Taking Friends Out To Dinner, and Paying For Meat Dinners?

[ScottandDebbie]

Scott and I have been vegan/ veg for three years now.
Not a bit of meat has passed our lips from that time on.
Thanks to viewing a PETA video. (I still cry when I revisit that video.)
The ONLY reason we are vegetarians is because of animal cruelty.

We have been having a discussion about the times that we take our friends and relatives out to dinner.
(Tough Discussion Here for Us.)

We are strict vegetarians, but yet when we take friends out to dinner, we PAY for their dinners that have meat. This is difficult for us to do. We are now thinking that we will start a new approach when asking friends to dinner.

"We would love to take you out to dinner, and happily pay for you to have a wonderful vegetarian meal on us." BUT...If you order meat... you have to pay for it."

OK... fellow vegetarian's...
What are you doing about paying for dinners of friends who order meat dishes?

[newpiggiemommy]

That is a tough one! On one hand you don't want to force your opinion on the ones you love, but on the other hand you don't want to support the meat industry!

I don't know what I would do! I am very new to all of this (only one month) and I haven't had to deal with family and friends in person yet! I have heard an ear full from my mom though! She doesn't think it is right to make my children be meat free!

[VoodooJoint]

In my opinion, if you offer to take someone out to dinner, you need to pay for whatever they order. Making a conditional dinner offer is unacceptable in my opinion and can cause hard feelings between friends. The only graceful way out is to not offer to take omnivores out to dinner in the first place OR choose a vegetarian restaurant if one exists near you.

You can always ask friends to go out to dinner with you and go "Dutch" where each member pays for their own meal. You will have no less of a good time but won't feel like you are supporting their meat eating.

The only way you could really insist upon a vegetarian meal is to invite them over to your home for a meal. I have done that many times and have never received a complaint from meat eaters over the fact that the meal was vegetarian. In most cases the didn't even realize that there was no meat.

It's a tricky situation and one you must weigh out yourself. Your friends may feel like you are judging them (you would be) and pressuring them (this too) into adopting your ethics. A more "snarky" friend could insist that if they take you out to dinner that you must eat meat or they won't pay for your dinner. It would be a nasty and petty thing to do but it could happen and cause a rift in an otherwise beautiful friendship.

[Ashes.]

Veg friendly resturant?

That way, there is no chance of them buying meat?

Also, if you are say, going to Dennys. Even if you dont buy meat are you not still, in form supporting Dennys, which supports Animal cruelty, in a sense?

But, I'm veg too. For a number of diffrent reasons and if I take my dad out eat and he wants a steak, well... Im going to buy my dad a steak. Eh. It sucks but. What am I going to do? Tell him "Dad, look I love you, but really, I'm not buying you meat, if you want me to pay, you have to eat something you do not want, something that will leave you unhappy." Eh, they are going to eat meat regaurdless. If I bought him a soy plate stuff he does not like, he will end up buying a burger or taco on the way home...

*shrugs*

Good luck though.
Plus, thumbs up on going vegan.

[Percy's Mom]

I honestly don't think you have the option to refuse to pay for their meat meal. If you only want to pay for veg meals, I see three options for you. Have everyone pay for their own meals, so you would only pay for yourself and Scott; go to a vegetarian restaurant, or cook dinner at your home, so you know that the meal is completely vegetarian.

[thalestral]

I would look for a vegan restaurant nearby, cook at home and invite people over, or arrange before hand that everyone pays for themselves

If they are close and good friends then you could discuss your feelings with them and maybe come to an agreement that way.

[Susan9608]

This is another situation that I would see as personal purity vs. effective advocacy. By insisting on being personally pure - not paying for and supporting the meat industry for anyone - you will most likely totally turn off your friends towards anything to do with vegetarianism/veganism because they will probably be offended - as VJ said - by having your morals/ethics forced on them.

Better to be an advocate for the cause than personally pure, in my opinion.

[CF#5]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Better to be an advocate for the cause than personally pure, in my opinion.

This is contradictory to Gandhi's famous idea to "be the change you want to see in the world." Staying personally pure is setting the example for others to follow. Being an "advocate" shouldn't ever require you to compromise the beliefs and behavior you're trying to promote. It's nothing short of hypocritical.

I say go to a vegetarian/vegan only restaurant, or cook for them, but don't leave the door open even a crack to let it become an issue. I wouldn't even go to a veg-friendly restaurant that also serves meat unless I knew for sure no meat would be ordered. If reasonable vegetarian options are available, your friends should be understanding enough to respect your wishes, and if not, you might want to reexamine the entire friendship. If it becomes confrontational, make sure you have planned out exactly how you're going to express yourself, i.e., make sure there's no confusion about your reasons for imposing restrictions. It has nothing to do with judging them, their behavior, or their beliefs, and everything to do with your refusal to compromise your own.

It all depends on where you want to draw YOUR line in the sand. Everybody draws it in a slightly different place. It sounds to me like this is important enough to you that I think you have every right to prohibit your friends from ordering items that are indisputably cruel, such as meat, cheese, and fish. Whether you want to micromanage your friends' consumption of the less obvious items, such as non-vegan wine or beer and desserts that may contain a minimal amount of animal by-products could be a separate issue. Although I avoid all of these items myself, I still make a distinction between actual meat and by-products like gelatin. The use of gelatin is widespread because it's available and it's cheap. If everyone stopped eating meat, the gelatin supply would dry up and vegan substitutes like agar would have to be used instead. So you might not want to micromanage other people who have no desire to stay pure outside your presence. That's up to you, because that can definitely alienate people, and in that sense, I think Susan is right. But if the friendship isn't strong enough for them to respect your wishes to not eat meat when they ARE in your presence (especially when you're paying for it), again, you might want to reexamine the entire friendship.

[Susan9608]

I think if you follow CF's line of thought, you might end up with one of these:

A more "snarky" friend could insist that if they take you out to dinner that you must eat meat or they won't pay for your dinner.

Of course, I suppose you could boil that down to a friendship not worth keeping.

Being an "advocate" shouldn't ever require you to compromise the beliefs and behavior you're trying to promote.

Don't worry, CF, I doubt anyone would ever accuse you of being an effective advocate. Refraining from eating meat yourself is setting the example you want to see in the world. It's showing your friends that they can still eat out at restaurants and have a tasty meal, but it's doing so in a way that doesn't shove vegetarianism/veganism in their face and turn them off to the whole idea (as I imagine someone saying, "Oh let me take you out to dinner ... but only if you order and eat what I want you to eat," would.) Hardly hypocrisy.

[ScottandDebbie]

Still listening closely to all your postings.
Thank You.

Our *truest* goal is NOT to push our beliefs upon another, but to hold true to our heart's intention, and that is to NOT harm animals.

This is really a tough one.

I believe the way in which we approach this with our friends is going to forecast the outcome. Non-judgmental attitude is essential.

For the most parts we do invite our friends/ family to our home for dinners, and for times that restaurants are needed or required, we do seek out the vegetarian eateries. This is not always an easy task. And this is where the challenge comes into play.

All our friends know that we are vegetarians if they have taken us out to dinner, or have ask us over to their house for dinner. If they ask us why we are vegetarians we share with them... but NEVER purposely put them into positions of pressing our convictions upon another.

By paying for a dinner that has meat upon it... I feel we contributed in the killing of that animal.

Appreciating your thoughts and ideas.

[Susan9608]

Why not do something with your friends/relatives that doesn't involve food? You could make the suggestion to go ... bowling (or whatever) and when they ask why, explain nicely your dilemma about the food and this being your solution. Depending on how badly they don't want to go bowling, they might either a) offer to order something vegetarian or b) offer to pay for their own meals. Thus the decision is theirs and not yours, you stay true to your position and the friendship remains intact.

[CF#5]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Hardly hypocrisy.

I think you misunderstood. What is hypocritical is the willingness to compromise your own purity for the sake of avoiding a confrontation, when in fact, you're only avoiding that confrontation in hopes of getting on somebody's good side so they'll hopefully be more likely to adopt the same criteria and requirements for their own purity that you've set for yourself. It's like telling people not to own guns because they can cause serious personal injury, only to shoot yourself in the foot as a demonstration.

A more "snarky" friend could insist that if they take you out to dinner that you must eat meat or they won't pay for your dinner.

If anyone ever did that to me, I'd cut all ties to the offending person immediately. I'm not the slightest bit afraid to tell someone to go to hell if they cross me just once. It takes a special individual to be worthy of a second chance after pulling crap like that. Still, a second chance would be dependent on a lack of understanding of some sort that led to the original offensive lack of consideration. If the original intent was malicious, the offender might end up laying in a pool of his own blood courtesy of my fist prior to having his number erased from my phone.

Originally Posted by ScottandDebbie

By paying for a dinner that has meat upon it... I feel we contributed in the killing of that animal.

Yes and no. I totally understand where you're coming from, and I might be contradicting what I said earlier in this post, but money is an artificial, arbitrary invention of humanity. It has nothing to do with nature. The social cues and expectations that dictate how financial matters are handled in human interactions (such as who pays for dinner based on who was invited and who did the inviting) doesn't really have any impact on the real issue at hand, which is animal cruelty. Regardless of who pays for the meal, you're not the one who killed the animal, you're not the one who ordered the food, and you're not the one who ate the food (which is in essence the same thing as killing the animal). The only way you actually contribute to it is by creating a situation in which your friends order meat. You can say if you hadn't invited them out to dinner, they wouldn't have ordered it. But that's only half the story, because they'd still eat SOMETHING that day. Maybe instead of going out to eat with you where they each have a 10-ounce steak, they'd stay home and barbecue 2-3 pounds of hot dogs. You would have actually helped reduce the overall consumption of animals by paying for these hypothetical 10-ounce steaks. Personally, I wouldn't consider that a victory, but that's me.

You just have to decide what's right for you. Like I said before, if it's important enough to you, draw the line in the sand and stand your ground. Your real friends will not betray you over this, and if they do, good riddance.

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by ScottandDebbie

By paying for a dinner that has meat upon it... I feel we contributed in the killing of that animal.

For what it's worth, these are my thoughts as well. I haven't yet been put in a position to exercise it due to my finances, but I plan on just being honest about my feelings.

I couldn't buy meat for someone else out of a supermarket, even if they gave me the money to do so. Perhaps that analogy would help.