuss the matter with them openly and level headedly.

[poisonapple88]

You need to know what skin feels like. How muscle moves when you push a needle through it, how veins react when their cut. Where exactly that muscle is in the neck and how to get a needle into it quickly. How much pressure it takes to cut a nerve, a bone, a nail. These are things you can't just learn from a computer program unfortunitely. You need to see them. To feel them. They have to be imbedded in your tactile memory so deeply that you don't have to think about them to call on them in an emergancy situation. You need to SEE the way that this connects to this which connects to that and be able to manipulate it and touch it to gain this.

Unfortunitely there's a shortage of human cadavers and those that they have go to PhD students 90% of the time.

I want to make it clear that I am very very against cruelty. I do not believe it is acceptable under any circomstances to treat any animal in an inhumane way.

But it's important to also not throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. There is a lot to be gained from these exersises.

It's also important to appreciate that information from orginizations such as PETA is very one sides and only depicts worst case senerios as if they're all like that. As I said, I would highly recommend you speak to the department heads at your institution and discuss the matter with them openly and level headedly.

Actually, that isn't necessary anymore due to recent advancements in technology! There are quite a few medical schools that have simulated patients. They bleed, urinate and defecate, have all their pulses, talk and react through the controls of a teacher, bleed, has soft real like skin. When I first saw these models at my local university I was in amazement! I had never seen something so life like. They had upper arms that bled and were made with flesh like material so they could practice putting iv's in.

It was absolutely incredible. Thanks to those advancements, animals aren't needed for testing anymore!

[CavySpirit]

Absolutely NO religious discussion of any kind will permitted in this thread. Drop it now or face censure.

[twilightwheek]

I agree and disagree with so much thats already been said here.

I am an avid meat eater, and I also eat a ton of produce (thanks to my GPig!) and I enjoy every bite I take. I do not feel bad for it, and I hope you do not frown upon me for the way I am!

I do want to say this, you are your own person, poisonapple. You have no idea how little many of these people will mean to you in just a few short years. Keep doing what you're doing, but also remember it is not your right to chastise the people who DO eat meat, and do not share the same views as you just because you are vegan.

I applaud you for what you're doing in your school, and I hope they continue
with you both serving vegan meals and regular meals. Keep up the great work, it will serve you well in the future!

[Alusdra]

The models they have are pretty cool, but they are certainly no replacement. Even the most sophisticated ones are still plastic and do not have the same feel as flesh.

However- I don't think that dissection is needed before professional education. Below upper level undergrad courses, I don't think it is necessary. Also where you get these things from can vary widely. Pig skin usually comes from butchered pigs, which in my mind is good, as they are using the 'waste' parts of the animal. But if you are a vegetarian, I can understand why you would not want to use it. I don't know what the alternative is, pig skin is a different feel entirely than even the most sophisticated simulacrum I've tried. Some places (vet schools especially) use donated animals that died in the hospitals, but more use purpose-bred animals (killed for the lab).

Definitely keep up with the research into it and with the talks with admin at your school. It is certainly a worth-while cause. Try to see if you can get some less biased information, though. A lot of times PETA is striving more to make you react emotionally versus educate about research and graduate education necessities.

[CavySpirit]

I've moved this thread to the Vegetarian section. As such, I don't want to see ANYONE posting on this thread that is supporting eating meat. Stay away. This is NOT your thread and not your forum. This is about SUPPORTING vegetarianism.

[Piggynovice]

My sister is veg*n. It took her a long time to get my parents to accept it, but she is very happy with her decision. She, like you, worked to get more veg*n friendly foods in the lunch room at her high school. Once word got around about what she was doing, more of the veg*ns at the school joined in. Eventually, the school paper did an article on the efforts, and changes were made. I hope your efforts are as successful.

[MyZoo2]

My work offers a lot of veg'n items like boca burgers, however, they are not very vegan friendly. Generally speaking most people can find a suitable option for their dietary lifestyle where I work.

Depending on which A&P class you take, some schools offer a virtual disection class. It's a cool program, and it works well. The disection of animals is typically limited to lower level biology courses. More in depth A&P classes actually use human bodies that were donated post mortem to the study of science. Classes that require animal disections never use live animals. They are actually purchased already deceased & preserved. The medical field is that gray area of animal rights, because a lot of the laws for medical purposes are based on animal research and then human research. You could take a biology class that is more friendly towards your particular views (like using the virtual disection), and then transfer the credits too the nursing school you desire. Just make sure they will actually transfer prior to taking the course(s).

[JD In Van]

Actually, that isn't necessary anymore due to recent advancements in technology! There are quite a few medical schools that have simulated patients. They bleed, urinate and defecate, have all their pulses, talk and react through the controls of a teacher, bleed, has soft real like skin. When I first saw these models at my local university I was in amazement! I had never seen something so life like. They had upper arms that bled and were made with flesh like material so they could practice putting iv's in.

It was absolutely incredible. Thanks to those advancements, animals aren't needed for testing anymore!

The models don't replace animal testing. Testing is used to find out how an unknown will impact biological life. A model can't be made until the testing is done and still it won't serve the purpose of finding out the impact of something on living things.

They are used for practice for medical procedures but in that they're still very limited in their scope and can't yet be used for gross anatomy (though if they made an autopsy one that would be pretty impressive) and surgery. They're just for limited procedures like stitches and ivs and other routine care.

[Catayn]

I couldn't agree more with JD In Van. Nothing can replace the real deal. I would never let a doctor who has just practiced in virtual things touch me. I had lots of virtual classes before dealing with real corpses and I can tell you for sure, it's quite different. It's not clean and neat like in the "toy" things. They certainly help a lot, but will not replace reality. It would be necessary to have the world's smartest computer to predict all kind of reactions a living creature could have to ll sorts of things.
We don't even need to go that far. I have a friend who pilots a helicopter for a company in my town. At first, when he was learning, he had this virtual stuff, really technological. But when he really came to pilot a real helicopter he nearly freaked because it was so different.
I believe there will come the day when we'll have other alternatives, but for now, we kind of don't have a choice if the intention is to graduate competent doctors and nurses who will be out there in the world holding people's lives in their hands. That's a whole lot of responsibility.
I would also like to add that, most of the people we cut open in college have not ever donated their corpses to medicine. Most of them are people with no family, who died alone and whose body has never been claimed by anyone. So, it's kind of not their choice either.