UK TV -- Right Now 29/04/08

[ArtisticRainey]

More4 are showing a program called Our Daily Bread. It's about factory farming. There is NO commentary, NO views are being passed on. It's just showing. I shall not pass comment on what I think of it.

It deals with plants as well as animals, and a thought struck me: is it possible to be truly vegan in the sense that absolutely no living creatures are harmed? Because when we grow crops, insects nest in them. Their habitat is then destroyed. As well as that, what of the animals that used to live on the land?

I suppose the point is that the intent was not to harm them; it was just an unfortunate side-effect. But that argument can go down the slippery slope very quickly. Harm is still made. Where do we draw the line? Is total veganism an impossible goal that we should always strive for?

[Susan9608]

No, I don't think it's possible to live in such a way that you never cause harm. But I don't think that's really the goal - I think the goal of veganism is to live - and to promote living - in such a way that reduces harm and suffering as much as possible.

Simple acts like driving or even walking down the street have potential to do harm to numerous insects. You kill bacteria just by washing your hands or brushing your teeth. And, unfortunately, with crop farming a certain number of animals will be harmed, either through the loss of their habitat or through the machinery itself.

However, when you compare the number of animals suffering currently, with our factory farm system and primarily meat based diet (at least here in America) with the number of animals who would suffer with a primarily vegan diet, the number would be significantly less. Not only would there be no animals raised for food - and tortured in the process - but less crops would have to be raised to feed those animals, so less habitats would have to be destroyed and there would be less potential for animals to be harmed by farm machinery.

I think the responsible thing is to live in such a way as to do as little damage as possible. Vegan diets and vegetarian diets do significantly less damage than carnivorous diets, not only to the animals themselves, but to the environment, and to human beings (through decreased obesity, better health, etc.)

I understand the point of saying that yes, you can still cause harm - and will - with a vegan diet, to some extent, but to use that as a reason to continue raising animals slaughter is, in my opinion, pure rationalization.

[ArtisticRainey]

I agree with what you're saying -- I am vegan. I was just pondering. As I said it comes down to intent. If your intention is to not overtly cause any harm, IE: killing animals for food, then that's fine. Accidents and self-defense are different from murder. I say self-defense to refer to bacteria, because if you let them breed, they can kill you. Not because they want to; just because that's what they are.

Driving cars not only poses a danger to insects that can be squashed, sucked up and such, or animals that can be hit. The emissions cause damage to the environment and thus endangering a whole host of other creatures, including themselves. I own a car, but I try to use it as little as possible. I love walking and try to use public transport, but with a dodgy hip sometimes it's not possible.

[Alusdra]

I agree- it's hard to find that line of what you feel is acceptable or not. But I think so long as you don't set that line in stone and are willing to move it as you find better ways of doing things- that's really the best that you can do.

As for factory farming- how about buying local organic produce as much as possible. It's fun to have your diet vary by season and it's usually tastier. And if you buy direct from the farmer the organic stuff (or just not factory farmed but still fertilized etc. stuff) is generally a lot tastier.

[muffin]

I'm always stuck in the quandry of whether to not eat meat because I don't want the animals to be killed in the industrial plant methods, - but if I buy the meat that is organic and free range, I'm voting with my wallet and supporting better welfare standards. I don't know if welfare standards are a good enough reason to buy meat. After all, for every organic, free range pampered chicken I buy, male chicks will have been killed, and the birds still had to be transported and put thrugh the horrible slaughter system that must be very scary.

I don't think veganism or vegatarianism will ever take over, because too many people eat cheap meat, so is there any point in me trying to support better welfare standards?

I was excited to see that documentary and taped it. Just watched half of it this afternoon and then turned it off because I got bored. It's a concept type film. The lack of commentary is supposed to emphasise the homogeneity and soullessness of modern food production. I get it, but it's just not interesting enough. I prefer a bit of commentary with some facts and figures. No doubt the film has won all kinds of awards. It's very effective, but I didn't learn anything new.

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by muffin

I don't think veganism or vegatarianism will ever take over, because too many people eat cheap meat, so is there any point in me trying to support better welfare standards?

I believe this same line of thinking was present when people had slaves - not having slaves will never take over, so where is the point in me giving up my slaves now or thinking they should be paid?


To the OP, it is always possible to be 100% vegan, because vegan is about causing no harm or exploitation wherever practical and possible. So while (at this time) it may be impossible to live a life 100% free of cruelty, suffering or exploitation, it is still possible to be 100% vegan as long as you are doing the best you possibly can right now