A question

[Piglet]

If animals were killed in a humaine and near to painless way, would you eat them?

No, I would never eat any thing with a face no matter how painlessly it was killed.

[Josephine]

I can't no matter how they were killed. I haven't liked the taste of meat for years and knew the health benefits of not eating meat. I didn't go veggie for ethical reasons, that was a nifty bonus.

[mncavylover]

I think I have explained this in another thread, but I honestly don't know. And until we get there, I don't have to worry about that. Something tells me we're a looong way off.

[chrishall1979]

The only reason I stopped eating meat was because the conditions there are kept in is horrible, and the way they are killed is brital and inhumane. So I think if they used a captive bolt to kill them, and it was humane. Then yes, I would probably go back to eating meat. But until that day.......no meat for me.

[Treen]

As chrishall1979 said, it's also about the living conditions as how they're killed - that's proabably more important to me.

If they lived happy lives with great care and lots of space and were killed humanely, then I'd still have a problem in that to feel okay about eating meat, I feel like I'd need to be able to kill an animal myself. If I'm disgusted at the idea of that, or just not prepared to slaughter an animal, then I don't feel like I should eat them. I have to be happy with the entire process, not just pay someone to get me what I want without having to consider the consequences.

Obviously not being a vegan, I'm not completely in line with that as it's all part of the same industry. But I could definitely milk a cow or pick eggs from under a chicken!

[CavySpirit]

If they lived happy lives with great care and lots of space and were killed humanely, then I'd still have a problem in that to feel okay about eating meat, I feel like I'd need to be able to kill an animal myself. If I'm disgusted at the idea of that, or just not prepared to slaughter an animal, then I don't feel like I should eat them. I have to be happy with the entire process, not just pay someone to get me what I want without having to consider the consequences.

Obviously not being a vegan, I'm not completely in line with that as it's all part of the same industry. But I could definitely milk a cow or pick eggs from under a chicken!

Treen, we think alike! That is exactly how I feel about it. I grew up on a 40 acre family farm. We had chickens, cows (for milk and meat), pigs, horses, gardens, ducks, cats, dogs, hay fields, etc. My Dad considered himself a gentleman farmer in addition to his regular job. The men in my family hunt (hated it, still do) during deer season. This was in Upstate NY. I've long since moved away.

We milked the cows, gathered eggs from the chickens. Harvested the garden, etc. Then my parents (Dad) would load up a couple of pigs or a cow on a truck and take them to the local slaughter house, for the pig to be I think shot in the head with a bolt of electricity and then the throat slit. I'm not sure if the pig was hung from it's hind legs before or after it was supposedly killed. I never actually saw the whole thing, although I sat in the car and waited one time and saw part of it. I hated it. Hated the thought of it. Dad must have killed the chickens himself, but I never saw it.

How well were the animals treated? Who knows. Better than a factory farm, that's for damn sure. As well as they could be? Probably not. Better than the vast majority of even family farms? Probably.

Even though the cows had a 'relatively' good life--barn, pasture, creek, food, etc.--they would still escape every once in a while and we'd have to chasing down a stray cow all over the place.

[Treen]

That experience must give you an interesting take on it all.

To me, if you're going to eat meat, you need to be comfortable with the whole process from birth to dinner plate. Not that you should want to do/ see it all every time you eat meat - I like bananas but don't want to shin up a banana tree every time I fancy one.

But most people only want to see meat once it's in a nice packet and had all the signs that it was a living creature removed. A lot of them really would be upset and care if they saw how the animals lived, and saw them slaughtered and butchered, but they make the decision to not think about it. And it's usually that brand of people who bang on most about how it's natural to eat meat - yet they're the ones who are in complete denial about what they're paying for people to do to animals in their name. That's not the force of nature!

That sort of behaviour is kind of like employing slave labour but getting someone else to order the workers around and give them their measly pay packets. That way you can get pretend it's not your responsibility and all is well simply because you're getting what you want and not having to face the consequences of your choices.

My husband has been a vegetarian for the last few years, but for completely different reasons than me. He's more concerned about all the hormones and antibiotics used rearing animals, and how tampering with their growth etc will affect us long term (don't think BSE helped either!). But he's quite happy with the idea of eating meat given the animal has led a good life, and would be quite prepared to shoot an animal and slaughter an animal if he wanted to eat meat. I think that's how it should be.

[roosterboy]

Piglet, hopefully they are killed that way now, if possible.

I don't eat much meat as it is, but I do eat a minimal amount because I think we're supposed to. But even if I was 100% sure about the painlessness, I don't think I would eat any more than I do now. It's like water and electricity, I use just the amount that I need to, no more than that. And there are still animals I would never eat, no matter what.

Hopefully in a free range type of farm or ranch, the setting is less cruel than nature itself. More babies will mature, and their life will be relatively stress free and peaceful. Though ultimately all animals will be eaten, the herd will enjoy comfort and safety and continuity, resulting in a happier and longer life than in the wild.

[Treen]

Originally Posted by roosterboy

Piglet, hopefully they are killed that way now, if possible.

Definitely not the case - slaughterhouses are based on how they can kill a large number of animals in the quickest way possible. They haven't time to make sure that an electric shock to stun each one has worked so they're not alive when their throats are cut (and often animals are strung up by their feet first so that the blood can flow out tidily in to trays underneath, and again this leaves plenty of opportunity for distress open). If one cut isn't done properly, they don't always notice or have time to do it again, so many do die a lot slower, more painfully and in much more distress than the 'ideal' slaughter they set out, which many think isn't even that humane.

And besides that, the whole business of travelling to the slaughterhouse is very stressful for them (I used to live what must have been on the route to one and see lorries full of squashed and frightened animals on their way) and when they're being moved from the trucks in to the slaughterhouse, it's a case of getting it done quickly, not being kind to them. the animals are usually very distressed by this point, sensing that what's happening isn't good, but the focus is on getting them all in to place quickly.

There are so many ways in which the welfare of the animal is not anywhere near the top - most companies do the bare minimum to escape prosecution for cruelty (and we all know how pitiful minimum standards are) - that's all. Profit margins are way more important.

Sure some places do it all a lot better, but these are the minority - a tiny percentage of the meat market, and most people just aren't prepared to pay more for their meat just because the animal was cared for better and killed more humanely.

Originally Posted by roosterboy

And there are still animals I would never eat, no matter what.

How do you decide which animals deserve to have that kind of life and be killed, and which are too good for that? To me, an animal is an animal - eating a cow is no different to eating a guinea pig, a monkey or a rat and it's wrong to put a value system on which lives are fair game to kill and which you save. Most of it's just social conditioning - what your country/ religion says it's okay to eat. But it's good to think beyond that.

[Piglet]

Treen, I agree. My friend eats meat except lamb. Why? An animal is an animal. Eating a chicken is just as bad as eating a lamb

[chrishall1979]

Yeah what makes it ok to eat this one, and let him suffer. But not this one? Where's the line drawn? Out of all the creatures on earth if I had to eat one. I'd probably eat people if it was legal. They've had million of years to evolve into their current stupidity. Animals have evolved for millions of years and never slaughtered us on a mass scale. Animals are the worlds true innocents. We are corrupted, our children are corrupted, yet animals willingly give us their love regardless of what we've done to them when given the chance.

So really in the end, I don't think mankind is the most evolved species on the planet. We're probably dead last in fact. We re-elected Bushie-poo into office, I bet the dolphins wouldn't have. Definately not Bald Eagles!

So there's my rant
Go eat a plant
Don't consume cows
Not tomorrow and not now
And although I wouldn't chew on my beagle
I'd still eat people if it were legal

Yeah I'm a musician, the urge to rhyme stuff was just too strong tonight!

Chris

[mncavylover]

Awesome rhyme, Chris! It's great at explaining things.

In fact, the entire world wanted Kerry to win. But no, us uninformed, isolated, "special" Americans had to go and re-elect him. I won't get any more into that one for now.

Speciesism Sucks, like PETA says.

[kavykritter]

yeah, really great poem chris, and i think that it just isn't fair, and then people really have ruined the planet sometimes, but you also have to think, sometimes they don't mean to, like i ate meat and i didn't know how it was killed, i didn't try to avoid it, but the industry tries so hard to make sure you don't find out, and i didn't find out for a long time, but i didn't try to avoid it, it just never occured to me, and they made you assume (subconciously) that the animals were well treated and that they lived well. i found out that this was not true and i went vegetarian. and my family is not completely vegetarian yet, but now they buy lcal, well-treated, organic meat, which is better,and they don't eat much meat anymore.

[mncavylover]

Whoa, that's one long sentence there!

I'm glad that you found out, that's great! Pass the word along.

Did you know that about every 20 seconds, someone becomes a vegetarian?

[heabrook]

Frankly, it does not matter how the animal was killed, it still is not right to eat animals. Animals are amazing creatures, they should be our equals. I do not believe that humans were meant to consume animals. Also, we are the only species that consumes another animals milk, have you ever thought about that? What other animal continues to consume milk after it weens? only humans!

[chrishall1979]

I agree that it's not right to eat animals. Albert Einstein said the next great evolution would be all humans going vegetarian. But judging by the last US election the world is not full of Einstein's and some will always eat meat because they just aren't compassionate enough, or smart enough to change. So I'd consider it a huge victory if it was just humane. I could go to sleep at night knowing its humane. And I'd still eat people if it were legal Just to prove a point. haha

Personally I don't care for milk. But I do know that human breast milk tastes much much worse. If cows milk tasted like ours, the cows would find sheep to ween from. Seriously its sickening.

Chris