Crop Farming and Animal Deaths

[CavySpirit]

Of course, I acknowledge that animals die during grain harvesting. I'm not going along with millions or even close to a million because I have seen no scientific study to support that claim. And I wasn't suggesting that the farm experience of the other poster was a scientific source.

However, I disagree that TODAY, anyone who changes to a vegetarian diet or adheres to a vegetarian diet has those animals' blood on their hands.

Talking about 'one less burger eaten...' still doesn't solve the problem of animlas being shredded by farm equipment, and there-in lies the only thing I've been trying to communicate-that a vegetarian diet is not a bloodless one.

I don't agree with this position either. I do believe that one less burger CAN and DOES impact the issue. I agree that in that hypothetical world, it may not matter, but in reality it does. I've tried to point out many facts relating to Livestock, ecology and agribusiness and how it is all tied together and a vegetarian diet can reduce the need for such agribusiness.

I have more to say on this, but I have no more time available today.

[Smudger]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

Of course, I acknowledge that animals die during grain harvesting. I'm not going along with millions or even close to a million because I have seen no scientific study to support that claim. And I wasn't suggesting that the farm experience of the other poster was a scientific source.

Thankyou for clearing that up. It did seem to me that your quoting of the other posters 'farm experience' was to be taken as though you considered it to be proof that no animals are killed during harvesting. As for it being a 'scientific source', assuming that poster was being truthful then I'd say it would count, after all, science is largely observation.

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

However, I disagree that TODAY, anyone who changes to a vegetarian diet or adheres to a vegetarian diet has those animals' blood on their hands.

It's all in the phrasing. I was never at any point (that I'm aware of) suggesting that vegetarians are directly responsible for those deaths. In fact, I wasn't suggesting anything-I was merely (as previously stated) correcting a misconception held by one person that being vegetarian meant their diet didn't cause the suffering and deaths of animals. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

Talking about 'one less burger eaten...' still doesn't solve the problem of animlas being shredded by farm equipment, and there-in lies the only thing I've been trying to communicate-that a vegetarian diet is not a bloodless one.

I don't agree with this position either. I do believe that one less burger CAN and DOES impact the issue. I agree that in that hypothetical world, it may not matter, but in reality it does. I've tried to point out many facts relating to Livestock, ecology and agribusiness and how it is all tied together and a vegetarian diet can reduce the need for such agribusiness.

Again, I respectfully point out that although I believe you to be correct on this point, it isn't relevant to the point I was trying to make (and before anyone accuses me of trying to distort the discussion to fit my own ideas, may I remind you that this whole thread has come about based on a statement made by myself, which I am now defending). My point is not one of 'one less burger means nothing...', because I believe that at the end of the day, all the little things add up and make a big difference. Again, my one and only point is that currently, a vegetarian diet does not come without a cost in terms of animal deaths. It is not a bloodless diet.

The issue isn't whether one diet is better or kinder-if it were, you'd probably find that you and I would agree on a great many things-but rather that one poster here believed being vegetarian meant that animals didn't have to suffer or die as a result of their diet, and I simply pointed that out to be a falsehood.

Sorry to keep going over the same ground, but I feel that people are missing the issue and taking this to be me saying that a vegetarian diet is just as bad as a meat based one-I'm not.

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

I have more to say on this, but I have no more time available today.

That's cool. I hope by now you can see where I've been coming from all this time. You don't need to go to the trouble of showing me how a veggie diet can reduce the agriculture business-I've read up on this and understand what is being suggested-as I keep saying, my original point never suggested anything to the contrary.

[phantac]

Originally Posted by Baby Bears

My family are farmers. We farm various grains, corn and soybeans. Truth is, in my husbands 20 years of farming (and my father-in-law longer than that) we have NEVER seen a dead animal in the field or any sort of evidence of them in the combines, rakes, plows, etc.

Question for all you farmers who farm for a living. And if it was true that small animals were getting killed by your farming methods would you go into another profession?

[Baby Bears]

So my sources are 'extremely suspect', yet the above example about 'I've never seen an animal killed during harvesting' comes from a vegetarian, completely supports your argument and therefore is accepted without question.


Actually, Smidger, I'm not a vegetarian. I eat plenty of meat. I just want people to know the FACTS whether they support "my position" or not. I could care less if you want to be a vegetarian or a carnivore - WHATEVER. I just thought a farmer's perspective would be nice!!


Oh, and if 'they are not stupid and get out of the way in plenty of time', how do you explain the various animals that you see smeared over roads?

Have you noticed the speed of a tractor or combine when actively plowing or harvesting?? You can't go too fast because it tears up the crops. I can OUTWALK a tractor! I can't outwalk a car going 45 mph.

[Baby Bears]

Phantac >> my husband and I farm part time (only about 20 -25 acres)> My father-in-law, however, has farmed his entire life. He is 65 years old. He has a 6th grade education. He CAN'T go into another profession. He enjoys the outdoors and growing things and the hard work. So do I, so does my husband. It's a noble and honest profession - and more than that, it's a way of life. I don't care what anyone says - we would not give it up.Sorry. I'm being honest because I think that's what you're looking for.

[Smudger]

Originally Posted by Baby Bears

So my sources are 'extremely suspect', yet the above example about 'I've never seen an animal killed during harvesting' comes from a vegetarian, completely supports your argument and therefore is accepted without question.


Actually, Smidger, I'm not a vegetarian. I eat plenty of meat. I just want people to know the FACTS whether they support "my position" or not. I could care less if you want to be a vegetarian or a carnivore - WHATEVER. I just thought a farmer's perspective would be nice!!

My bad! I jumped to a conclusion, and I apologise. And I too could care less about whether someone wants to eat meat, veg, fruit, old shoes or whatever-as I keep having to say, I wanted to put right what I see as being someone's misconception.

Originally Posted by Baby Bears

Oh, and if 'they are not stupid and get out of the way in plenty of time', how do you explain the various animals that you see smeared over roads?

Have you noticed the speed of a tractor or combine when actively plowing or harvesting?? You can't go too fast because it tears up the crops. I can OUTWALK a tractor! I can't outwalk a car going 45 mph.

The speed isn't particularly relevant when dealing with combine harvesting-as I said before, if you're a rabbit or mouse surrounded on all sides by wheat which is many times your height, your view is completely obscured. The only way in which you have any idea of the danger present is by sound, and every animal isn't going to be fortunate enough to make the judgement call that will take them in the direction that leads to safety. My point about animals being splattered by cars on roads is that they have the benefit of having a clear view of the traffic, and therefore could choose to wait until any danger has passed, yet they still make bad judgement calls that cost them their lives.

You also have plows and cultivators that destroy underground burrows and their occupants, and removal of the crops leaves field animals exposed to attacks by predators.

[mncavylover]

Ok, so let's say a bunch of animals die every year from someone who eats grains. Let's just say that this is true for now.

Well then, a vegetarian diet is less bloody. It is an issue that I believe should be faced, and I will definitely look into it further. Thanks for bringing it up.

Also, I know that there is a group of vegetarians that goes around calling people murderers, etc. I can assure you that, since I have been a vegetarian, I have not *once* used a demeaning term in conversation about the issue. If they bring it up, or if they feel like discussing the issue, then of course things can get a little heated. However, this is not always the case. I understand you are trying to get the point across that, in fact, we are still killing. However, I do believe that eating cheese, eggs, and milk contribute to deaths of many animals. Therefore, most vegetarians *do* by definition contribute to the killing of animals. Even if egg and dairy products are given up, there are other problems: byproducts, such as gelatin. Everyday products that we use also contribute to this problem of animal death for our sakes. Perhaps this would be more effective grounds of getting the point across.

I hope that this is not taken in the wrong way, or as something personal. It is really not meant to be that way, and I commend you for caring enough to post this so that others may learn from this. Thanks for reading!

[Smudger]

Originally Posted by mncavylover

I understand you are trying to get the point across that, in fact, we are still killing.

Erm, yes and no! As I've tried to point out, I'm really not here to try and lay any kind of blame-I'm not looking for an opening where I can jump in and shout "AHA! VEGETARIANS ARE MURDERERS!!!", so I'm not saying 'you' are killing, I'm just trying to correct the belief that vegetarianism is harmless to animals. Does that make sense at all? As I've said, I have no agenda here designed to make vegetarianism look bad, rather I just wanted to bring attention to something that needed addressing-after all, things can't improve if people aren't aware. I'm sorry, I'm having one of those moments where I know what I want to say, but for some reason I can't get it out in a way that makes sense!

Originally Posted by mncavylover

I hope that this is not taken in the wrong way, or as something personal. It is really not meant to be that way, and I commend you for caring enough to post this so that others may learn from this. Thanks for reading!

Were you addressing me? If so, then I haven't taken it in the wrong way, and I certainly don't feel you've attacked me personally! Thankyou for reading too.

[mncavylover]

We all have those moments. Yes, I do realize that you are trying to raise awareness, and I thank you for that. Glad it wasn't taken the wrong way.