Vision: Lab Meat For All Carnivores

[sasnpipp]

A rabbit forum member just posted a sad note about 'feeders' advertised on Craig's List. I'm on a rabbit forum, so I'm obviously a fan and vehemently opposed to this.

My knee-jerk (and usual response) is to make the market uncomfortable for these sellers and snake owners, but when I think with my mind over my emotions, I'll just encourage them to only sell frozen and try and police that the 'methods' used are humane.

Why? Because in theory, I don't like the idea of playing favourites. I try not to think any less of a chicken than a baby seal. So even though I'm a vegetarian and don't like to see any animal killed, I can't say that rabbits should live and snakes should starve.

(Then again I'm vehemently opposed to killing chickens, turkey and even fish, but I feed them to my cats).

Anyway, my personal hope -- which may not go over with a segment of the forum, either -- is that 'cloned' meat will become the preferred method of feeding carnivores. Scientists are currently growing slabs of meat in labs without brains or form (and thus without feelings).

I'm sure many people would be grossed out at the thought of eating meat grown in a lab, thus the human consumption market is years off (although I believe it will eventually solve a big part of the problem), but what about the pet food industry?

I'd love to see some lobbying done to make sure that scientists, developers and eventually entrepreneurs look at this market first. Especially snake and raptor food. Maybe they can donate their 'experiments' to wildlife rehab centres? Snake and raptor sanctuaries?

Thoughts?

sas

[Alusdra]

Well... I'd be dubious. Cats need taurine (and that's why they are obligate carnivores) so unless the meat is in an appropriate nutrient bath or whatever, it might not have proper nutrition. As for raptors especially (and maybe snakes, I'm not sure) they need the hair to clean the crop and I think maybe the bones, too. The snake may or may not accept eating something without those 'signals' that it's food and I don't know if they need those parts, too.

There was some discussion about this before and some people were saying that it would be immoral to use the lab meat as it came from (at some point) a live animal that had to be sacrificed and thus is the same as eating meat from a killed animal. I don't agree, but that argument was made.

But definitely anything larger than an infant mouse should be pre-killed or risk injury to the reptile/ bird.

[sasnpipp]

Great points, Alusdra. I'll revise my 'vision' to focus more on fully formed mamals developed (cloned) with no brains. I think it will boil down to largely those in favor of stem cell research being the supporters.

As for the cats, the food would be processed and the appropriate nutrients added, I'm sure, just like the current industry. A small percentage of a 'slab' of lab meat will probably make it into a can or patty of cat food.

Thanks for the response.

sas

[crazywiggy]

I actually think lab grown meat would be a great idea.... assuming it was actual meat cultured without having to kill animals. Even if it doesn't ever completely replace animals I think it would be good for processed foods (like sausages etc) and the pet food market. I would eat it.

[QuackXP]

I normally stay away from this part of the board but the science involved got me interested.

Not being vegetarian I'm not as educated as the rest of you on the topic but I see this as being a divided issue among vegetarians.

People who are vegetarians because of the issue of cruelness to animals will like the fact that meat can be grown and no living animal will suffer.

People who are vegetarians because they believe it is the healthiest way of living will not be convinced that meat weather grown in a lab or on a farm is healthy either way.

The whole free range crowd I doubt will think lab meat is any more natural than animals that are cloned or are enhanced with drugs.

Either way cloned slabs of meat are pretty far off as you can’t currently put cloned livestock into the food system. There was a story in this month’s issued of WIRED about the whole cloned meat issue.

Cloned Beef (and Pork and Milk): It's What's for Dinner

[Susan9608]

The whole idea sounds pretty nasty, to me.

I don't see how cloned animals are any different than normal animals. How can they eliminate their ability to experience fear and suffering?

Even if they have no brains, but are still the whole animal (versus just slabs of muscle tissue unconnected to any sort of body) that still seems wrong to me. there are plenty of human beings who have no brains (beyond very basic brain stem function) and thus have no ability to experience pain, fear, or anything else, but no one would consider eating them or experiementing on them. I don't think it should be any different with non human animals.

If we're talking about just creating slabs of artificial muscle tissue that's unconnected to any type of body, then I again have to say I find that pretty gross. One of the healthiest ways to eat is to eat whole, unprocessed foods. This just smacks of being totally artifical from the conception to the completed product. Not something I'd want to put into my body. I don't know that I'd want to feed it to my pets, either.

Regarding not wanting to play favorites, that is, wanting the rabbit to live and the snake to starve ... I think the issue then becomes whether or not animals like snakes should be kept as pets. There's already a thread "In the News" section of the forum on that topic.

I also don't see the connection to stem cell research. Personally, while I find this idea pretty abhorrent (at least, to my degree of understanding on the issue), I'm very much in favor of stem cell research.

[John4216]

Rather than "cloned" meat, which still kills and injures animals you should be looking at meat that is totally grown in a lab without an animal. This will happen due to research in trying to "grow" new organs for people from their own cells so there is no rejection issues and such.

I am all for it if it is done as described above because it then has an impact on many other things. No more animals grown and killed for food which means the crops can than be used for other things which means starvation rates can drop. No more environmental destruction just to raise animals for food. The list goes on and on.

[Susan9608]

If still seems really nasty and artifical to me. Ugh.

[ArtisticRainey]

While I think it's an interesting idea and could have a lot of benefits, I think a lot of people wouldn't go for it -- at least at first. People would want to eat 'real' meat. If the amount of 'real' meat farms declines, it could lead to worse conditions as those still farming this way try to pack even more animals into their premises per square metre to feed the demand.

If governments stepped in and banned farm-grown meat, it would exacerbate the problem further -- a black market in meat would form.

Would people perhaps begin to breed smaller animals for their meet, animals easier to conceal?

[Maisiepaisie]

Originally Posted by ArtisticRainey

If governments stepped in and banned farm-grown meat, it would exacerbate the problem further -- a black market in meat would form.

Maybe, but factory farms in the UK are about as cruel as it gets so it wouldn't be a worse situation than we have now. The police would just have to deal with it the same way they deal with production of illegal drugs.

I don't think the black market would be that big though as production of animal products is not cost effective anyway. For many years now, the government have been subsidising the meat and dairy industry. Without these subsidies animal products would be too expensive for the average person. I would like to see these subsidies taken away and instead put on healthy, organic vegan foods and vegetables. No government would be brave enough to do it though and face the wrath of a meat and dairy obsessed nation.

[sasnpipp]

Originally Posted by QuackXP

Either way cloned slabs of meat are pretty far off as you can’t currently put cloned livestock into the food system. There was a story in this month’s issued of WIRED about the whole cloned meat issue.

Cloned Beef (and Pork and Milk): It's What's for Dinner

Very interesting article, thanks for the link. I didn't realize cloning had gone this far and that it had been in the food chain at all.

Originally Posted by John4216

Rather than "cloned" meat, which still kills and injures animals you should be looking at meat that is totally grown in a lab without an animal. This will happen due to research in trying to "grow" new organs for people from their own cells so there is no rejection issues and such.

I am all for it if it is done as described above because it then has an impact on many other things. No more animals grown and killed for food which means the crops can than be used for other things which means starvation rates can drop. No more environmental destruction just to raise animals for food. The list goes on and on.

John, I agree wholeheartedly with everything!

Originally Posted by ArtisticRainey

If governments stepped in and banned farm-grown meat, it would exacerbate the problem further -- a black market in meat would form.

Would people perhaps begin to breed smaller animals for their meet, animals easier to conceal?

If banning live meat production ever happened (unlikely, IMO), I think you're right that it would be dangerous for small animals, rabbits and cavys especially.

Originally Posted by Maisiepaisie

Maybe, but factory farms in the UK are about as cruel as it gets so it wouldn't be a worse situation than we have now. ... I would like to see these subsidies taken away and instead put on healthy, organic vegan foods and vegetables.

Agreed re: the cruelty. And that is an awesome idea re: the subsidies. That's something worth lobbying for.

sas

[thalestral]

I think if any kind of lab grown meat is not fit for human consumption it should not be put into the pet food market. I despise the idea that we bring such pets into our family only to feed them substandard diets.

The whole idea of lab grown meat sounds terribly unnatural, unhealthy and just downright icky. Not something I would be willing to put in my body, especially when it is something I don't even need.

[PiggieMamaKelly]

I can hardly picture myself being able to choke down a piece of "lab grown" meat. It sounds pretty repulsive to me.

But what a great idea for the pet food industry! Assuming the meat is safe and all that, it would be a great solution for those who feel discomfort in feeding factory farmed animal food to their obligate carnivores.

[John4216]

I find it amusing that people are repulsed at "lab grown" meat. I mean that is in a humor way not a mean way. It is still real meat "grown" from real cells.

And seeing as how much of the things we eat or put into our bodies from food to implants are artificial or lab manipulated I find even that would become normal after awhile.

Of course they would have to advertise it differently for people - something like cruelty free meat. As long as it tastes the same it would not bother me at all, especially if it replaced traditional ways of getting meat.

[Susan9608]

And seeing as how much of the things we eat or put into our bodies from food to implants are artificial or lab manipulated I find even that would become normal after awhile.

I think this is a trend we need to get away from ... of course, not being in a position to need implants (though does anyone ever really *need* implants?) maybe I'm not the best judge...

I really think it would be better for everyone's health if we got away from eating so much processed and chemicalized foods. I know that personally, eating more than a serving or 2 of anything with aspartame in it makes my joints hurt bad. I can't drink diet soda at all without a severe increase in my arthritis pain. And sucrolose gives me headaches and insomnia. I know it gives many people bad cases of intestinal volcano (which is very interesting, since it's one of the ingredients in pedialyte, but whatever.)

I really try to eat mostly whole foods that haven't been processed. It's more work and less convenient, but I think it's better for everyone concerned. It seems more natural, too.

Perhaps lab grown meat will become the norm some day, but it seems so horribly artificial that I can't fathom ever being willing to try it.

[John4216]

By implants I meant things like pacemakers, atificial joints, hearing devices and things along those lines. Science really is making strides though they seem slow to many. But if you just look at the past 100 hundred years, Wow!!. What was once science fiction and impossible is now everyday life. Blindness runs in my fathers side of the family and I have been following a development where they have an implant that is allowing the blind, certain types, to "see". Almost like the visor on star trek but a lot more low tech. Right now it is black and white and a low pixel count but they are improving it more and more all the time with color and increased pixels coming soon.

As for me, heck I eat plants that are "grown" might as well eat meat the same way, and if you think about it, the non-meat meat that is sold is grown and made in a factory already.