Eating guinea pigs - an insight into another culture

[CavySpirit]

Cavyspirit. It has been previously stated that this is not only a vegatarian forum, this is a provegatarian forum where meat eating perspectives have been met with disrespect and hostility.

There is far more respect and politeness in the debates on this forum than disrespect and hostility. Once again I tell you, just like breeding discussions are moved to the ANTI-breeding Kitchen forum, vegetarian discussions are moved to the PRO-vegetarian forum. That's my rule. Therefore, it's right. The power abuser has spoken.

If you want vegatarianism to be the norm I suggest you learn from your mistakes.

My mistakes? You mean that you disagree with my approach and therefore your judgement is that I'm doing something wrong. I think the contrary.

Ridiculous arguements ... -- clearly not so ridiculous, as you've already pointed out in your own response.

[Krysanthemum]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

I don't really think I've said anything impolite in any of my posts, but if I did, I offered you an apology in one of my last posts ....

I'm sorry, I thought I made it clear that I was talking about CavySpirit, not yourself.

Originally Posted by Susan9608

If you don't believe that you and your choices/attitudes can make a difference in how animals are treated, then why do you avoid leather and fur? What makes those industries more inexcuseable than the treatment of animals used for food? And why does your contribution (by not wearing fur/leather) help out, but your being a vegetarian would not?

I believe there is a difference. Most people choose to not buy leather and fur, and as a result that decision HAS effected those industries. The s ame overall support is not shown against eating meat, and so I believe my potential decision to change to vegetarianism will have little effect, even if I were tempted to do so. Vegetarianism as a stand against animal cruelty doesn't have the same support as does avoiding leather and fur. Even PETA doesn't protest directly against eating meat, to my knowledge, but rather against the practices found in factory farms.

You made a comment earlier than soon people who eat meat will be in the minority. While that may be true in the future, I doubt it's going to happen in either of our lifetimes. I don't think stopping eating meat is the only way to change the cruelty. Protest against those practices? Fine, I think that's much more constructive. Boycott companies that are particularly cruel? Absolutely. But stopping eating meat altogether makes a very, very small difference, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Susan9608

There would still be slavery in America ... children would still be forced into labor ... women still wouldn't have the right to vote ... minorities wouldn't have the right to vote ...

There you go again, comparing eating meat with human atrocities such as slavery. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't think they're comparable.

If you want to talk about human atrocities, talk about the people dying through terrorism every day in the Middle East or dying of disease throughout South East Asia. Or the millions of children around the world living in poverty or suffering child abuse. I'm sorry, but I think their problems are more important, and I spend some of my time doing what I can to help them, not sacrificing my own small enjoyments by boycotting an entire industry that barely knows I exist.

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

But more than that, when you are empathetic to any degree with the animals' pain and suffering, it hurts. It's emotionally and intellectually painful and difficult to bear.

So you would be happier if I was just an unthinking, redneck moron who eats bacon while torturing a kitten, just to remain consistent? I'm sure that would make me fit in nicely with your narrow view of meat eaters as a whole, but I'm not that two dimensional. I'm not allowed to show emotion towards animal cruelty without being a hypocrite? I actually don't have a problem reconciling the two beliefs.

[2boar1sow]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

Cavyspirit. It has been previously stated that this is not only a vegatarian forum, this is a provegatarian forum where meat eating perspectives have been met with disrespect and hostility.

There is far more respect and politeness in the debates on this forum than disrespect and hostility. Once again I tell you, just like breeding discussions are moved to the ANTI-breeding Kitchen forum, vegetarian discussions are moved to the PRO-vegetarian forum. That's my rule. Therefore, it's right. The power abuser has spoken.

If you want vegatarianism to be the norm I suggest you learn from your mistakes.

My mistakes? You mean that you disagree with my approach and therefore your judgement is that I'm doing something wrong. I think the contrary.

Ridiculous arguements ... -- clearly not so ridiculous, as you've already pointed out in your own response.

You know, I told you what I thought you did wrong. Its your forum, don't pay attention, dont change and you're the one who has to live with turning people away from vegatarianism. I'm glad that you feel passionately about vegatarianism and I have lots of respect for you because of that.

[2boar1sow]

Krysanthemum, isn't not eating meat a way to boycott companies that treat animals cruelly? I personally think that killing them at all is not right, so picking a certain company out isn't really an issue for me. Why does it matter how much of a difference you are making? Shouldn't you just make the moral decision regardless of how much of a difference it is going to make? If you want to make a difference then go ahead and become more active too. It does not take time to be a vegatarian, you simply don't eat meat...So you have plenty of time to help 3rd world countries, victims of terrorism and etc.

Shouldn't this thread be done with? Krysanthemum already said that s/he doesn't eat meat because s/he is selfish right?

[CavySpirit]

There you go again, comparing eating meat with human atrocities such as slavery. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't think they're comparable.

That wasn't what she was saying. She was not comparing eating meat with human atrocities. She was comparing the advances of things that were once the social norm--socially acceptable behavior--and after much awareness raising and effort by many activists over time (and yes, generations)--are now no longer socially acceptable. THAT was the point that she was making:

Slavery and the subordination of women used to be part of our culture and upbringing, too. Thinking about those issues and the tremendous advances that have been made gives me hope that one day the animal rights movement will come that far and the question about which animals are okay to eat will be moot.

If you want to talk about human atrocities,...

That wasn't the point. She could just as easily have used cigarette smoking as an example of the social progress made and still being made.


You made a comment earlier than soon people who eat meat will be in the minority.

No. She said, Some day, meat eaters will be the minority. . Some day does not translate into soon in my book.

While that may be true in the future, I doubt it's going to happen in either of our lifetimes.

So, if you don't personally live to see it, it's not worth making an effort and gaining progress along the way?

Protest against those practices? Fine, I think that's much more constructive. Boycott companies that are particularly cruel? Absolutely. But stopping eating meat altogether makes a very, very small difference, in my opinion.

I wondering what your understanding of the factory farming/meat processing industry is. I would like you to explain to me how you would go about boycotting the what--please explain it to me--by doing what. You seem to know what would be effective and constructive. I'd really like to hear more.

But stopping eating meat altogether makes a very, very small difference, in my opinion.

Well, tell that to Safeway, one of North America's largest food retailers, with annual revenues of around 40 billion dollars. I guess they might just disagree with your opinion. Tell that to Trader Joe's. Tell that to Whole Foods. Tell that to a lot of grocery stores. The VEGETARIAN product shelf-space is growing every day. There are more and more vegetarian products and brands available every day--in mainstream stores. Not just the little funky specialty shops. Why? EVERY TIME YOU BUY SOMETHING (OR DON'T BUY SOMETHING) YOU MAKE A DIFFERENCE. I just don't get why people don't get it. Supply and demand. It's as simple as that. Same argument about pigs in pet stores. You cannot refute it. It matters. It does make a difference.

All our little decisions add up to a big difference.

So you would be happier if I was just an unthinking, redneck moron who eats bacon while torturing a kitten, just to remain consistent? I'm sure that would make me fit in nicely with your narrow view of meat eaters as a whole, but I'm not that two dimensional. I'm not allowed to show emotion towards animal cruelty without being a hypocrite? I actually don't have a problem reconciling the two beliefs.

You took that right out of context and twisted it around. I was talking about ME not you. I was trying to respond to your criticism of my "militant" views. I was trying to explain how much you have to take on when you are trying to be a vegetarian for moral reasons.

I don't have a narrow view of meat eaters. Geez. I still like the taste of meat probably as much or more than you do. I just don't eat it or buy it anymore. The vast majority of people I know eat meat. But, if you want to debate the issues, then fine. Let's do it. But, I'd prefer you stop slinging mud at yourself and attributing the slurs to me or others.

[CavySpirit]

You know, I told you what I thought you did wrong. Its your forum, don't pay attention, dont change and you're the one who has to live with turning people away from vegatarianism.

Your entitled to your opinion. There are plenty of posts from people who are encouraged into vegetarianism and are making an effort.

[2boar1sow]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

You know, I told you what I thought you did wrong. Its your forum, don't pay attention, dont change and you're the one who has to live with turning people away from vegatarianism.

Your entitled to your opinion. There are plenty of posts from people who are encouraged into vegetarianism and are making an effort.

I did not say nor imply that people have not been encouraged on this forum. I said you have to live with turning people, not all people, away from vegatarianism. Regardless of how many people are encouraged, I doubt you want to turn any away. So why are you saying I'm entitled to my opinion when licia and krysanthemum have clearly said that they are turned off to vegatarian reason by hostile advocates including yourself? Do you think you treated krysanthemum with the same respect as the people that you deem to be more encouraged?

Your entitled to look past that so you don't have to feel like you did something wrong, but like I said, you're the one who has to live with turning people, not all people, away from vegatarianism.

[Smudger]

I think what gets up the collective nose of most of us meat eaters is the way that vegetarians will constantly berate us for being involved in the suffering of animals, but very rarely will they admit that the farming of the crops that provide their own diet is directly responsible for the deaths of millions of small animals each year-and usually if they do engage in discussion on the subject, the response is one of 'at least I'm doing my part to minimise the suffering of animals'.

It would be nice if we could all just calm down a bit, because this is a very interesting discussion and maybe we can all learn something in the process-some of us meat-eaters may even decide to go veggie as a result of it, but I can promise people that won't happen if all we hear is 'eating meat is wrong' repeated over and over again.

[suzy_99]

I definetely agree with you Smudger. I myself was thinking about becoming a vegetarian and even posted about it on this forums, but after reading through all of the post I kinda felt that some of the vegetarians here think themselves to be better than us meat-eaters (This is not intended for most, only a couple post that I seen way back). Everytime there is this type of discussion, it always seems to turn into a fighting match and us meat eaters are said to be aiding in the suffering of animals.
Another popular discussion is "How can you have animals as pets and then eat other animals at the same time". This is not an educational or informative type of post. It is almost a personal attack. I personally am not offended by any of these types of comments, but it is quite easy to see how others would be. If everyones goal here is truly too create an awareness and education on the vegetarian lifestyle, I would seriously recommend that some of these points be worded in a way that doesn't sound like an attack on a particular persons lifestyle. Most of us come in this forum open and accepting of the fact that many of you are vegetarians, but I haven't seen many vegetarians yet that are completely accepting of meat-eaters. I know that we have different views than you, but please try to accept or at least tolerate our views, so long as they are not belittling your. Some conflict and debate is useful in educating people, but attacks on a person values and beliefs have never helped anyone.
I personally like to come in here to get some information on the pros and cons on being a vegetarian. I was very dissapointed with the fact that some of the vegetarians on the web site are quite quick to point out the drawbacks of eating meat, but seldom point out any of the drawbacks of not eating it. Therefore, I feel that I am not getting an accurate picture of what it means to be a vegetarian, I am only getting one side of the picture and I don't feel that is enough for me to make a complete lifestyle change. I will continue to gather information on it though and I am hoping ot be able to make the change fairly soon, cause it is something that I have wanted to do for a while.

[CavySpirit]

I get the same criticism (only more of it) for not providing a "balanced" view of breeding as well. Same with pet stores.

[Susan9608]

I believe I am the one, at least in this particular thread, who made the comment that others have twisted around into, "How can you have pets and eat other animals at the same time?"

What I *actually* said was, "How do they draw the line between animals that are okay to eat and animals that should only be pets? I'm glad to be a vegetarian so I don't have to wrestle with those decisions ... I don't know how I'd rationalize it." I honestly *don't* know how people decide between the animals that are okay to eat and the animals that should only be pets. That's an honest question. And I also said that I'm glad that *I* (as opposed to anyone else) am a vegetarian so that *I* don't have to make those decisions because *I* wouldn't know how to rationalize it. If people take that statement, which I made about *myself*, as a personal attack, then that is *their* issue and not mine.

If people are turned off of vegetarianism because of the posts here, then again, I said that is *their* issue and not mine. I think if something as simple and silly as posts being viewed as "hostile" turns someone off of being a vegetarian for moral reasons, then obviously they weren't very serious about it to begin with. And Krysanthemum clearly stated that she has no desire to be a vegetarian, not just because of the "hostile" vegetarians, but because she enjoys meat and is too selfish to change.

I would be interested to see some facts about crop farming killing small animals. I can't make an intelligent response to that accusation (not caring about the small animals killed because of crop farming) when I don't have any facts to work with. If you, 2boar1sow, have some links to reliable data, I would be happy to look at it, think about it, and get back to you with how I feel about it. But you posted no facts. So it sounds like a cop-out, designed to put vegetarians on the defensive and get them to drop their arguements and let the meat eaters go along their merry way. I have noticed that this seems to be a favorite tactic of non-vegetarians - to prove that most vegetarians are hypocrites in some way ... as if that undermines the validity of their arguement.

On this forum and in this threat, fact, after fact, after fact about the benefits of being vegetarian have been posted. Links to more facts have been given. Yet you label these arguments as "ridiculous". Your position, in my opinion, is the one that's ridiculous.

And as for people getting too much protein ... that *is* a fact. In America, especially, the average person gets *7* times as much protein than they need. Protein is very hard on your kidneys, so too much protein leads to kidney disease, eventual dialysis, the need for a kidney transplant, and possibly even death. Too much protein filters calcium out of your system (hence, why milk is *not* a good source of calcium) which can lead to osteoporosis and dental problems. Nutritional guidelines say that 60% of your caloric intake should come from carbohydrates, 30% from protein, and 10% from fat. People don't need as much protein as they think they do .... I have been a vegetarian for 17 years; I take no vitamins and I don't even go to special pains to create protein-balanced meals. Never once have I been in a negative nitrogen balance (a state created by too little protein). People who get too little protein are people who eat mostly junk food and/or people who don't have enough of *anything* to eat, not just meat.

Before labeling things as ridiculous, it's usually smart to do some fact-finding, so you avoid looking ridiculous yourself.

[Susan9608]

oops ... I wrote threat instead of "thread" in my above post. That typo puts an interesting twist on what I wrote, doesn't it?

[2boar1sow]

Firstly Susan, I said nothing at all about crop farming killing small animals... I said there are ridiculous things said by avid vegatarians. Just because you say something is a fact does not make it an accurate portrayal of the truth. I've previously stated before, all people interpret data with bias for their own purpose. I have checked on many websites that list "facts" about the "facts" listed on the downsides of meat in this forum. I have come across many clearly bias articles incorrectly referencing other scources. For example, there was an article that was saying chicken caused a certain type of cancer. I looked at the article it referenced about this, and that article said that red meat was linked to that type of cancer, not chicken. I don't offer "facts" because they could be made by just as bias a meat eater. I reason for myself. You can let other people's emotions affect your own and make decisions like that, but I prefer not to do that. When I do find articles that seem to have less bias towards one view, I share that article and encourage understanding of the reason in it. Just because something has a percentage in it, doesn't mean everybody should beleive it. I could easily make up my own "facts". You'd say you don't think I have gotten them from a credible source. Thats what I say about the majority of the articles that are referenced by the "ridiculous arguements". Anyone can write whatever they want. That doesn't make it true.

It is a horrible thing to say that it is someone else's problem and not yours if you say somethign that turns them away from vegatarianism. If you're not going to make the effort to respectfully discuss vegatarianism with people who are interested but reluctant, then you're just hurting your own cause. How is it that you care for animals so much, but you can't give humans the respect they deserve? I never said you're position is ridiculous, I said some of the arguements made are ridiculous. My position, by the way, is pro-vegatarian. I have been one for some time now, I previously stated that, not sure if you picked up on it...

If you'd only listen to the meat eaters, instead of readily throwing everything you've ever heard that puts down meat eating towards them, you'd notice that your approach isn't helping. Think of it this way. How many people on this forum have said, "Wow thanks, I'm really planning on becoming a vegatarian now that you've told me that killing animals is barbaric." Please pay attention to what smudger and suzy have to say.

[Smudger]

Susan-if you want facts or information regarding the deaths of animals as a result of harvesting, just type something like 'small animals killed during harvesting' into Google or any other search engine-you should get quite a few results. Also, rather than me just giving you a link to a particular site, it will give you the benefit of having access to both sides of the argument.

2boar1sow-great post.

[CavySpirit]

I want the sites that you've found. I don't have time to redo the searching and research to find the evidence that supposedly supports your position. If you have the information or links to it that supports your position then share it. Broad-brush statements saying there is plenty of info out there--go search for it, doesn't work for me. Back up your statements and positions. Otherwise, just state them as your opinions or biases or perceptions or whatever.

You'd say you don't think I have gotten them from a credible source. Thats what I say about the majority of the articles that are referenced by the "ridiculous arguements". Anyone can write wha