Hey, I have found out a lot - thanks to omnivores

[caviecrazie]

Quick learner actually.

"Then why is that the fact I am ONLY TALKING ABOUT WI blows right past your head?"

LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE THEN. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE WORLD IN GENERAL.

What you are saying is not blowing past my head, its just you don't seem to understand me.

I can't believe what you have said about Africa. Its so damn cold.

"It's their gov't that's screwy and makes them starv"

That makes it all alright then.

"not what we do over here in America"

No, instead you just see America being accused of being an obese makeup of people...on TV. I am fully aware not everyone is like that.

"We are not going to stop our cows here just to feed some damn people alll the way over in Africa"

Do it for the other reasons then. I love cows....they're so cute. I think eating meat is heartless...how can you eat such lovely animals? Pigs are cleverer than children but you would never eat a child...According to Viva! pigs can play simple computer games.

"And have you know, Farms are NOT increaseing and taking up land like the way you state."

Gosh. So all the different sources I looked at must be wrong...

"And please, you just still love to think your area is so innocent and filled with lovely people just like you who build around farms."

Okaii, you carry on thinking I think that. Although I dont.

"Though, you judge everyone who really has it that way.."

How do you know?

""selfish idiots"
You pretty much assume everyone who eats meat is one. You are not any better, because you too are filled with hate towards them."

Gosh. That is so true. I guess thats why my I'm friends with animal eaters. My best friend is one. I know she doesn't know what I know about vegetarianism though...I guess most people don't.

"Your additude is no way to come across to people."

I care. Really. And your attitude is much better?


"Not everyone has your beliefs, and most certainly have the right to believe whatever they want."

Hitler. He believed the Jews should all die. Its okaii to believe even if it costs lives, your personal health, damage to the enviroment and future generations, murdering animals...pain, suffering.

I am glad I don't have those beliefs.

"There is really nothing to argue about. However if you listen to what I am saying, and become open minded, you wouldn't form such a strick, ignorant opinion, and not acuse everyone as selfish idiots because they don't agree with meating eat is bad."

I had an open mind. I used to think vegetarianism was about animals. But I looked and listened to the arguments for and against. And came to a conclusion.

If you can, give me 15 good reasons to eat meat.

[caviecrazie]

"I eat meat. Does that make me selfish? Perhaps it does... My beliefs regarding the ethical issues surrounding meat consumption are far more complex than just taste and convenience, and I can certainly see various sides to the debate."

Heh...You can show me reasons to eat meat. I've been looking - and its all shallow, stupid reasons that I can find. Y'know, jokey reasons like 'why are animals made out of meat then?" [uhh why are humans? Does that mean we should be cannibals?] and 'it tastes nice'...So plz tell. I wanna know. When we debated nobody had many reasons for eating meat XD

"In many cases, eating meat directly equates to animal abuse. Factory farming, live transport, inhumane slaughter etc. And obviously, in every case, it causes animal death."

"It is also well established that farming livestock (as opposed to crops) is a major contributor to climate change."

"There is certainly evidence to suggest that many veg*ns are healthier and longer lived than many omnivores."

Yup.

"As for health, we could go into more detail and look at peoples diets generally - regardless of wheter or not they eat meat. As meat eating is still the accepted "norm" most people who decided to go veggie put far more thought into their diet, because they think they need to be more careful. "

We do? I don't notice. I generally eat the same as everyone else - minus meat and add quorn alternatives or something.

Overall I believe there is nothing wrong with eating meat.
However, I do believe there are many things wrong with certain farming practices - both in terms of animal welfare, the environment etc.
I also believe that more damage is being done to animal welfare and the environment - and especially human health - because most western countries (certainly USA and UK) consume far more meat than is healthy, and insist upon it being cheap (therefore inferior in quality, welfare etc).

Yes, I could be destroying rainforests if I eat a McDonalds burger, because that is one of their major bases for cattle farming. But eating locally sourced lamb, from land that would otherwise not be used is far less of an issue."

>cries< Lambss <333 But eating meat isn't too great for your health.

As for the starving people in Africa. Do I care???
YES actually - I do. But going veggie is not going to help these people. Much of the land in Africa is not suited for the arable farming we rely on, and can do with ease. In some cases they literally have a choice - either raise animals that can eat the vegetation that grows there - or starve. "

Animals in Africa get a better value of life, I think. I would prefer animals to be eaten in Africa than in MEDC's.


"Overall - I agree with many of the points you make. Eating meat can be responsible for animal abuse. It can damage the environmetn, and it can be unhealthy. But I do not believe that eating a limited amount of meat, raised in an animal and environmentally friendly manner is the heinous crime you seem to think."

I think its fine to eat meat - if you raise and kill the animal yourself.

"So because I eat meat I can not claim to be an animal lover?"

I just don't understand how you can say you love animals...then eat one. I love cows, so I don't go around eating them.

[crazywiggy]

Heh...You can show me reasons to eat meat. I've been looking - and its all shallow, stupid reasons that I can find. Y'know, jokey reasons like 'why are animals made out of meat then?" [uhh why are humans? Does that mean we should be cannibals?] and 'it tastes nice'...So plz tell. I wanna know. When we debated nobody had many reasons for eating meat XD

I think you misunderstood the point of my post.
I wasn't trying to say that I think people should eat meat. Far from it. I just do not agree that we shouldn't.

But since you have specifically asked about my beliefs, and "reasons to eat meat" I will explain how I feel about it:

Having looked at the evidence presented by both sides, I believe that human beings are by nature omnivorous. We can digest meat, dairy etc in a way that most true veggie species can not. We do not have the multiple stomachs, or internal microorgansisms etc of the true herbivores, so we can not get most of the benefit from green foods. We could not survive or thrive on nothing but fruit and veg because of the vitamins, minerals, fats etc that we would lack. And as most natural plant based foods are low in calories and virtually fat free, we would not get enough energy from them either.

Our bodies are designed for a varied diet. We need to get the protein, b-vitamins etc from somewhere.

Meat is the most natural way to do this. It provides the nutrients we can not get - or would have difficulty getting - from other sources. Lean meat, in appropriate amounts, is healthy.

Anyway, long story short (ish), human beings are designed to consumed a certain amount of animal products. A natural diet for us is a varied one, which includes meat.

There are a great many species which are omnivorous or carnivorous. I do not believe it is morally wrong for a shark to eat fish, a bird to eat worms, or a wolf to eat deer. By this same principle I do not believe it is morally wrong for a person (an omnivore) to eat meat.

I just don't understand how you can say you love animals...then eat one.

I assume you realise that very few people in the world actually share identical beliefs?

I have made it clear on many occasions that I personally do not believe in "animal rights", but that I do fully believe in "animal welfare".
If I had no concerns (or love) for animals, then I wouldn't care about animal welfare.

My personal belief is that it is morally wrong to cause any creature (human or animal) unnecessary suffering.
The emphasis here being on both unnecessary and suffering.

For example - I am completely against intensive farming because it causes suffering. It is unnecessary because it is does purely to increase profits.

However, death itself does not automatically cause suffering. Death may be a terrible, terrifying experience - or it may be a peaceful, pain free, humane death.
Hence I would prefer to see better legislation and working practices to ensure humane slaughter of livestock.

As I have stated, I do not believe it is morally wrong to kill an animal to eat it. But I do believe it is wrong to cause an animal to suffer, so that you can eat it.
All animals should have a good quality of life and a humane death.

I claim to be an animal lover because I do genuinely care about animals. I do not like to see animals suffer, nor do I like to see them needlessly destroyed. And I do make the effort to live by my beliefs... I eat a low meat diet, eat meat from the most humane sources, etc. I adopt - not buy - pets. I spend my own time and money trying to educate people, campaigning, supporting animal welfare, rescue, conservation etc. Just because I don't weep and wail about how terrible it is for a meat eating species to eat meat, doesn't mean I don't care at all.

Animals in Africa get a better value of life, I think. I would prefer animals to be eaten in Africa than in MEDC's.

What a lovely pigeonhole you have just put us all in!
Perhaps you should judge each case individually? Would you say an animal farmed in the UK to free range, organic, and RSPCA "freedom food" certified standards, is worse off than some of the starving livestock animals in Africa, who are in some cases denied a proper diet, any shelter or vet care?

If you don't mind me asking - are you vegetarian or strictly vegan?
You seem to have such strong views on how it wrong to kill animals for food, but unless you are vegan you are still doing just that. Dairy products, eggs etc all directly result in animal death.

[caviecrazie]

I can't be bothered to debate back. I have loadz of work to do so...I'm vegetarian, but I hope to become vegan in the near future.

"And I do make the effort to live by my beliefs... I eat a low meat diet, eat meat from the most humane sources, etc. I adopt - not buy - pets."

Ahh so your saying eating meat adds to animal suffering. So less meat = less suffering. So...no meat...

Anywayz - in Britain, the average person consumes 11,047 animals in their lifetime. http://www.vivaactivists.org.uk/ <--- from there.

If your a vegetarian, you save a decent amount. Nearly the same amount as is killed for meat. Obviously, take away some because of dairy but...whoo...

"I do not believe it is morally wrong to kill an animal to eat it."

Okaii. It's just I see it as murder. Like Leonardo Da Vinci said [was it him?].

Pahh. So, I take it you don't believe 'it will be an evolutionary step for humankind' like Einstein. I agree with him. I can't put my reason into words though.

"I do not believe it is morally wrong for a shark to eat fish, a bird to eat worms, or a wolf to eat deer. By this same principle I do not believe it is morally wrong for a person (an omnivore) to eat meat."

me neither. But they aren't evolved and civilized like were supposed to be.

Like I said before::
I think its fine to eat meat - if you raise and kill the animal yourself.

[caviecrazie]

Okaii then. Say meat is okaii. What about the other reasons not to eat it, not just the animals?

http://www.vivaactivists.org.uk/campaigns/proud.php

Viva <3333

[FoolOnTheHill]

"Anywayz - in Britain, the average person consumes 11,047 animals in their lifetime."

Let's round to 11,000, shall we. Say I live to 78, as is the average life expectancy in the UK. That calculates as approx. 141 animals a year, 11 animals a month, 2.75 animals a week. I don't think so, somehow.

"If your a vegetarian, you save a decent amount."
Dismissing the numbers involved, I suppose it really comes down to whether you believe by not eating an animal you are saving it. Personally, I don't think I am saving an animal, because I do not think it is wrong that I would have eaten them anyway. You may be saving them. I am simply not eating them.

I had a look at the Viva! website. As I often see, the animal welfare/environmental side seems to have two options available: factory farming or vegetarianism. As you are quoting an awful lot from the site, one assumes you agree with their statements and morals.

Take their opening lines.
"Eating meat; fish and dairy causes environmental destruction, damages human health, contributes to global hunger and inflicts immense suffering on billions of animals across the world."

These are very bolshy and weighty statements with little regard to a 'happy medium' between veggie/factory farming - local, free range meat. It is here that I lie.
Next week, my Uncle is delivering a whole lamb to us. It was born at his home, lived in his field with a small number of other sheep, would have recieved good food, and health care if needed from my aunt, who is a qualified vet. I can't say how it was slaughtered, but I know my uncle would not have let it suffer unneccesserily. I cannot see how this is causing environmental destruction, damaging my health, contributing to global hunger or inflicting suffering. Perhaps you could enlighten me?
I know you said you don't think eating your own animals is wrong - but in my opinion that means you shouldn't support such statements as Viva produce. The statement doesn't divide between humanely treated stock and factory farms, so neither can you when debating it. It merely says "eating meat".

I am aware not many people are able to raise livestock as he does, but even so, eating small amounts of local, well tended meat is in my opinion, perfectly acceptable. You do not seem to have any consideration for farmers raising livestock in the UK (therefore, rainforests don't come into the equation, and transport emissions are substantially reduced), and providing them with good care.

As for your statements about African animals suffering less... I could see where you are coming from if you are speaking of factory farmed animals. However, there is absaloutly no correlation between African livestock and the animals being raised outside in the UK. There is barely anything for them to eat there - whereas the hills and fields of the UK have plenty enough grass and forage for them. They will recieve no veterinary care; farmers here are generally quick to treat their livestock. It would be to their disadvantage not to.

I am truly interested in your thoughts on this... what do you not agree with about humanely reared, locally produced meat? But I suppose as you see it as murder it doesn't really matter.

[crazywiggy]

Right - so first off you are being very hypocritical.
You claim that meat is murder, that killing animals is completely selfish, that consuming animal products is unhealthy, and that raising livestock is going to starve people and destroy the planet.

But YOU still eat animal products. What about the thousands of male chicks killed by the chicken industry? What about the calves taken away from their mothers at days old, to be slaughtered as veal or beef? By your own reasoning, is this not also unhealthy, unethical and murder?

As to your other points:

I personally do not believe evolution or civilisation has anything to do with it. I believe human beings are designed to eat an onmivorous diet, therefore I do not see it as an ethical issue. As I said before, I have no problem with anyone who has a different opinion - but then I'm not the one critisizing everyone who disagrees with me, or trying to force my beliefs onto others.

What about the other reasons not to eat it, not just the animals?

Health:

I suggest you actually take a closer look at the health info on that link you gave. It gives little evidence that eating animal products is generaly unhealthy, or that a veg*n diet is any better. Most of their examples simply miss out the middle bit of the explanation.

For example, many of the diseases listed are associated with a diet too low in fruit and veg, too low in fibre, or too high in fat etc.
What they fail to tell you is that it is perfectly possible to eat a balanced diet, with plenty of fibre, fruit and veg, low in fat etc without going veggie.

Others relate to poor animal husbandry and welfare. For example, factory farmed meat tends to be higher in fat and lower in nutrients. Some countries (not the UK incidentally) give livestock growth hormones. Problems caused by such bad practice could be resolved by decent standards of husbandry - a high welfare, free range, organic system for example. You can't pump a cow full of harmful chemicals and then blame the cow!

Some issues only apply to a limited amount of people. Yes, dairy products trigger migraine in some sufferers - but not all. And this is obviously not a concern at all for the millions of people who do not get migraines anyway.

Another interesting claim is about allergies. Personally I have never met a single person with an allergy to meat. The only common issue is lactose intolerance. On the other hand the number of people with potentially fatal nut allergies is phenomenol. I have also met people with allergies to various other non-animal products, including bell peppers, strawberries and soy to name a few.

I fully agree that our health is directly influenced by diet. As mentioned before, too little fruit and veg, too much sat fat or salt, too little fibre etc... all these things can result in poor health.
It is just far too simple to say that meat is bad, veggie is good. You can eat a very healthy omni diet, or a very poor veggie diet.

Feeding the world:

This is the biggest crock I have ever heard!

People in the UK and US going veggie is not suddenly going to cause a veritable feast to magically appear in Africa.
There are 2 main reasons for starvation in Africa. One, is the government, as mentioned previously. Many wealthier countries have sent billions in aid - yet almost none has actually reached the poeple is was intended for. The people in power have simply lined their pockets, whilst allowing their countrymen to starve. The other erason is the natural geology, climate etc in parts of the country. The landscape, soil quality, rainfall etc all make it very difficult to grow crops that people can eat. If it was a simple matter of planting a few seeds starvation wouldn't be an issue.

Either way - veg*n diets are not going to affect these issues. Even if we scrapped livestock farming and grew crops instead - what would we do with them? Sell them to Africa? They can't afford it. Give it to them? Great - the people in power would sell it and get richer, the poor would continue to starve.

Like it or not we do not live in one big, happy communist world. We are a world of separate countires, all out for themselves. Unless you personally deliver all your leftover grain to the starving, going veggie is not going to do anything to help.

The environment:

I have already said that I appreciate the damage caused to the environment by farming. Although bad practice in crop farming has also caused some horrendous problems - DDTs, destruction of native plant species, insects and wildlife, adverse effects on the landscape etc.

Yes, farming animals contributes to climate change. So does central heating, electricity, driving, flying, etc.
If we continue to drive everywhere in gas guzzling cars, keep our heating or air con on all the time, forget where the "off" switch is on appliances, take long haul flights, etc then no amount of veg*ns are going to save the planet.

In my opinion, saving the planet is only possible if we reduce the amount of energy we consume (by not being such a selfish, wasteful society) and by converting to green energy (e.g solar).

I hope this makes some sense. I have already stated quite clearly I am not against people choosing to be veg*n - I have a lot of respect for them. I believe most people eat too much meat for their health. I belive that certain practices are not justified. But I can't help but get annoyed by the attitude that just because I'm omni I must be a selfish murderer who doesn't care about animals.

[frashy]

me neither. But they aren't evolved and civilized like were supposed to be.

Evoluation is a big part of it. Why do you think we are different from wild animals? We can take control of our own food sources, unlike wild animals who rely on nature to produce their food. How we achieve our food and how we prepare it is from our intelligence. Our intelligence is what makes us not seem like wild animals. We have the intelligence to grow our own food. So, if you are so about being natural, then you should be going out in the wild, find wild grown plants, and getting down on your knees and grabbing the forages right from earth with your mouth. Now that's what wild animals do.

Instead, we ARE developed. We have the intelligence to produce our OWN food. We can do it in controled amounts. We no longer have to rely on the wild for our food, and go hunting. We instead have the ability to take our food and produce it ourselves. That goes for both meat AND plants. Don't feel guilty about evolution. It's called natural selection, it happened for the sake of HUMAN survival. There is NOTHING unatural about that.

It's just to the point that we not only can control and reproduce our own food, instead of the wild doing it for us, but we can do it in mass amount of produce. I think this is where you are coming in. You say there is nothing wrong with raising your own animals (controling your food growth [plants AND meat] ), but somehow you get this guilty consious over doing it in a mass produce way. I can see that, because of the animal abuse you see that is caused by this.

However, if your dreams come true and no one eats meat..how do you decide what is humane for cows? And this is what I ment by "who are you to say anything about the well being of cows?" Because a reason you are against farming is the deforesation you are talking about. But you don't see, if you expect cows to live, those cows are still going to need the land to roam, if you are talking about humanely treating animals. So then the only answer is to stop breeding..but who are you to say anything about the life of these cows as to their existance of their species? Who are you to say what's a controled amount of cows alive?