Practical Alternatives to Factory Farming

[Stephanae]

Hello everyone. I am going to try and preface this post very carefully so please bear with me. I am not a vegetarian, and I have a dissenting viewpoint from most of you in this forum about eating meat. All eating is a spiritual ritual for me--nature's sacrifice of life (plant or animal) for life. I explain some of this in my response to another thread on this forum here: http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...er-option.html. And it was my post on that thread that has led to the thoughts I'm posting here, so if you want to read it, it will give you a little background into my stance on eating meat.

I need to let you know two things up front:

1. I despise factory farming in the U.S. (I don't know very much about it in other countries), and I am most definitely against animal torture (and any other torture, for that matter).

2. I am not trying to troll. I am going to post some "what if" situations that may seem inflammatory, but I am sincerely interested in knowing whether anyone out there has any ideas for truly practical solutions.

So here goes.

Scenario 1: What if the majority of the population continues eating meat in our urbanized society? Traditional rural farming models are more than fulltime jobs for many people (frequently unrewarding ones) and don't create enough surplus to support a large meat-eating population of non-farmers. In this scenario, to continue supporting an urbanized, electronic culture of meat eaters, is there any practical way to abolish factory farming?

Some of my partially formed conclusions and ideas in this scenario: Demand for meat is high, so it's going to continue to be a profitable industry. The only way I can see to supply the demand is to have factory farms. The best solution I've been able to brainstorm in this scenario is to lobby for better regulation of cruelty in factory farms and hope that enough consumers are humane enough to support legislation that makes their meat, milk, and eggs much more expensive. So I'd truly like to know: if you take it as a given that the majority of the population will remain meat eaters, does anyone have ideas for other practical solutions?

Scenario 2: The premise for this scenario is that everyone becomes a vegan. Personally, I find this scenario a bit fantastical, but if it's an ideal you uphold, I'm sincerely interested in knowing what your practical solutions would be to the problems it would create. What would we do with all the cows, sheep, pigs, goats, and chickens? These animals have been domesticated and bred for meat for centuries. Obviously, releasing them into the wild wouldn't be an option for them any more than it is for our cats, dogs, or guinea pigs. Even if it were, habitat shrinkage hasn't made life kind for many wild animal species. Most people don't have the room or the inclination to keep a pet cow. What do we do with these animals?

My ideas and conclusions in this scenario: I have none. The only solution I could see here would be to euthanize about 80% of these animal populations and hope the other 20% found homes as pets.

Again, please, I'm not trying to troll. If you have practical ideas for solutions to these scenarios, I really am asking to hear about them. I want to know your opinions.

[Biscuit]

Scenario 2 is not a practical scenario, therefore there is no practical answer to the problems it raises. It won't happen.

[newpiggiemommy]

I am not a vegitarian, I do eat meat. But I do not think that the "factory farming" is the way to go. The more animals we kill for food, the more meat people will eat. Not to mention the surplus of meat that gets wasted everyday do to expiration. Waste, waste, waste!

If we farmed like they did years ago there would be less meat to eat/waste, but we could get by. There would be less animals on the farms, so the daily cruelties would not be happening. We would not have to pump hormones into the animals and chemicals in their food to keep up with the demands of food because people would just except that there is not enough meat to stuff their faces with on a daily basis. They would learn how to nurish their bodies with out the protien of meat.

This is just my uninformed opinion, but in the perfect world we could go back to family farming to feed people, and away from factory farming to make money and cause the numerous health issues people are facing today, such as obesity and the pre maturing of our young children!

[steve_and_pigs]

I'd start out by saying that this thread may be better placed in the "Kitchen". I don't think having a discussion about solutions to improve the state of commercial animal farming is appropriate for the "vegetarian" section.

First I'd like to plug "buying better meat products". If you are going to consume meat, demonstrate to the market that there is a demand for better products by buying them:

Improving Farm Animal Welfare - World Society for the Protection of Animals

It sounds like you are really asking, "what is the viable vegetarian/vegan" solution for the US economy. It is an interesting question. I think you are basing the question on the premise that vegans/vegetarians want everyone to be a vegan/vegetarian, and that is the solution.

I'm not a vegan/vegetarian myself, so I can't speak first hand. I know some veg*ans, and as far as I can tell, there are two basic camps for those that are veg*ans based on animal welfare reasons:

1. Any use of animals as food (any animal slaughter) is inhumane. I will not participate in it. I would like to see it outlawed.

2. I refuse to participate in the meat market because of the current state of animal farming. I will not support this market with my dollars. I would like to see the farming industry change.

These camps are not black and white. There are folks that sit somewhere in the middle, and what is "humane" or "inhumane" varies.

I can see the (2) camp being very successful over time. We are already staring to see the market respond to them in various ways.

I'd like to hear more from the (1) group as to what there vision for the future is for the US economy. My guess is that they would like to see the percentage of Americans that are veg*ans grow. This would mean less overall consumption of meat, shrinking the size of the US meat market.

[Stephanae]

Originally Posted by Biscuit

Scenario 2 is not a practical scenario, therefore there is no practical answer to the problems it raises. It won't happen.

I understand this. This question is philosophical. I'm trying to understand more about the vegan ideology. So let me try to clarify my question a little bit: In a vegan's perfect world, does everyone stop eating meat or using any animal byproducts? If you are a vegan and this really is your perfect world and it actually happened, do you have any ideas about what we would do with the animals? Again, I really do want to know and understand.

[Tophica]

I am not a vegan but I am a vegetarian and I would say that if everyone stopped eating meat, milk and eggs and so on it wouldn't happen in a fortnight. People would start to choose not to eat animals so the meat/animal products industry would slowly die down to just a few factorys where the last of the animals would eiter be killed or rescued. The once animal product factories would now be using their money to grow fruit & veg, grains and so on. In reality, if everyone did just stop eating meat, I honestly don't know what we would do with all the animals but everyone just suddenly stopping eating meat is just unrealistic.

[Stephanae]

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

I'd start out by saying that this thread may be better placed in the "Kitchen". I don't think having a discussion about solutions to improve the state of commercial animal farming is appropriate for the "vegetarian" section.

Thank you for your thoughtful response to my post and for the fantastic link! I'm sorry if I posted this in the wrong section, but I was aware that some people are vegetarians because of commercial animal farming (your 2 camp) and I was specifically looking for feedback/advice/ideas from people who fall into both of your camps. In fact, I'd say my first scenario was aimed specifically at people in your number 2 camp and my second scenario at people in your number 1 camp. (And I realize people all have differing opinions in any camp--I'm looking for differing opinions.) But, again, if it's inappropriate here, I apologize and hope that a moderator will move it.

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

It sounds like you are really asking, "what is the viable vegetarian/vegan" solution for the US economy. It is an interesting question. I think you are basing the question on the premise that vegans/vegetarians want everyone to be a vegan/vegetarian, and that is the solution.

You are partially correct. My first scenario is largely based on economic factors, particularly supply and demand. I'm not claiming any kind of expertise whatsoever, but in my thinking, I don't see a way for a return to purely family farming to ever meet the demand. Which means many people wouldn't support it. So I was curious about what we could do to find a happy medium between mass production of animal products and cruelty. I thought that vegetarians who chose not to eat meat because of industrial farming might have some opinions about that, but the end goal of my question wouldn't be to stabilize the U.S. economy, it would be to deal with the economic issue of supply and demand in a humane way.

My second scenario, as I tried to clarify for biscuit, was more philosophical. However, I'm not assuming all vegetarians and vegans want everyone to also be one--I'm asking if there are vegetarians and vegans who do want this. And if there are, if they have a plan for dealing with the animals if they ever achieved it. I'm not criticizing this ideal at all. I only want to know if in a perfect world for such people, they have planned for a perfect world for domestic livestock, and if they have, what their plan is, because I'm truly honestly just curious and want to learn.

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

I can see the (2) camp being very successful over time. We are already staring to see the market respond to them in various ways.

Yes, I see this as an all-around positive thing. I can't see it hurting if meat becomes more of a luxury item. The factory farming industry could shrink and be governed by MUCH stricter human legislation, and the increased price of the meat could make up for the lower profit in quantity. It would also be good for humans to eat meat much more rarely. Even the pre-prepared food industry would find clever ways to market more vegetarian pre-prepared goodies. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see a way to end factory farming, but I see ways to improve it, and that it makes sense to me even for veg*ans in your 2 camp to support movements for more humane factory farms. I imagine many do, but I think (and just think, mind you) that just as many focus on abolishing the industry altogether. In my opinion, that's a wasted effort for practical reasons (versus ethical ones), so I would love to hear from veg*ans who do have this focus (if I'm right about them existing at all) why they believe it is NOT a wasted effort and how they believe the abolishment of factory farms could work in a practical way.

Granted, a return to family farming would work much like better humane regulations on factory farms (i.e., we would still have meat, but it would be more expensive), but the difference in the supply and cost would be so extreme that I just don't see it as viable or practical to work toward that end.

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

I'd like to hear more from the (1) group as to what there vision for the future is for the US economy. My guess is that they would like to see the percentage of Americans that are veg*ans grow. This would mean less overall consumption of meat, shrinking the size of the US meat market.

I'm not as much interested in this question on the basis of economy. It is an interesting question, but I think industries would grow up around vegetarian eating to replace the meat animal industries where we spend so much money now. I am most purely interested in opinions on the other side of the coin in animal welfare. What do we do with these species we created? Even if, as Tophica posted and I agree is likely, the change was gradual and the populations were reduced over time, what is the desirable end result? Yes, it will never happen, but if you're a vegan in the number 1 camp and it's what you WANT to happen, what do you want to happen to the livestock. Do you want wild cows? Endangered cows? Extinct cows? I especially want to know if there's a solution I'm not seeing or comprehending.

[thalestral]

The animals are bred for meat, if the demand falls so does the breeding. The animals no longer exist.

I would advise you asking for books to read or links to read as this is a vegetarian support forum and much of what you are asking has been covered quite extensively in other threads

http://www.vegansociety.com
Vegan Outreach -- Ending Cruelty to Animals
Viva! - Vegetarians International Voice for Animals

[Stephanae]

Originally Posted by thalestral

The animals are bred for meat, if the demand falls so does the breeding. The animals no longer exist.

I would advise you asking for books to read or links to read as this is a vegetarian support forum and much of what you are asking has been covered quite extensively in other threads

http://www.vegansociety.com
Vegan Outreach -- Ending Cruelty to Animals
Viva! - Vegetarians International Voice for Animals

Thank you for the links, Thalestral. Unfortunately, I have read similar materials in many places (I have been reading and thinking already, I promise), but I haven't been able to find the answers to questions like I'm posing anywhere. A statement like "the animals no longer exist" is as close as I may get, and I thank you for that much.

I wish you'd also share with me why you feel the extinction of these animals is a good goal. I'm not currently coming from any position on that. I'm not entirely sure that their extinction is not a good goal. However, it seems a little bit inconsistent with the talk of horror over their grotesquely shortened life spans in factories. After all, they live longer in factories than they would if they were extinct. That's not a judgement, either. I think things that seem inconsistent with each other all the time. Also, thinking their extinction is better than their horrible torment doesn't seem inconsistent to me at all.

Of course, you are not obligated to share anything with me. And I understand your not wanting to talk about it.

I also know I'm talking in extremes. The "what if" of everyone becoming a vegan is a pure hypothetical, and I do support vegans and vegetarians in that I think what you're willing to do to decrease demand is laudable. I think any effort to end the abomination of factory farming is laudable. So in practical terms, being a vegan or vegetarian makes wonderful sense, I think. I just wanted to know what your ultimate vision of the perfect world would be for livestock animals.

I haven't found that anywhere else and so I asked here, hoping some of you would be willing to share your ideas with me. I WILL try browsing some of the older threads to see if I can find something, and I will stop asking here (although I'm not saying I will stop appreciating responses or asking follow-up questions to those responses).

I apologize if my questions made anyone uncomfortable. I do understand that those of you who have chosen a veg*an lifestyle often have to field questions similar to mine from people who are actually judging you and think you are weird. I am judging you, too. I think you are admirable (even if I haven't entirely chosen the same path) and would like to hear and understand more about your (probably very disparate and not canned or commonly available) ideals and visions (not your easily understandable responses to the state of animals as it exists--that I get and some of it, I share). But it's also okay with me that you don't want to talk about it.

[PhoenixFeather]

Originally Posted by Stephanae

Scenario 1: What if the majority of the population continues eating meat in our urbanized society? Traditional rural farming models are more than fulltime jobs for many people (frequently unrewarding ones) and don't create enough surplus to support a large meat-eating population of non-farmers. In this scenario, to continue supporting an urbanized, electronic culture of meat eaters, is there any practical way to abolish factory farming?

No. People have to be willing to change what and how much they eat in order to enable the abolishment of factory farming. People need to be willing to eat less meat, and to demand that what meat they do eat be raised humanely (and preferably, locally). In order to get rid of factory farms, people have to get over their selfish desire for cheap, plentiful meat, and start refusing to buy the factory farmed stuff.

Scenario 2: The premise for this scenario is that everyone becomes a vegan. Personally, I find this scenario a bit fantastical, but if it's an ideal you uphold, I'm sincerely interested in knowing what your practical solutions would be to the problems it would create. What would we do with all the cows, sheep, pigs, goats, and chickens? These animals have been domesticated and bred for meat for centuries. Obviously, releasing them into the wild wouldn't be an option for them any more than it is for our cats, dogs, or guinea pigs. Even if it were, habitat shrinkage hasn't made life kind for many wild animal species. Most people don't have the room or the inclination to keep a pet cow. What do we do with these animals?

As others have said, everyone will not become vegan overnight. If, through gradual shifts, everyone eventually stopped eating meat and other animal products, breeding to meet meat demands would be reduced. It is possible that cows and chickens would become extinct under this scenario, but I think it more likely that protected areas would be created for them to live, similar to the National Bison Range in Montana. I also think that people might continue to keep animals for milk and eggs on a small scale rather than everyone going fully vegan, and I think that doing these things on a small scale can probably be done humanely (especially eggs).

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by Stephanae

I wish you'd also share with me why you feel the extinction of these animals is a good goal. I'm not currently coming from any position on that. I'm not entirely sure that their extinction is not a good goal. However, it seems a little bit inconsistent with the talk of horror over their grotesquely shortened life spans in factories. After all, they live longer in factories than they would if they were extinct. That's not a judgement, either. I think things that seem inconsistent with each other all the time. Also, thinking their extinction is better than their horrible torment doesn't seem inconsistent to me at all.

Certainly people are vegan for different reasons, some because of the welfare of livestock animals, some for believing killing life is wrong, and others for health, environmental and other reasons.

Myself, I am pro-animal rights - I do not believe we have the right to take life when we do not need to. Livestock animals are created by us, by humans, and because of what we want them to be they are a far cry from the animals that started out. Dairy cows have swollen udders and sore joints, chickens cannot walk because of their bulk and so on. The very birth of these animals condemns them to a life of discomfort and death.

An animal not yet born experiences none of this, and these are not natural animals in the wild but human creations. Can an unnatural animal truly go "extinct"? Or does it merely cease to be when humans choose not to bring it into such a "life".

Furthermore, I am very anti-breeding (as is this site) as I do not believe humans have the right to force animals to pro-create. So just as I believe in neutering all pets which would eventually lead them to not exist, I believe the same for livestock animals. I do not believe humans have the right to use animals for anything, for the simple reason that we do not need to, nor to meddle with nature and create our own breeds of animals, for the simple reason that we do not need to

The Facts part of the www.vegansociety.com website has quite a lot in it I think, and I'd also recommend Introduction to Animal Rights: Your Child or the Dog? by Gary L. Francione who also has a website about the abolition approach: Animal Rights: The Abolitionist Approach - And Abolition Means Veganism!

I hope that helps a bit :] You could also browse threads on VeggieBoards - Vegetarian and vegan forum, message board, recipes. as generally I found reading discussions to be most beneficial when learning about this.

[alerz]

I understand this. This question is philosophical. I'm trying to understand more about the vegan ideology. So let me try to clarify my question a little bit: In a vegan's perfect world, does everyone stop eating meat or using any animal byproducts? If you are a vegan and this really is your perfect world and it actually happened, do you have any ideas about what we would do with the animals? Again, I really do want to know and understand.

I wish you'd also share with me why you feel the extinction of these animals is a good goal.

I cannot speak as a vegan, but as a vegetarian. As a few have already stated, it is unrealistic to think that everyone would stop eating/using animal products overnight. If it ever happens in the future (which I honestly doubt unless it literally becomes impossible to support factory farming due to limited resources/environmental factors), it would certainly be something VERY gradual. As decrease in demand occurred, increases in prices would occur, as predicted by basic economics. As demand decreased, less animals would be bred for meat purposes. At the point in time in which there were no meat eaters left (which would definitely not be some strict hour/minute/second time point), any animals left on farms would probably have their fates decided by the government. However, there are already rescues in the country which take in farm animals (e.g., http://www.farmsanctuary.org/), so I think a lot of the animals would be rescued. I don't think this type of organization would breed farm animals to propagate them, so yes, eventually they would become extinct, which I think is a much better status for them compared to the current status. I don't think you can really consider their "lives" worth much. Farm animals are usually born indoors, taken away from their mothers soon after, and spend the next WEEKS eating in small confinements until they are deemed large enough for slaughter ("worst case scenario" [not really, if you add in abuse, hormones, disease, etc.]). They would never "know" that their species were becoming extinct so it wouldn't be something that negatively affected them. The few animals left after everyone became vegetarian/vegan would lead comfortable, "happy," natural lives. As others have stated, these species were at one point in time, long, long ago, found naturally on earth, but what they are now is by no means natural! I don't know whether they would be able to survive on their own in nature, and introducing them into the wild may actually negatively alter the natural ecosystems of the world. To say the least, I honestly cannot see the entire world WILLINGLY ending meat-eating anytime soon, if ever.

[Stephanae]

First of all, I'd like to thank PhoenixFeather, Thalestral, and Alerz for your responses.

Originally Posted by alerz

As a few have already stated, it is unrealistic to think that everyone would stop eating/using animal products overnight. . . . To say the least, I honestly cannot see the entire world WILLINGLY ending meat-eating anytime soon, if ever.

It's true that several people have stated my second scenario is unrealistic. I need to point out that the first person to state that it was unrealistic was me--in my original post and possibly every post on this thread since. The word I first used was fantastical, but I think it's a near enough synonym, don't you?

I don't know who is familiar with Meyers-Briggs, but I think I may be really feeling the disadvantages of being a weird INTP type personality right now. Anyway, I will try, one more time to state my question as clearly and baldly as possible. I am interested in what you think could happen to livestock animals in this scenario, but that is not my question.

My question is: What would you want to happen?

It's the want part of it that I am most interested in hearing about. I'm asking you about your ideals, not your ideas.

Thalestral is the only one who has been willing to tell me anything about what she (sorry if you're a he) actually wants. I don't think I can agree that I would want neutering to continue to the point that domestic animals no longer exist at all, but I admire her for believing in something so strongly that she's willing to accept such a radical conclusion. And I can see her points and understand why she believes what she believes.

[HowietheGreat]

If anyone has not heard of the wonderful vet Michael W Fox, please check him out. He has fabulous, well thought out views on deep vegatarians and shallow vegatarians. He discusses many of these issues from a global stand point-from his own travels. For many cultural and monetary reasons, it would be very hard if not impossible to make the world a "vegatarian planet," especially in impoverished areas. Look at Hati. The soil is so poor there they can virtually grow no plants. I have close people to me who do missionary work there, and have heard first hand accounts. I have been a vegatarian for 13 years and am very againist factory farming and I beleive this needs to stop. That being said, while I could NEVER raise livestock and slaughter them for food, it seems to me that if people insist on eating meat, then it would be better if they humanely raised it. There is a very interesting show on cable about a family "going green" and it is a vegan who has helped them begin their own farm. Her philosophy was the same. If you must eat it, then a good quality of life should be provided before they are eaten.

[HowietheGreat]

As far as everyone being vegan, once more, look up Micahel W Fox. I think he may answer what you are seeking.

[Susan9608]

I don't really understand the difference between what you're asking and the answers people are giving you ....

If everyone in the world suddenly quit eating meat all at once, some of the badly abused, ill, and in terrible condition would need to be humanely euthanized. That's the only thing that could ethically and practically be done for them.

As for the others, well, many people would have to make many sacrifices to see that those millions of animals were transferred into the care of sanctuaries and refuges. In those areas, animals originally intended for consumption could live out their lives with dignity and respect, and away from human interference as much as possible.

I believe this is what PETA does with the factory farm animals they rescue.

If people were to suddenly stop eating meat, there would be no reason to keep breeding those animals. I suppose there would be the odd person out there who might want to keep a chicken or a pig or a cow or goat as a pet, but generally, those animals are not the greatest house pets and most individuals do not have the means necessary to sustain them in the right kind of environment. I think, gradually, as people got farther away from eating meat, less and less of these "food" animals would be bred ... and at some point, they would become either entirely domesticated and kept as exotic pets or they would die out.

I don't think that's a tragedy. To me, the loss of a species is a tragedy when that species is lost because it's habitat has been totally destroyed by human beings and there's no way for that species to exist normally in the wild. That's a tragedy. I also think it's a tragedy when a species has been hunted to the point of extinction ... hunted for further or feathers or ivory or something else that human beings just *have* to have. When an animal dies out because of human interference, I think that's a tragedy.

But when human interference keeps a species from dying out simply to have around to use and abuse - like in the case of farm animals - and breeds more and more and more and more of them - I don't think it would be a bad thing if those animals were gone. Certainly it would be better for them to have "gone on" in the continuum of existence then to continue a worldly existence at the mercies of the cruelest species to ever roam the earth.

I think it would be sad to lose out on having pets and companion animals and such ... but I think it would be far better for the animals to not be subjected to the cruel nature of some human beings.

From an economic stand-point - I think that the meat industry will change slowly and that meat substitutes will replace animal flesh in the market place. Generally when one industry shuts down or becomes obselete, there's another one waiting to take it's place; the economic shake up, I imagine, will be minimal ... and honestly, would not be my greatest concern, especially not in one of the richest countries on the planet.

[Stephanae]

Thank you, Susan. Despite saying you don't understand the difference between what I'm asking and the answers I'm getting, you came close to answering my questions. Let me try a different tack.

First, you said:

Originally Posted by Susan9608

. . . they would die out. . . . I don't think that's a tragedy.

This is similar to what Thalestral said, and Alerz and PhoenixFeather were kind of going in the same direction. What I infer from this is that you have thought your beliefs through to an eventual conclusion and you find that conclusion acceptable. That's part of what I want to know. But what I still want to know is whether that's just an acceptable outcome or is it the desired outcome.

And although I appreciate all the links and outside information (thank you, Howie, I'm looking forward to reading about Michael W. Fox), I assume that many of you probably don't have the same desired outcome, which is why I'm asking you. I'm interested in what you, as vegetarians, vegans, individuals, and people I actually "talk" to and would like to know better feel about this.

So let me try a poll. Please imagine the world as you would truly want it to be (your ideal world) when you answer the questions, with no consideration of whether it's actually possible or realistic.

For vegans:
1. Will everyone be a vegan?

If your answer is no, I'd love to know why, but the rest of this poll is not specifically for you (which doesn't mean you can't give your opinion on question 2). If your answer is yes, please answer question 2.

2. What do you want to happen to livestock animals?

Please don't tell me what you think might or could happen, remember this is the world as you truly want it to be, but please do tell me why you want what you want. These are some of the possible answers I see, but of course many possibilities exist so please feel free to suggest alternatives:

• All livestock animals cease to exist.
• Some livestock animals cease to exist (such as cows and sheep) and all their populations are greatly reduced, but others are kept in rural areas as beloved pets (such as pigs and chickens) and bred very very sparingly so that only as many of these animals exist as can be loved by responsible pet owners. If you choose this answer, please specify which animals and explain why.
• All livestock animals are kept as pets under the same conditions above, except possibly those whose very existence is painful, such as chickens bred to be broilers.
• Same as above, without the exception.
• All livestock animals live on reserves.

For vegetarians (note that this poll is exactly the same as the vegan poll, except that the possibilities for what you might want are slightly different):

1. Will everyone be a vegetarian?

If your answer is no, I'd love to know why, but the rest of this poll is not specifically for you (which doesn't mean you can't give your opinion on question 2). If your answer is yes, please answer question 2.

2. What do you want to happen to livestock animals?

Please don't tell me what you think might or could happen, remember this is the world as you truly want it to be, but please do tell me why you want what you want. These are some of the possible answers I see, but of course many possibilities exist so please feel free to suggest alternatives:

• Dairy cows and laying flocks are kept in nice rural places, treated humanely, used to get milk and eggs (other animal products?), but never slaughtered or used for meat. Livestock animals used almost solely for meat (like pigs) cease to exist.
• Other options in combinations of pets vs. existing vs. reserves similar to those listed above for vegans.

If you take the time to answer this, thank you, thank you, thank you in advance! Also, I know I've simplified the many types of veg*ans into only two categories. Please feel free to tell me about details specific to the type of veg*an you are.

[thalestral]

In my ideal world, 1 - everyone would be vegan, and 2 - all animals would be at peace from humans. This means that we would not use animals for our own purposes and therefore no, livestock animals would not exist - certainly not as livestock. I imagine there are some animals that could adapt to going wild again if that is what nature intended.

[Susan9608]

Will everyone be vegan?

I think at some point, yes. Everyone will be vegan, either because of their own conscience or because of societal pressures ... or because the agricultural industry simply won't be able to financially support raising animals for food anymore.

As for what i would like to have happen to those animals ...

I would like for those that have are in bad shape to be humanely euthanized. I would like for those who are still sound to live out their lives with some dignity and respect in a refuge or sanctuary. I would like for there to be no more purposeful breeding of "farm" animals. And after that, I'd like for "farm animals" to be allowed to die out.

I think that there is no other way for things to happen so that people won't be tempted again - at some indeterminable point in the future - to start with animal farming again and repeat the cycle of using animals for food and abusing them. For their own protection, I think one of the only solutions is to allow them to peacefully fade away.

[steve_and_pigs]

Farm animals fade away. That's really an amazing vision. It's probably like 1000 years before it's time, but an interesting ideal. Think of what the global population would have to be like to attain it.

1. Hunger and poverty would have to be eliminated. Any population in need of food is going to eat whatever they can. If there are no domestic animals, they are going to find animals to domesticate. (Example, the guinea pig) You don't have the luxury of considering the ethics when you are hungry, and you are watching your children starve.

2. Support for the elimination of animal farming would need to spread through hundreds (maybe thousands) of very different cultures. Today there are plenty of cultures where veganism is most likely the last thing on anybody's mind. Most people on the planet are just thinking about surviving. Cultures that rely on meat for daily survival would need to be relocated, changed drastically (most likely forcibly), or just exterminated if you take wacko nazi approach. This is not necessarily needed. In time, perhaps all peoples will ditch meat on their own accord. You're just need to be willing to wait 10 or 100 times longer.

Granted, in the industrialized world, veganism going mainstream is more possible. For starters, a reduction our culture's unchecked demand for meat would be refreshing. In the US, the culture in many places has completely lost touch with were food comes from. Food comes from the supermarket, right? I'll needlessly point out that eating a lot of meat is not the best choice for you health if you have other options.

It is interesting. If our agriculture industry wasn't so despicable in the first place, we probably wouldn't even have many vegans or vegetarians. Extreme actions usually result in an extreme reactions. At least they are trying to do something about it.

Don't get me wrong. I admire vegans and vegetarians. They are doing our culture a great service by pointing out that here is another way to live. Sometimes the ideals just seems a bit bonk when you try and think them through. Of course, the world used to be flat, and the sun used to orbit the earth. Veganism may be a luxury that we all enjoy one day do to a vastly improved global society.

I use the word luxury in a relative sense. To some degree, not eating the person next to you is a luxury.