Hey, I have found out a lot - thanks to omnivores

[caviecrazie]

I would never know all this stuff about vegetarianism if I hadn't tried to convince people to be vegetarianism. I don't believe what eating meat actually does to people.

I used to think being a vegetarian was purely about animals. Now, thanks to research to argue against meat eaters, I know a lot more.


I know, for instance, 70% of the former Amazon rainforest is used to produce meat, and much of the remaining 30% is used to grow feed for the animals.

I know vegetarians save an acre of forest every year.

I know that every hamburger uses as much fuel to drive a small car for 3 weeks with, and puts 75 kg of Co2 into the atmosphere, while a car only releases 3 kg a day.

I know vegetarians are so much healthier than omnivores, and less likely to get so many illnesses and diseases, will live an average of seven years longer. I know vegans are healthiest and live 15 yrs longer.
Omnivores are 9 times more likely to be obese.

I know animal farming is a major contibuter to global warming and many other enviromental issues.

I know that every two seconds a child starves to death.
I know that 60 million people starve to death each year.
I know that if more people were vegetarian, there would be enough food to feed those 60 million people.

I know 1 acre of land produces 165 pounds of beef, but it could produce 20,000 pounds of potatoes.

I know lots more.

I can't believe, after all this arguments, and all the reasons to be vegetarian, people still eat meat.

Why do they do it? Just cos they're greedy and selfish? Maybe because they don't realise what they are doing?

[PrayerWarrior]

Thank you for the information, Craziecavie.

In my experiences, people refuse to give up meat out of pure selfishness.

[Taboo]

A month ago I didn't know any of the stuff you just mentioned.
7 months ago i didn't know that the animals we eat are inhumanely treated (thanks to the PETA video I learned they are).

So maybe some people just don't know?

I know there are many, many selfish people though who just don't care about the animals or anything enough to give up meat.

[AnimalHouse36]

Whoa.....cool!

[caviecrazie]

I've been talking to people who insist they love animals! And yet...they refuse to give up meat.

I agree - I think it is greed & selfishness.

[guineapigluver1]

Originally Posted by caviecrazie

I would never know all this stuff about vegetarianism if I hadn't tried to convince people to be vegetarianism. I don't believe what eating meat actually does to people.

I used to think being a vegetarian was purely about animals. Now, thanks to research to argue against meat eaters, I know a lot more.


I know, for instance, 70% of the former Amazon rainforest is used to produce meat, and much of the remaining 30% is used to grow feed for the animals.

I know vegetarians save an acre of forest every year.

I know that every hamburger uses as much fuel to drive a small car for 3 weeks with, and puts 75 kg of Co2 into the atmosphere, while a car only releases 3 kg a day.

I know vegetarians are so much healthier than omnivores, and less likely to get so many illnesses and diseases, will live an average of seven years longer. I know vegans are healthiest and live 15 yrs longer.
Omnivores are 9 times more likely to be obese.

I know animal farming is a major contibuter to global warming and many other enviromental issues.

I know that every two seconds a child starves to death.
I know that 60 million people starve to death each year.
I know that if more people were vegetarian, there would be enough food to feed those 60 million people.

I know 1 acre of land produces 165 pounds of beef, but it could produce 20,000 pounds of potatoes.

I know lots more.

I can't believe, after all this arguments, and all the reasons to be vegetarian, people still eat meat.

Why do they do it? Just cos they're greedy and selfish? Maybe because they don't realise what they are doing?

I didn't know this, neat, thanks. But, some people cannot be vegetarians or vegans because of health reasons.

[caviecrazie]

Yeah, but guineapiglover 1, it's HEALTHIER to be a vegetarian. And the majority of people can...so...why not?

[Taboo]

I didn't know this, neat, thanks. But, some people cannot be vegetarians or vegans because of health reasons.

What kind of health reasons?

[frashy]

That doesn't make sence. Unless they are allergic to some type of produce? Mmm, being in this section makes me want a salad..NOW!

[AnimalHouse36]

Originally Posted by frashy

That doesn't make sence. Unless they are allergic to some type of produce? Mmm, being in this section makes me want a salad..NOW!

My friend has a diesese where she can't have meat! Been a vegetarian for her whole life! She's allergic to the protien in meat. Not fun!

[guineapigluver1]

Yeah, I know the majority can, but a lot of people are allergic to soy, nuts, some kinds of grains etc. making it hard for them to be vegan, and somewhat vegetarian. I mean I know someone who is vegetarian because of health reason. I was just pointing out that some people can't because of health reasons.


Oh wow! I wish everyone was allergic to meat!

[FoolOnTheHill]

Do you have sources of this information? Who worked out that vegetarians save an acre of forest, or omnivores are 9x more likely to be obese? :/
If I went back to being veggie, I wouldn't save an acre of forest... because I don't eat meat that was produced in a rainforest atm.
I honestly don't think some of them are true; and in any case, certainly can't be grouped under the term 'vegetarians' do this, vegetarians do that.

[frashy]

I agree with FoolOnTheHill here. And in fact, if it weren't for the tree's cut down here in the states, your pigs wouldn't be able to eat fresh veggies because it's those fields that provide the growth for them. Not to mention, veggies/crops for you.

ALSO, not having tree's everywhere, actually helps the wild animals, such as the deer, because deer are always out and about in the fields. They do not live strickly in the woods, they need meadows or open fields just as much.

K, so, talking about tree space where the cows roam..well, whether or not those cows are being used for meat they humanely need to space to roam. So you breed less of them..for what? Would you be killing their species out then? Who are you to say so and so amount of cows is a controled amount? How is that not selfish of us humans?

[caviecrazie]

FoolOnTheHill,I looked at quite a few sources. You can't possibly expect me to remember them...Try the Viva! website. Heh, their leaflets made my friend cry XD I basically simply searched about vegetarianism into Google.frashy,I live in the UK. I have a garden, so heyy, there's grass for my girls. Plus there are fields surrounding my area...Yeah, but there were already natural open areas. We don't have a problem with open areas. Its just the rapidly decreasing area of forest. Isn't that why a lot of animals are threatened by extinction? BECAUSE OF THEIR HABITATS BEING DESTROYED?Who are you to say they deserve to live a life of suffering and die a terrible death? They are being used by people. Anyway, a lot of land erosion in...uhh New Zealand [?] was caused by them cutting down trees for use as pasture. Because of this, when it rained there were mudslides, landslides that destroyed houses. So hey... don't just think about the animals. I mean, look at all the pollution it causes. Look at the human death it causes. Enviromental issues...Even better, just research it yourself...

Ciao.

[frashy]

Wow, umm..I never said anything about animals in New Zealand or anything about rainforest? Don't give me that "Who are you to say they deserve to live a life of suffering and die a terrible death?" because, um, I never even did say that?!?!

I was talking about WISCONSIN and over here in the STATES!

Over here in WI we don't conviently have open areas, unlike what you supposedly have..(please, as if you have proof and know everybody who has ever had a farm, told you they didn't cut into any woods whatso ever to have their farm) I think you are oblivious to the fact woods would cover WI 99%. Take a plane ride over WI and you will see how the cities are surrounded all by woods. No, the cities weren't convienelty built open an open field. You will see everything WI has is there because it's been cut into the woods. This is why trees and woods magicly square-out the border line of all fields. I already said why this is BENEFICAL, not as TERRIBLE as you continuesly believe it is.

" Plus there are fields surrounding my area...Yeah, but there were already natural open areas."
Okay..so you admitt you have farmers, but deny any responsiblity of doing just the same, while blaming other countires. Very immature and childish. As if you know farmers actually do that? Absolutely not. Your land area isn't magical, if other people all around the world do it to get land, believe it or not that's how people got open land where you live just as well. That's a fast way for people to dislike you, accuse others of guilt, while not taking any responibilty of your own. When you point your finger at someone, there will always be three fingers pointing back. Get that?

The mass amounts of land is needed because you seem to be oblivious to the fact MOST people do not even have land, and they need other people to grow these foods because they cannot. It's a part of the common life. There are millions of people who live in cities, big or small, and millions who don't even own their homes, who just rent. So the growing has to be done SOMEWHERE. It has to be done SOMEWHERE, our what will you vegeterians even eat?!? Unless you have acres of land anyways, would you be able to supply enough veggie growth to give you and your veggies a healthy diet.

Based of the diet you believe, and your belief about cutting into forests, you only have it so humans are only allowed to live in areas where there are naturally open fields, and will have to grow their own food. Since you are against farms, everyone in new york city, any other big city, or someone who just doesnt have land to grow their own food, will die. Idk, maybe you arn't against farms, but you are just completely unaware of how these farms must be and how they are against your beliefs? Because those people who dont live on land, which IS MILLIONS, and I mean MILLIONS, of people who rely on others with land elsewhere. This needs to be done somewhere. This is what farms are.

This is when your beliefs become hypocritical, or you're just purely against the well being of humans other than you, who conviently live on nice land. You know, we are not all born conviently were there is a place with naturally open fields. You don't believe in having farms..and you believe people should be vegetarians. Your beliefs are just so hypocritical.

TREES, HILLS, AND LAKES. Thats what WI is. Lakes are the ONLY "naturally" open spot., and actually, trees even grow into the lakes.

[Res Judicata]

I'm reading "Fast Food Nation" for my Food and the Law class. If you want to know what the meat industry is really like, and how it treats people as well as animals, read the chapters on meat production. Even people who don't get a darn about how cows are treated should be disgusted about the way ranchers, chicken farmers and meatpacking employees are treated by the big companies. Yeah, I know. "The Jungle" is a great slaughterhouse book, too, but it's a little dated.

[caviecrazie]

frashy,

I was using New Zealand as an example. Don't you care about the starving people in Africa, who could be fed if selfish idiots knew if they stopped eating meat, we could have enough food to save them?

"Who are you to say so and so amount of cows is a controled amount?"
My who are you was a reply to that.

Duhh, I know but the fields around us are used for crops.

Oh My Satan. I see you don't understand what I am trying to say at all. We can do nothing to help what has already being changed into fields, what I am trying to say is to stop it from continuing. AKA reduce the demand for meat so trees won't have to be cut down anymore, because animal farming takes up so much of the land.

You have not understood me at all. I am to frustrated to try and make you understand me - it is blatently obvious to me your only seeing what you want to see. You have not understood me. What you have put in your post...that is not....Gahhh, I can't be bothered. Im supposed to be doing coursework anyway.

I mean
"you only have it so humans are only allowed to live in areas where there are naturally open fields,"

What the heck?

"Since you are against farms,"

What? Just animal farms. I mean, if we didn't have crop farms we'd all die. Im not stupid. In fact, I'm actually pretty bright. Quick learner.

[frashy]

Bright learner? Then why is that the fact I am ONLY TALKING ABOUT WI blows right past your head? If you're so bright you wouldn't apply what I say about WI and form an assumption that I don't care. Because, it seems the way you are against cow farming, you pretty much don't care about anyone here in WI because farming is what we are all about. You accuse me of not caring, when I never even stated whether or not if I do. Obviously, yeah, it would suck to be starving. But really, people in Africa have their own problems. We are not going to stop our cows here, just to feed some damn people alll the way over in Africa. Africa has enough land. It's their gov't that's screwy and makes them starv, not what we do over here in America. The cows I eat here, are from no place but WI.

And have you know, Farms are NOT increaseing and taking up land like the way you state. In fact, we are LOSING the farm land, because we choose to of people who build and build while we have empty buildings within the city. I dont know about you, but this is what ticks me off.

And please, you just still love to think your area is so innocent and filled with lovely people just like you who build around farms. I can see maybe your area is not as big into meat farming as WI is. Maybe if it had more importance to your economy of whereever you live, it would be otherwise. Though, you judge everyone who really has it that way..

"selfish idiots"
..right, that sounds real bright. You pretty much assume everyone who eats meat is one. You are not any better, because you too are filled with hate towards them. Your additude is no way to come across to people.

Not everyone has your beliefs, and most certainly have the right to believe whatever they want. There is really nothing to argue about. However if you listen to what I am saying, and become open minded, you wouldn't form such a strick, ignorant opinion, and not acuse everyone as selfish idiots because they don't agree with meating eat is bad.

[crazywiggy]

Just thought I'd add my two pence (or two cents!)

I eat meat. Does that make me selfish? Perhaps it does... My beliefs regarding the ethical issues surrounding meat consumption are far more complex than just taste and convenience, and I can certainly see various sides to the debate.

In many cases, eating meat directly equates to animal abuse. Factory farming, live transport, inhumane slaughter etc. And obviously, in every case, it causes animal death.

It is also well established that farming livestock (as opposed to crops) is a major contributor to climate change.

There is certainly evidence to suggest that many veg*ns are healthier and longer lived than many omnivores.

However - I do not beileve it is so clear cut that we can state veggie is good, omni is bad.

Caviecrazy - you mention you live in the UK. Me too. Are you aware that a lot of our land is used for rearing livestock (particularly sheep) because the land is not suitable for crop farming? Or that when done properly farming is benefical for wildlife (both plants and animals), because of the varied habitats it creates (such as hedgerows etc). This is similar I think to what Frashy was saying.

As for health, we could go into more detail and look at peoples diets generally - regardless of wheter or not they eat meat. As meat eating is still the accepted "norm" most people who decided to go veggie put far more thought into their diet, because they think they need to be more careful. The evidence does not necessarily prove that it is healthier to be veg*n than omni - it could equally be proving that veg*ns take more care about what they eat. There is no evidence to suggest that a balanced diet (inc meat) is unhealthy.

Overall I believe there is nothing wrong with eating meat.
However, I do believe there are many things wrong with certain farming practices - both in terms of animal welfare, the environment etc.
I also believe that more damage is being done to animal welfare and the environment - and especially human health - because most western countries (certainly USA and UK) consume far more meat than is healthy, and insist upon it being cheap (therefore inferior in quality, welfare etc).

Yes, I could be destroying rainforests if I eat a McDonalds burger, because that is one of their major bases for cattle farming. But eating locally sourced lamb, from land that would otherwise not be used is far less of an issue.

As for the starving people in Africa. Do I care???
YES actually - I do. But going veggie is not going to help these people. Much of the land in Africa is not suited for the arable farming we rely on, and can do with ease. In some cases they literally have a choice - either raise animals that can eat the vegetation that grows there - or starve. I am certainly not going to get on my moral high horse and tell them they should go hungry!
Equally, a lot of Africas problems stem from the government. Whatever we do, our eating habits, the aid we give etc - all that is happening is that the rich are geting richer and the poor are still starving.

Overall - I agree with many of the points you make. Eating meat can be responsible for animal abuse. It can damage the environmetn, and it can be unhealthy. But I do not believe that eating a limited amount of meat, raised in an animal and environmentally friendly manner is the heinous crime you seem to think.

One more thing...

I've been talking to people who insist they love animals! And yet...they refuse to give up meat.

So because I eat meat I can not claim to be an animal lover? Should I stop boycotting pet stores, adopting pets, campaigning for change, supporting animal charities, educating people, etc? I mean - obviously I'm an animal hating moron, so why should I bother???

[frashy]

Caviecrazy - you mention you live in the UK. Me too. Are you aware that a lot of our land is used for rearing livestock (particularly sheep) because the land is not suitable for crop farming? Or that when done properly farming is benefical for wildlife (both plants and animals), because of the varied habitats it creates (such as hedgerows etc). This is similar I think to what Frashy was saying.

Yep, that's exactly what I was getting at, except for I applied it with our creatures we have over here in the states. I am just so terrible at wording what I am trying to say.

I also completely agree with everything else you have been saying. You are such a good writter, that's definally a skill I see in your posts. That's something I myself have to work on!