From vegetarian children to meat-eating adults

[John4216]

Originally Posted by evilnumberlady

Do people growing up on a vegetarian/vegan diet ever have problems transitioning to a diet that includes meat later in life?

My boyfriend and I have been talking about what we would feed our kids if we got married, since I'm a vegetarian and he isn't. Obviously I'm for them not eating meat while he's for them eating it. The main thing we can agree on is that they should be given the choice as soon as they are capable of making it on their own.

I was concerned that giving a child meat while trying to explain why it's wrong would be hypocritical, plus it would ingrain the habit of eating meat, which we both agree isn't a healthy choice (as an adult). He's concerned that if they are raised only on plant foods that as they get older their bodies won't be able to handle meat, effectively not giving them a choice in this matter. Also, he's concerned that a vegetarian diet may not be as suitable for children as it is for adults.

I'm convinced that kids can thrive on a vegetarian diet, and to help alleviate his fear we compromised on going to see a nutritionist for advice when the time comes. However, I haven't been able to find any un-biased research that supports or denies the "they won't even be able to eat meat later" claim. I'm interested in reading anything that talks about the subject from either perspective, as long as it's based of facts.

I applaud your efforts. I agree with you that your kids can thrive on a vegetarian diet, that is very much supported by unbiased research. As for the "they won't be able to eat meat later" thing, well that does not even make common sense and defies logic. I was not able to find anything to verify that statement anywhere but there is basic anatomy to refute it. Just because someone does not ingest meat for years and then does so does not change the way the human digestive process works. Now it may cause them so discomfort because it is a new food, or they eat to much, to much grease etc, but they would still be able to eat and digest it.

Here is one link that explains the digestive process (it is from a site that is for IBS patients) Irritable Bowel Syndrome - Understanding Your Digestion

Hope that helps somewhat, if you need more let me know and I'll search for more information for you.

[Alusdra]

[FONT=Georgia]Ok... wow. I wasn't going to say on this thread as I have nothing to add about the children part... but those linked articles are so full of such astonishing misinformation I can't help myself.

Let me first throw in my two cents about the main topic, though- I don't see anything wrong with having your child grow up vegetarian. You will just have to be very careful with their diet so that they get all the proper calcium, proteins, etc. Adults and children have different needs, so I think it a wonderful idea to have a consultation with a nutritionist. It sounds like to me the best solution would be to feed them very little meat and only if they ask for it as your partner still eats it but you don't. When they are old enough you both can discuss your views with them and they can choose. They might have some problems with meat if they suddenly start eating it, though likely only if they eat greasy disgusting food like how meat is prepared so frequently. I just had to suffer through 3 weeks of practically straight steak (which I love normally, but that is just ridiculous) and that gave me no problems, at least digestively, but if I eat one McD's burger I get problems like I don't want to go into and you don't want to hear, I'm sure.

I dug back through the references (4 of them including the articles themselves...) for the articles and found only one scientific paper. One! And it was about rabbits getting [/FONT] [FONT=Georgia]atherosclerotic disease when fed a lot of fats. That is not at all a surprise to me as a rabbit encountering animal fat would not be able to digest it as they are herbivores. The various references are mostly opinions and quick answers to common questions that somehow ends up warped outrageously in the GoVeg article like an essay version of telephone.

The 'rotting in the stomach' and causing illness claim? I'm simply stunned by that- I have no words. Except maybe what?! That is not how digestion works at all. I think that starts in the article by Dr. Mills when the doctor references bacteria and other toxic products that carnivores (specifically carrion eaters like vultures) have to deal with. How this gets translated to 'flesh killing people' I have no idea. I actually like the first part of the Ask John article as it has a good overview and little bias so far as I can see (the diet he is critiquing sounds very strange, though). The other reference is the one that has an actual primary source reference in it for the rabbits, but the rest of it is a review article and thus mostly opinion. GoVeg.com needs about 100x the primary reference they have before I will believe their bizarre statements. Because that would bring them to 100 sources from their one paltry one hidden in someone's 10 year old opinion. They could also use a basic biology class and maybe one on evolution, because...

The comparisons to the humans and animals is a little wonky, too. Most of the observations are true for herbivores and carnivores (if severely tailored for the point of view) but no one claims that they are a carnivore unless they are trying to irritate a vegetarian. The omnivore part I'm less sure about. For example- I'm pretty sure that bears chew some things, like honey and berries- and they certainly have lips more mobile than a cows'. Since they didn't list which animals were considered for which categories nor did they give definitions for how they determined which was which I find the whole chart suspect. Especially when they mention an herbivore's canines as being 'elongated for defense' which I think is only true of pigs? I would consider a pig an omnivore. I also don't believe that we only have superior muscle tone in our faces/jaws and better range of motion because we are herbivores. We need all that for our social skills and most importantly- for our ability to talk.

I would define an herbivore as something that gets severe problems from and/or is simply incapable of digesting meat (like the rabbits). A carnivore is the opposite: they have hard times digesting plant matter (like your dog throwing up after eating grass, or- did you know that grapes are toxic to them?) although carnivores tend to be able to process vegetables much easier than herbivores can process meat. An omnivore, then, is something that can eat whichever and be perfectly happy. As evidenced by vegans and Atkin's dieters, humans are therefore omnivores. Is it healthier to eat mostly vegetables? Absolutely. But think, too- that as there would be no cows, chickens, horses, cats and dogs without artificial selection (ie-breeding) so too would there not be potatoes, corn, pumpkins, tomatoes, apples, wheat, rice, green beans, peppers and most if not all of the fruits, vegetables, beans and grains that we eat today.
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[PiggieMamaKelly]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I [/FONT][FONT=Arial]think it is unfortunate that so many unfounded non-facts about vegetarianism are thrown around so easily because it takes away from the scientific reasons why vegetarianism is better on the human body. (I’m not really going to dive into that right now because it seems too off topic). When vegetarians spew around things like the ever-famous “Meat stays in your intestines for 30 years”, we seem more and more wacko, when really there are so many GOOD reasons to reduce the amount of meat in our diets. I’m fairly certain that if the body can expel a wad of chewing gum or a penny in 24 hours, a piece of bacon can make it’s way down the pipes too. [/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial]As far as the main topic, I totally agree with John. Your long-term diet wouldn’t change what the digestive system is capable of and it IS capable of digesting meat. I would liken it to not eating sugar for 20 years. You just might feel a bit ill after your first candy bar.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial]And PS- Our superior muscle tone/strength in our jaws is most certainly NOT for talking. Talking requires very little strength and very much coordination and precision. Talking calls for the opening of the jaw for most sounds and there is only ONE facial muscle used for opening, and SEVERAL for closing, which would support the idea that our powerful muscles are indeed there for the purposes of chewing. Of course I’m not sure what that proves since it requires about as much strength to chew a raw carrot as it does a piece of steak. [/FONT]

[kathrynj]

Originally Posted by Alusdra

[FONT=Georgia] But think, too- that as there would be no cows, chickens, horses, cats and dogs without artificial selection (ie-breeding) so too would there not be potatoes, corn, pumpkins, tomatoes, apples, wheat, rice, green beans, peppers and most if not all of the fruits, vegetables, beans and grains that we eat today.[/FONT]

I am terribly blonde, please forgive me, but I really cannot understand what it is you are trying to say here?

[PixieMel]

I have 2 young boys. (2 & 3) I gave up meat this last Jan. right before their birthdays. At first, my husband wasn't too interested in it but he has come a long way since. He loves fake meat and doesn't mind not having it at home. My children do not eat it. I plan to explain to them why I do not eat it and hope they choose to follow the same path but it's not something I'm going to force upon them. I will not buy it for the house but if we go to a family gathering and they want it, I'm not going to tell them no.

The choice to cut out meat is what's right for me. I can't say the same for everyone. I don't preach to anybody about it. I've had to defend myself from time to time when talked down to but for the most part, it doesn't come up.

[Alusdra]

Originally Posted by kathrynj

I am terribly blonde, please forgive me, but I really cannot understand what it is you are trying to say here?

*ehem* Sorry- I was a bit irritated with that article, so I was getting a bit testy. But I was trying to point out that the produce that we now have is the result of the exact same process of human breeding as are all domestic animals. If we were to eat only wild and non-bred plants, I don't know if we would have enough nutrients in our diet. Which I thought would be something to consider when people (especially that heinously biased and inaccurate article) say how evil breeding is in general. (Sorry I missed the reply.)

[evilnumberlady]

Originally Posted by Alusdra

If we were to eat only wild and non-bred plants, I don't know if we would have enough nutrients in our diet.

I think the main difference is that we don't have to worry about breeding of characteristics ruining the plant's quality of life. Many animals that are bred for food suffer terribly because they are bred to bulk up so much so fast they can't live normal lives because of their skeletal structure not being strong enough to support their weight. As one example.

[Maisiepaisie]

Alusdra, I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying that all the fruit veg and grains have been genetically modified, and that we wouldn't have them otherwise? I've heard that wheat was tampered with about a hundred years ago but apart from that GM foods are a relatively new idea as far as I'm aware.

[Alusdra]

No- I'm talking about artificial (versus natural) selection. Another term for it would be selective breeding. Wow... it was actually rather difficult to find a decent reference for this. Huh. Well, here's the wikipedia article, anyway. On the wikipeda page, below the images of the great dane and the chihuahua, you can see a picture depicting wild 'corn' eg. teosinte and how it was selected for by humans to become the tasty corn of today.

Artificial selection gave us most, if not all, of the fruits and veggies in their modern forms. I'm sure you've seen wild strawberries and how different they are from strawberries in the supermarket (though the ones in the past ~10 years or so are way too big in my opinion).

GM or genetically modified foods are different in that there is direct genetic manipulation (inserting or deleting the actual genome). Artificial selection is breeding ie- taking a teosinte with slightly bigger grains and breeding it to another with slightly bigger grains over generations of humans and plants until you get corn. Well, in the case of plants, it's more likely you would just pull out/cull the less fully grained teisinte because sexing plants and then fertilizing them manually is a huge pain.

[chexxy]

Well, I think that first of all, yes, they could later, eat meat but they would have to do it slow. My friend had a friend who was a veggie, but her mom hated it and gave her a hamburger saying it was fake and she got sick. I think you have to slowly build up.

What if you had them eating veggie at home, until they are old enoguh to go to school and be faced with a choice and then let them choose. I think maybe a good ay to tell them would be if they could go to s real farm and see good well, taken care of igs and cows and chickens. I know i went vegggie when i got my piggy.

[wheatgrasscavys]

I'm 13, and the reason I turned into a vegetarian is because I was looking at one of those guinea pig horror sites, where they're raising the guinea pigs and then eating them, ya know? And I was like and then and could'nt stand the thought of my babies being treated like that! So a month or two later I was on someone's band's myspace, and this thing goes on "what you are about to see is beyond your worst nightmare: animals raised on a farm and then slaughtered without painkillers."
Its the guinea pigs all over again, and I felt like this was something caused by me, so, you know, your kid should turn into a vegetarian if he/she really wants to.

[Feylin]

I was raised vegetarian/organic and now (at 26) I eat the occasional meat. To me, most of it just doesn't taste right. I dont know if this has anything to do with being vegetarian or not. I have always despised all forms seafood (just the smell is revolting to me), but occasional chicken is ok with me now. I'm still pretty strict about what I put in my body though- when I'm at the store I hear my Mom's voice talking about ingredients"if you can't pronounce it, you shouldn't be eating it!"