30 Reasons to go Vegitarian

[Susan9608]

In fact, someone who opens a conversation by indicating that she doesn't eat meat, but qualifies it by adding that she only does it for health reasons and doesn't really care about animals she's "saving" is actually contributing to the discriminatory bias of speciesism.

But in this situation - the vegetarianism should still be encouraged because whether or not this particular individual gives a crap about the animals, the animals are still being helped by her actions. Perhaps some where along the line she'll realize or begin to care that her actions have an impact on others besides herself. You don't want to discourage anyone from being vegetarian by saying that they are vegetarian for the wrong reasons ...

[CF#5]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

But in this situation - the vegetarianism should still be encouraged because whether or not this particular individual gives a crap about the animals, the animals are still being helped by her actions. Perhaps some where along the line she'll realize or begin to care that her actions have an impact on others besides herself. You don't want to discourage anyone from being vegetarian by saying that they are vegetarian for the wrong reasons ...

I'm not discouraging anyone from doing anything. I'm only indicating that someone who is doing it for selfish reasons isn't "on the bus," and such individuals shouldn't receive credit for promoting animal rights, simply because their behavior is not motivated for that particular reason.

[luvsgiraffes]

Originally Posted by CF#5pig

I don't discriminate based on species, so to me, the only difference between a captive-bred cow and my own guinea pigs is that the animal from which the meat originated is unknown to me. I don't eat meat, because it's the same as eating somebody else's guinea pig. I wouldn't eat your guinea pigs and you wouldn't eat mine. The only consequential difference between a captive-bred cow living his miserable, short life on a beef farm and a homeless guinea pig in an animal shelter is the substantial physical size difference between them, nothing more.

Telling people how gross what is - eating meat, or the sacrifices we have to make to not eat meat?

I don't discriminate against animals. In fact this is the very reason that I started being a vegetarian. I would not eat my dog or any dog for that matter so why should I eat a cow, pig other animal.

And what I meant was telling people whow gross the process of the slaughter house is. I know so many people who have read Upton Sinclair's- The Jungle and say... "That's so sad... I should become a vegetarian" and then the next day go and get a hamburger... People don't know how to follow through and What I meant about impracticallity is that for some people being a vegetarian is very impractical. I know when I was a freshman in the dorms I ate at the dinning commons. There is usually a vegetarian option, but not always... on those nights I would eat a salad fom the salad bar. But this is not really a long term or practical thing. A person cannot eat salad 2 meals a day or survive on french fries. My family does not have a lot of money and a meal plan was required, so even if I got the lowest one and still went to the store to buy protien etc that is a waste of money since we already had to buy the meal plan.

Now that I live in an apartment and have my car (and dont have to buy a meal plan) I can go to the store and buy whatever I please. This will ensure that I am able to eat a balanced diet. This is what I meant by impractical... for health and monetary reasons.

Also, when I have said something I have been told that it is not my place... and in a way they are right... if they do not make a fuss and criticize me for choosing to eat the way that I eat then who am I to judge them?
I dont mind discussing and sharing... but I dont want people judging me because of a decision I have made. This makes me feel like I sometimes dont have a right to tell them they are wrong. I hope this makes sense?

I do understand that for most people being a vegetarian is not impractical, it is pure lazyness and being unwilling to make a major lifestyle change.
I do encourage people to try being a vegetarian if they seem open to the idea, but right now in my life I feel that I dont know enough to be on a full fledged crusade etc. I think its great we have poeple to lead the way by telling everyone else how awful animal slaughter is etc but, I personally am just choosing to lead mostly by my example.

[Alusdra]

I've seen this video around and honestly, it sort of makes me want to eat more meat rather then less. It's too over the top. Animal welfare is a big issue for me, but that video makes me chuckle a bit. "Animals scream just like you!" I mean, come on. It's pure shock value. In some ways it's almost harmful to trying to get someone to become more conscious by being that combative.

I do still eat animals, but I definitely want the whole process to be as humane as possible. My solution is more to try to buy local meat from farms that I can visit. Helps to support local farmers versus larger factory-type situations and is tastier. But I've stopped with organic (animal products) since in organic farming animals can't be treated with antibiotics ever- even if they get sick. Anyway, as per that article a while ago you're far more likely to get a dose of meds from tap water than a steak, milk, eggs, whatever. I know that's not the only reason behind the organic movement, but the more I learn the more disturbed I am about the whole thing.

But in general I think we as a country, people, species, whatever- we eat too much meat. It seems to me more practical if everyone in the world could cut down on their consumption (especially in the US) so that we don't need these huge productions where standard of care is hard to maintain. We should be getting much of our proteins and nutrients from veggie methods. I'm beginning to feel the veg*n's pain even being an opportunistic omnivore when I go somewhere and they meal is MEAT with a side of meat, with some greasy meaty meat as an appetizer. Makes me desperate for some veggies, or beans, or... gah! even some other animal product like cheese just to break it up. It's depressing how every flipping meal is so meat centered... to the point I suggested to my dad when visiting that we stop having steak every night and he suggested chicken, lamb, pork... I asked for something not meat and he just looked at me in confusion and asked 'what would we eat then?'...

But probably eating less meat is a more approachable goal for 'converting' people, as is getting them to eat more humane meat. Like that challenge- I easily go weeks or months not eating any meat at all, just because I try out more veggie dishes. It's certainly healthier and I've had good success getting most/all of my family and a good chunk of my friends hooked on tasty no-meat meal options. So as a group, we probably are 50-80% vegetarian. Extrapolate to the world and that's pretty cool.

Probably that's a goal that will be attacked by hard-line AR people, but that's sort of my point, I guess. If it's going towards a goal of less animals eaten and those that are are better treated- why attack your allies, eh? Attack us after most people are 80% vegetarian. You know, sneaky sneaky!

[PiggieMamaKelly]

Alusdra, I totally agree with you that people eat FAR more meat than is reasonable or even healthy. Even if I believed eating meat was morally correct, this whole routine of bacon for breakfast, turkey sandwhich for lunch, and steak for dinner is most certainly not optimal for the human body. I just read something the other day about how Americans get far too much protein- which is actually unhealthy (all the while most omnivores are chronically questioning me about getting "enough" protein). People even take perfectly good vegetable dishes and add meat. My mother-in-law puts bacon in her green beans!

I was watching a show on the food network today where the "Hearty Boys" were making an all veg dinner. They kept commenting how omnivores wouldn't even miss the meat and attempting to convince the imaginary meat-eater that it would still be satisfying. Are people so brainwashed to think that food=meat that they can't even fathom a meal without it?

[Alusdra]

Well, see- that's the attitude I'm talking about Susan. I admit, I'm for animal welfare rather than rights. So yes, I guess I want happy meat. Once I'm more settled in life I intend to have land where I can raise my own animals for eggs, milk and meat. 1) So I know they were properly cared for 2) because fresh milk is hella tasty 3) So I appreciate the work going into it and thus eat less 4) I like farm animals (in a more pet sense) among other reasons.

I realize that it breaks down to a moral divide here where I don't think that animals should have the 'right' to live and reproduce as they see fit. But then again, I don't necessarily think humans should have that right, either. But no, I don't really see anything wrong with using animals, as long as it is done humanely, with care towards them, and done as little as possible. Maybe in the future we will all be vegetarians. I'm not all that opposed to the idea. I just really like the occasional steak, deer jerky, fried egg or yogurt (or whatever- like cheese!). So far veggie alternatives- while tasty- are just that: alternatives. I consider them as completely separate meal options, or dishes that used to have meat that are just fine without it. And since I don't feel the same moral sentiment of an AR person, I don't see why I shouldn't eat it, so long as I work to give the animals that I very gratefully and appreciatively use the respect they deserve. I have met vegetarians that are of this opinion rather than AR. Even vegans, too. They don't consume animal products because of the cruelty more than from the rights perspective.

I do consider myself an ally to AR people- I appreciate the view even though I don't share it, and I feel many of our goals are the same. The fact that I get verbally assaulted most times I talk with them notwithstanding...

[thalestral]

[FONT=Arial]Earthlings[/FONT]

narrated by Joaquin Phoenix, original score by Moby.

[CF#5]

Originally Posted by Alusdra

"Animals scream just like you!" I mean, come on.

From an AR perspective, this serves as a reminder that we are no different than animals in the sense that we are all sentient beings and are all capable of experiencing fear and pain. It has to be over the top to compensate for the huge divide that exists because the vast majority of people have incorrectly concluded that humans have some sort of special social and moral status over animals.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

Well, see- that's the attitude I'm talking about Susan. I admit, I'm for animal welfare rather than rights. So yes, I guess I want happy meat. Once I'm more settled in life I intend to have land where I can raise my own animals for eggs, milk and meat. 1) So I know they were properly cared for 2) because fresh milk is hella tasty 3) So I appreciate the work going into it and thus eat less 4) I like farm animals (in a more pet sense) among other reasons.

Since you hope to have farm animal "pets" that you are going to kill for meat, what does this picture mean to you? Would you eat a guinea pig on a trip to South America? Would you eat a guinea pig in the United States?



You have to understand that speciesism isn't only discrimination that favors humans over animals. Discrimination by humans amongst different species of animals (such as keeping a guinea pig as a pet while roasting a turkey in the oven less than 20 feet away from the guinea pig) is also speciesism, and it's every bit as wrong as the kind that compares animals to humans.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

I asked for something not meat and he just looked at me in confusion and asked 'what would we eat then?'...
......................................
So far veggie alternatives- while tasty- are just that: alternatives.

Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I hope you see the irony here.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

I don't really see anything wrong with using animals, as long as it is done humanely, with care towards them, and done as little as possible.

It doesn't have to be done at all. That means NEVER. So based on the rest of your post, this one statement is pretty much an outright lie.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

And since I don't feel the same moral sentiment of an AR person, I don't see why I shouldn't eat it, so long as I work to give the animals that I very gratefully and appreciatively use the respect they deserve.

Is it wrong for me to admit I'm laughing at this? How do you define respect? Conditional respect based on a skewed view of reality that is influenced by speciesism is not respect at all. It's the polar opposite.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

They don't consume animal products because of the cruelty more than from the rights perspective.

People come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. I'm sure there are plenty of people who behave in a wide variety of unconventional ways for a wide variety of reasons. The thing is though, that because they're all human, they're allowed to be different, or at least we've decided that they should be allowed to be different, even if only in theory. It's a tragic shame that the sentiment that led to this declaration of equality isn't extended to all forms of life.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

I do consider myself an ally to AR people-

Be honest - after reading this post - and I have not tried to "assault" you in any way - not verbally or by any other means - do you still consider this to be true? I don't think there's a single AR person who is truly knowledgeable of all the issues who would consider you an ally. Susan is correct that the most ardent AR supporters consider AW to be very dangerous.

[CF#5]

Originally Posted by Alusdra

I asked for something not meat and he just looked at me in confusion and asked 'what would we eat then?'...

Originally Posted by PiggieMamaKelly

Are people so brainwashed to think that food=meat that they can't even fathom a meal without it?

Originally Posted by Alusdra

So as a group, we probably are 50-80% vegetarian. Extrapolate to the world and that's pretty cool.

Probably that's a goal that will be attacked by hard-line AR people, but that's sort of my point, I guess. If it's going towards a goal of less animals eaten and those that are are better treated- why attack your allies, eh? Attack us after most people are 80% vegetarian. You know, sneaky sneaky!

It's precisely because of the attitudes of most people that food equals meat that I actually agree with you that if we could cut meat consumption by 50-80% in the world, it would be a tremendous leap forward and very progressive (it's the rest of your post I have a problem with). It would be by no means complete, however, and I would still have huge reservations about people whose change is motivated for the wrong reasons.

Humans are strange creatures and have habits that are hard to break. It's simply not realistic to think it could be possible to get all humans to willingly give up meat voluntarily right away, and therefore, as much as I dislike the idea, change has to be gradual. That's not to say AW efforts to promote "happy" meat aren't wrong, because I think they are. I'm simply looking at this strictly from an AR perspective, and I think there's a long road ahead and a lot of work to do in converting people to first adopt AR beliefs and then adjust their behavior accordingly. AW is dangerous because it allows people to compromise on an issue of inalienable rights, which represents a complete alienation of those rights.

[CF#5]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

I didn't agree when I first read this, but after reading that post, I must say, I'm coming around to that belief.

"It is the fate of every truth to be an object of ridicule when it is first acclaimed. It was once considered foolish to suppose that black men were really human beings and ought to be treated as such. What was once foolish has now become a recognized truth. Today it is considered as exaggeration to proclaim constant respect for every form of life as being the serious demand of a rational ethic." -- Dr Albert Schweitzer

The defiant behavior I was referring to is a form of ridicule and only serves to nourish the bruised egos of the perpetrators.

[CF#5]

Originally Posted by thalestral

[FONT=Arial]Earthlings[/FONT]

narrated by Joaquin Phoenix, original score by Moby.

What a crime that this movie was released in 2005 and has received such little coverage that I hadn't even heard of it. EVERY HUMAN BEING ALIVE ON THIS PLANET SHOULD WATCH THIS MOVIE.

[Alusdra]

I don't really see how I'm being hypocritical, per se. For me, personally my morals are such that I don't find eating animals as being all that objectionable. Being on this site has made me realize that how much I did wasn't healthy, however- and I've cut back. Plus seeing how some animals are treated on larger farms. I consider meat as another ingredient- like peppers or tofu or cheese. Cheese doesn't taste like tofu, tofu doesn't taste like peppers, etc. So on the one hand- irreplaceable, but on the other, not necessary in every meal.

And yes, I have seen that video. I like it much better than the "30 reasons" one as it has concrete evidence and clips to back up what it is saying. I take it with a grain of salt as it is exaggerated and sensationalist, but that video is a large part in why I've cut back. The other being a study on Chinese people and how the increased % of protein is giving them all sorts of health problems.

I'm just trying to say that by not being willing to accept baby steps, you're shutting a lot of people out. Think about the positive training that this site endorses. Is it 'do the trick NOW or no reward?' No- every progression towards the desired behavior is rewarded, at least for a while. So, for me I guess when I say- I agree with you and I'm trying to help, and then I get pictures of cute animals shoved in my face and told I'm a hypocrite it's like- hell, they don't even care, why am I bothering? Yes, I know I shouldn't care what other people think as it's about the animals. But who are YOU helping by attacking people on the fence? You'll just push them away. Maybe instead say- 'good that you're thinking about it, why don't you try this other thing next'. Sensationalism makes you think- the first maybe 5 times you hear it.

[CF#5]

I never accused you of being hypocritical. Your behavior is not inconsistent with your expressed beliefs. Therefore, you're not a hypocrite. But everyone should keep in mind there are worse things to be in this world than hypocritical. Tofu and seitan don't have much taste on their own. A really good vegan chef can add flavors and manipulate them to taste like almost anything. Last week, I had seitan scallopini at a strict vegan restaurant, and it was one of the best meals I've ever had. I was talking to a guy at work last week whose sister is vegan and whose wife is "vegetarian when convenient" and he told me he doesn't understand why vegans enjoy "fake" meat. He says if you're going to not eat animals, you shouldn't eat vegetables that taste like animals either. The proper response to this was captured by Jo Stepaniak:

Grassroots Veganism with Jo Stepaniak

We live in a meat-centered culture and are surrounded by meat-eaters daily, despite our displeasure about it. Nearly all vegans grew up eating meat or living among meat-eaters, so meat in all its forms is customary and familiar. Animal flesh is a central feature of most holiday and social gatherings, and, healthful or not, many of us learned to fashion our meals around animal products. It is reasonable that people accustomed to this way of eating would want a painless replacement for meat when they become vegan. Having a cruelty-free alternative to meat can make vegan meal planning a snap, and it also can help ease the transition to an animal-free diet.
.........................................
An interesting detail about meat is that it hardly ever is relished plain. Meat-eaters generally douse it with tenderizers, gravies, sauces, herbs, spices, breading, and a variety of condiments. At the very least, it almost always is served with salt and pepper. Meat without these seasonings and treatments usually is bland and relatively unpalatable. When people say they crave meat, what they really long for are the flavor enhancements, the chewy texture, or a sense of fullness and satisfaction. All of these are replicated easily with pure plant foods in the form of mock meats.

To say it a different way, a little more aggressively and abrasively, I'll quote something that resonated with me tremendously. I read it on the Earthlings message board after watching the movie last night.

isawearthlings.com • View topic - So Ashamed!

I'd like to add that I think one of the worst emotional fallouts from watching this film is realizing not only how cruel and indifferent to the suffering of animals some fellow "humans" can be, but possibly as worse, knowing now how these so-called humans have, for so long, TRICKED you and LIED to you by deliberately hiding from you all the behind-the-scenes animal suffering and horrific exploitation that's going on that, THEY know if you had known about it previously, you would have consciously stopped supporting and enabling it long ago.

Getting back to your post, how do you know Earthlings is exaggerated? And who says I'm not willing to accept baby steps? One thing I realized when reading the Earthlings message board is that there's a huge difference between animal welfare and incrementally-instituted animal rights. In a realistic sense, the process has to be gradual and done in baby steps. That doesn't mean AW policies aren't detrimental to the cause.

I wasn't "shoving pictures of cute animals in your face" and I wasn't attacking you. I'm still not attacking you. However, I also don't see you as "on the fence." I had a very solid reason for posting that picture. You chose to ignore the accompanying questions I asked. That's your choice, because you're under no obligation to answer. But silence is often deafening, and your lack of response is certainly no exception.

[Alusdra]

Ok- you're right. You didn't say hypocrite- that was my extrapolation from the "apple doesn't fall far from the tree" comment.

Since you bring up those questions again RE: speciesism. Yes, I would eat a guinea pig (but probably it's illegal). I might not eat my pet guinea pig because we would have had a long life together with lots of time put in for trick training, bonding, etc. Any animal I knew I was going to eat I would care for just as well, but more emotionally distantly. I have yet to actually raise a