Seafood

[cinnyminny]

I tried looking for a thread centered on the discussion of eating seafood but no other types of meat. I may have not looked long or hard enough but I did not find one that was answering my questions.

The idea of becoming a vegetarian has interested me for awhile now (off and on). However, seafood is one of my absolute favorite types of food to eat. And when people talk about the ethics of how animals such as chickens, cows, and pigs are raised for the food industry, where does seafood fit into this? I may be somewhat naive, but I watch the food network almost obsessively and when they talk about seafood they always talk about getting it from local markets that catch the fish/crab/lobster/scallops themselves. Now I know an animal is an animal either way. But if these animals are being caught in the wild (not pumped up with hormones and antibiotics) and are not being treated inhumanely, do you still disagree with consuming them?


I know its either completely a veggie/vegan or not. I'm just curious about your thoughts on seafood.

Also as a side note, I'm attending college right now. I live in the dorms and you HAVE to have a meal plan when living in the dorms. So I'm forced to eat cruddy cafeteria food 14 meals a week. Needless to say, there are not many choices because we have a pizza line, grill line, fry-pan line, homecooked food line, sub sandwich station, and then a salad bar. They sometimes have vegetarian options but you can bet that they aren't very appealing. That is my only dilemma in becoming a vegetarian.

[Rattie Mom]

When I decided to stop eating cute furry animals a little over 3 years ago, I knew I would have a very hard time being vegetarian. I make a crappy one, because I don't much care for very popular veggies like Tomatoes, onions, or mushrooms.

I decided to still eat fish and shellfish (and dairy). My husband calls me a "Veg-Aquarian" I do feel bad eating the little fishies...but I also feel I wouldn't get enough of what I need otherwise.

When people ask if I'm vegetarian, I just say "well, I still eat fish". I don't think the label really matters. There are so many different ones when you are talking "vegetarian" lanquage.

The first 6 months were very hard for me. I tried and failed once....when it got to BBQ season. But this last time, I stuck it out...and found that once I got past the 6 month mark, it because second nature.

You might want to do a search on Pescatarian (sp) and see if you find what you are looking for. I've met lots of folks who are still eating fish, but consider themselves a vegetarian to some degree.

You may have to take baby steps at first. I honestly hadn't realized how many foods are not vegetarian, even if they don't have meat in them. Jello, fruit pies, marshmellows, and many soups (made with beef stock).

Again, I don't claim to be a vegetarian. But I understand exactly how you feel. Good for you, considering this choice.

[cinnyminny]

Originally Posted by Rattie Mom

My husband calls me a "Veg-Aquarian"

omg, that's so cute! I completely understand that people who become vegetarian's do it for moral and ethical reasons along with the health aspects. I just figure that most seafood isn't "tortured" before becoming a yummy meal. But wow I didn't even realize that the soup my cafeteria is serving most likely is made with chicken or beef stock. Thats the hardest part for me...who knows what my school's cafeteria puts into their food. And even though I do care to change, I honestly don't have the time to ask them the ingredients at every meal. Once I move into an apartment next semester it will be easier to manage but right now I have no choice because I live in the dorms and they make us have meal plans!

[gpigluver14]

Just clarifying.... You are not a vegetarian if you eat fish. You are a pescatarian.

I enjoyed seafood prior to going vegetarian as well. But I told myself, fish are technically animals, and going vegetarian, I wanted to cut out all animals from my diet.

Many vegetarians don't eat fish because they are sometimes polluted with lead and mercury- and obviously pose a major health risk.

Also there is a lot of cruelty involved with the seafood industry. See this website: CONSENSUS Portal - How are farmed fish killed?

Lobster for example, or usually boiled alive. And this is about farmed fish:

Farmed fish are killed in a number of different ways depending on the species of fish, the size of the farm, the size of the fish and the customs or traditions of the country in which they are farmed. At present, common methods include a blow to the head (percussion); sedation in carbon dioxide-enriched water followed by bleeding (CO2 stunning); anaesthesia using food grade Eugenol followed by bleeding; plunging the fish into ice and water (cold shock); and lack of oxygen either in air or in ice and water (asphyxiation). Some of these systems are humane while others are clearly not.
There is still debate in scientific circles about the extent to which fish are able to suffer and to feel pain, however the trend is to assume that fish should be given the same consideration as other farmed animals. Pressure from large food retailers, demanding higher standards of fish welfare, planned changes in national and European legislation regarding fish farming, and the development of new technology is resulting in changes in the ways farmed fish are killed. Some of the historic killing methods such as CO2 stunning and asphyxiation are being phased out, while newer methods including electric stunning and automated percussion methods are being introduced.
The principles of humane killing of fish are the same as those for other farmed animals. These are that the animals should be spared all avoidable stress and suffering before killing, that the fish should become in-sensible (unconscious) either very suddenly or gently without pain or suffering, and that it should then remain insensible until it is dead.
Assessment of how acceptable a killing method is must take into account not only what is meant to happen but also what is likely to happen or can happen when the system goes wrong. For example, in Scotland, salmon are individually stunned by a single blow on the head and then bled by cutting the gill arches. When the blow is powerful enough and correctly aimed this almost certainly fulfils the requirements of humane slaughter. Traditionally this blow was given manually, however this was stressful and tiring work and so there was much doubt about whether it is possible for the workers to maintain the required power and accuracy of the blows throughout a working shift. During recent years therefore the Scottish salmon industry has moved over to the use of a mechanically assisted system. The percussion blow is now given by a pneumatically powered club which both ensures that the position of the blow and the power of the blow is correct. This system was given an animal welfare award in 2002 by the UKs Royal Society for the prevention of cruelty to Animals (RSPCA). Further developments in this technology are being made by the Australian manufacturers to suit it to a wider range of fish species.
Another example of recent change in the aquaculture industry can be seen in the methods used to kill trout in Great Britain. Traditionally, portion-sized trout were placed in tanks of ice and water and killed by asphyxiation. The average size of these fish is less than 400 g so the low individual commercial value of these animals to the farmer and the very large numbers of fish involved meant that individual percussion was not commercially viable. Concern about the welfare of these fish however prompted the development of new systems which enable portion size trout to be killed using a humane electric stunning system. This stuns the fish instantaneously without removing them from the water and ensures that they do not regain consciousness. Portion sized trout can thus now be humanely killed without significant extra cost, although electrical stunning can sometimes cause carcass quality problems in the final product. This approach to electric stunning is now being further developed for other species of fish such as Tilapia, Sea Bass, Sea Bream, Cod, Salmon, Turbot and Halibut.

Just remember, regardless of if you continue to eat fish or not, just cutting a little meat out of your diet makes a difference!

[newpiggiemommy]

Originally Posted by Rattie Mom

My husband calls me a "Veg-Aquarian"

That is so funny! When I told my 10 yr old son we were going to try out a vegitarian diet and cut meat from our diet for the next 40 days (Lent), he said, "what about fish?". I told him he could have fish once a week if he agreed to try out the new diet without a fight.

I guess that would make him a "Veg-Aquarian" at least temporarily

[chexxy]

Originally Posted by cinnyminny

I know its either completely a veggie/vegan or not. I'm just curious about your thoughts on seafood.

Even a little helps. If you feel that it wouldnt be possble to be a full veggie until out of college, even just cutting down on meat helps animals! You could ease in slowly and then you could be ready by the time your out.

[cinnyminny]

This might be a bad attitude to have, but I've always felt if you can't do something to the fullest, then its not worth doing at all. I guess I'm sort of a pessimist in that aspect. I felt that organized religion was so pathetic and that many people around me molded it to their personal needs that it became pointless to me. But I understand that even eating less meat in general means less animals being killed. Too bad my cafeteria makes the amount of food no matter how much I'm going to eat.

Nevertheless, I'm going to do my best!

[PiggieMamaKelly]

I think if you view getting rid of fish as something that is too hard to think about right now, just go ahead and cut out all other meats and keep eating fish. Then as time passes you may decide to cut that out as well. And even if you don't- you are still making a difference!

And as a side note- you don't have to make a big deal about labels and what to call yourself, just tell people "I don't eat land animals".

[bamby71994]

You still eat meat the def anything that is alive that you eat. Fish have blood so you still eat meat

[SerpentineSylph]

Originally Posted by cinnyminny

Too bad my cafeteria makes the amount of food no matter how much I'm going to eat.

Well... if less and less people eat the food they prepare, the company would see that and cut back on how much they make eventually. For the here and now, it's just better for your health and the animals, too! And it's always nice to have guilt-free consumption.

I'm a pescetarian, as is my fiance (we just went about a week ago! Yay us!). I've been a pescetarian/vegetarian/vegan, off and on, for seven years (I'd go a year, have a moment of weakness and then eat meat for three months) - but now that I have someone fighting with me, I think it'll be easier. We rarely eat seafood - some tuna here and there, I eat occasional shrimp and steamed blue crabs (most of our local places humanely kill them). And I don't like cooked fish, I prefer it raw. I tend to eat better when veg*n, anyway. I guess I worry more about a balanced meal and read the ingredients, so it significantly improves my health.

As you said, just try your best. I know you have the "all or nothing" mentality, but even though you may not be able to save 100 lives, isn't it nice to know you helped saved 50? Or even 5?

[i-love-nev]

Originally Posted by cinnyminny

However, seafood is one of my absolute favorite types of food to eat.

I'm in the same boat there

I havn't been able to cut SeaFood completely out of my diet. Not yet anyway. My family disagree with me being vegatarian. D'oh! Wrong word. My family completely, totally, 100% (OK, OK
you get the picture) disagree with me cutting land animals out my diet. Regardless of whether I was a veg. or a meat eater I would cut pig, cow, sheep ect. out of my diet, plainly because I dont like them meats. Nor most poultry but I have been bought up eating a lot of chicken so I guess thats just me now. Unfortuneatly. Lol.

[cinnyminny]

Originally Posted by bamby71994

You still eat meat the def anything that is alive that you eat. Fish have blood so you still eat meat

I don't mean to be rude, but how is me eating a fish any different than a bear eating a fish? or a tiger chasing and eating an anetlope? I know those are major extremes...but I'm really addicted to animal planet and they always show the animals hunting and I think how is that really any different? Like I said I dont see how seafood is really being treated inhumanely so I figured that part of my diet should stay. I could be wrong though.


I accidentally ordered my mashed potatoes "loaded" tonight...and so they came with chunks of bacon. Much much harder than I thought!!

[cinnyminny]

serpentinesylph - I LOVE sushi/sashimi! Traditional Japanese is one of my favorite cuisines and there is a lot of seafood in Japenese cuisine. I worry about balanced meals too because any personal trainer or nutritionist would probably frown upon cutting out all the protein available from eating meat. I know there are protein alternatives but I definitely dont have the money (being a poor college student that I am) to pay for groceries since I have a meal plan. But I'm still going to cut down on meat consumption cause like you all have said, some is better than none

[SerpentineSylph]

Originally Posted by cinnyminny

serpentinesylph - I LOVE sushi/sashimi! Traditional Japanese is one of my favorite cuisines and there is a lot of seafood in Japenese cuisine. I worry about balanced meals too because any personal trainer or nutritionist would probably frown upon cutting out all the protein available from eating meat. I know there are protein alternatives but I definitely dont have the money (being a poor college student that I am) to pay for groceries since I have a meal plan. But I'm still going to cut down on meat consumption cause like you all have said, some is better than none

I'm a huge fan, too! I'm a big fan of Japanese culture in general (Japanese major here!), and I love the cuisine. But you're definitely right, there is a lot of seafood there. There are lots of meat alternatives from brands like Bocca and Morningstar, just to list two more common types, but you can also get protein from other places like in nuts and beans (including soy), tofu (Japanese cuisine right there!), and certain veggies. And don't forget dairy and eggs! Getting protein is not as hard as a lot of people think. Good luck, cinnyminny. You're on the right path!

[i-love-nev]

Originally Posted by cinnyminny

I don't mean to be rude, but how is me eating a fish any different than a bear eating a fish? or a tiger chasing and eating an anetlope? !

I don't mean to be rude here, but the thing is about the bear eating fish and the tiger eating the antelope is the fact that they need meat for they're diet and its just natural for them.

[cinnyminny]

Originally Posted by i-love-nev

I don't mean to be rude here, but the thing is about the bear eating fish and the tiger eating the antelope is the fact that they need meat for they're diet and its just natural for them.

I was more referring to their method of killing the animal. I know human ethics are different from nature because nature is supposed to be "innocent" but the animals definitely don't worry about if their prey is going to be killed in a humane manner. I guess it's all about survival of the fittest and the food chain...but I do see your side that we as humans have other ways of providing our bodies with protein and other nutrients. I kind of like to argue haha just cause I like to hear all sides/opinions to certain situations.

[thalestral]

You might find these interesting:
Fish
FishingHurts.com

Fish feel pain and suffering but are simply less able to express it in a way humans can see. Because of their glassy eyes and unchanging expression it is easier to imagine that they feel no pain compared to the screaming pig or the broken hen. Their method of death is perhaps one of the worst and the devastating environmental impact of both sea fishing and fish farming is yet another reason to consider giving up sea food.

Ask yourself what is more important - the taste of a food you don't need for yourself, or the lives of others for themselves.

[cinnyminny]

Originally Posted by thalestral

You might find these interesting:
Fish
FishingHurts.com

Fish feel pain and suffering but are simply less able to express it in a way humans can see. Because of their glassy eyes and unchanging expression it is easier to imagine that they feel no pain compared to the screaming pig or the broken hen. Their method of death is perhaps one of the worst and the devastating environmental impact of both sea fishing and fish farming is yet another reason to consider giving up sea food.

Ask yourself what is more important - the taste of a food you don't need for yourself, or the lives of others for themselves.

This was my question exactly...I wanted to know (but didn't think to research myself) if the seafood industry is just as corrupt as the meat industry. And judging by these articles and website, they are! So what about shrimp and oysters and scallops and sea animals of the such? Do they feel pain too?

[thalestral]

Scientists have proved that shellfish (life classified as shellfish includes: oysters, mussels and whelks (molluscs), octopus, squid and cuttlefish (cephalopods), crustaceans such as crabs, lobsters and prawns (nephrops) and starfish, urchins and sea cucumbers) most likely all feel pain. A lot of research is still being done in this area as after all, it was only recently that scientists realised that bony and cartilaginous fish feel pain. So unfortunately a lot of information in books and even online to do with fish and other sea life is a bit out of date.

Shellfish will retreat from things that cause them damage, and some scientists argue that this is not the same as being able to feel pain. There is no doubt though that creatures such as lobsters do possess the parts of the brain that feel pain, all the neurotransmitters and so on. Being boiled alive, and even transported is very traumatic and painful. For me, I would rather err on the side of caution for their smaller cousins.

What decided it for me when I was first contemplating becoming vegetarian was the sheer number of lives on my plate. A dish of prawns or shrimp or any other small shellfish, is a dish of ten, twenty, maybe thirty lives - all for one meal! It's a huge amount of death just for taste buds.

Here are a few other sites that go into lobster and other shellfish cruelties. It's something of particular interest to me as they, along with fish, are often overlooked, and I firmly believe that it is almost all down to the fact that they do not express themselves in a way we can understand or interpret - they cannot scream.

http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/endoft....htm#shellfish
FishingHurts.com >> The Captivating Lives of Crabs >> Crabs Feel Pain
David Foster Wallace Considers the Lobster > Being Bolied Hurts
Animal Aid: CLOSE UP - On Lobsters
Animal Aid: THE SILENT SUFFERING OF LOBSTERS

[pink piggy lips]

Originally Posted by thalestral

What decided it for me when I was first contemplating becoming vegetarian was the sheer number of lives on my plate. A dish of prawns or shrimp or any other small shellfish, is a dish of ten, twenty, maybe thirty lives - all for one meal! It's a huge amount of death just for taste buds.

Thank you, that was an excellent point made. After a long break (for a myriad of reasons), I'm finally going vegetarian again. I had been asking myself what I wanted to do about fish and shrimp. Fish I could do without, but shrimp would be the hardest for me since it is my favorite of any kind of meat. It's also associated with many wonderful memories.

I've found as far as convenience goes, yes cutting land animals out of my diet can be a challenge sometimes. As far as personal taste goes, shrimp is my 'crack' and would be the most difficult to give up. But I know that motivation and perseverance are the keys.