Vegetarian vs vegan

[Alawishes]

I have a question that always bugged me: How can one be vegetarian but not vegan? It's like saying it's wrong to eat animals but ok to kill them to make leather or other animal products. Then there's those veg. that don't eat animals, but will eat cheese, eggs, and drink milk. Aren't these animals cruelly treated? I'm not trying to insult anyone, it's just something that always bugged me and I've never been able to get a good answer. I just wanted your opinions. Again, I'm sorry if I insult anyone by this question.....it's not my intention, I just want to have a friendly disscussion.

[VoodooJoint]

People are vegetarian for different reasons and to different degrees. My husband is a vegetarian now because it finally struck him, after 43 years, that eating animal flesh was rather gross and cruel. He still eats some dairy and eggs though as you don't have to kill an animal to eat these products.

I have another acquaintance who is a vegetarian for health reasons. He does not like animals much and doesn't particularly care if they are killed for food, but he is very interested in staying healthy.

Others go full vegan either because they do not want to cause any animal suffering or death or for health reasons. I also have a friend who is a strict vegan because she has serious allergies to most foods other then veggies, grains and legumes.

I am vegetarian but I do eat eggs and dairy to some degree. I do my best to get my animal products from cruelty free sources. I get my eggs from free range, farm raised, vegetarian fed hens (I used to get my eggs from my next door neighbors pet chickens) and try to get my milk from cows that are not confined or abused. Cheese is a bit more difficult to get cruelty free but I do my best in that area too and do buy veg cheese often.

Everyone who is some degree of veg does their part. Most of us could do better but if everyone in the world cut meat out from one meal a day it would make a huge difference. Only eat a small portion of meat once a day and the impact is massive.

[robinspiggies]

I am a vegetarian because I do think it is cruel to eat amimals. Also for health reasons, I had a tumor in my intestents and the doctor said it could have been from meat. So I don't eat meat anymore! I do still have some dairy, but i try to limit myself. I am not a true vegan.

[JarBax]

It is a good question!

In my opinion, the names are merely labels - as we humans seem to need the security of 'pigeon holing' and categorising!

I see veganism/vegetarianism/lacto/ovo/pescatarianism as differing 'levels' of ones personal desire to lessen animal cruelty in the world. (and there are lots of vegans for whom their veganism is not based soley (if at all) on animal rights issues.) You are right - that not eating meat - but eating cheese/yoghurt/eggs and milk etc. is still contributing to the suffering of animals. Animals may not have died - but they suffer nonetheless - in some cases death would be welcome!

However, by not eating meat alone - a vegetarian is helping in small way to lessen the suffering. Everybody has their own limits - to consider ones self completely 'animal friendly' - one must not only not eat or drink anything animal, (including all sorts of products which may have ingredients that are animal derived - from honey to sweeties and pizzas to white sugar) but not wear anything connected to animals (including leather, wool and fabrics combined with animal products) or USE anything that may at any time have caused suffering to animals, or have been tested on animals - or have had their ingredients at one time in the past tested on animals). This could include make-up, bathing and toiletry luxuries, laundry products and kitchen products. Taking this another step further, the companies who make these products may also make other products which are not in any way tested on animals - but to feel that one is not contributing in anyway to animal suffering, one would make sure that one would not purchase ANY products made by the company who tests somethings on animals - or uses animal products in some of their goods.

Then there is the whole different ball game of 'eating out'! How on earth can one guarantee that the friends one is visiting/the restaurant one is frequenting are using only vegan produce? Are the pans they are cooking out of vegan - or have they been used to prepare animal produce? Are utensils washed in the same dishwasher as ones used in meat preparation? Is the vegan food stored/cooked alongside non-vegan food? Where does it stop?
As you can see, being an ethical consumer is a virtually impossible task. I have been there. I tried! It was not just 'being vegan' - it was a way of life. And I couldn't sustain it.

Everybody has their own personal ideas about this. I don't imagine anyone would feel insulted - though as it is such a personal issue - it is very easy for one to feel defensive. However, I firmly believe that if you try your best, do what you can - then if that small difference makes a small difference in the life of one small animal somewhere along the line - that small difference one made in their choice as a consumer has been worth the effort.

If someone else was to come along and laugh at/ridicule/question that small effort - then I think there would indeed be good reason for one to feel insulted! It happens regularly to those who make the choice to make a difference, this is where you may come accross defensiveness and hurt - where instead it would be better to find delight to have helped!

[PiggieMamaKelly]

No matter what level of meatlessness anyone is at, there is ALWAYS more that could be done. There is never any point where anyone can say they are doing all that is possible, even vegans. It's never ending. As a vegetarian, I know there is more that is possible, but I am doing what I can do right now. I'm 5'9 and weigh 135 pounds, basically a chopstick with a booty. I already have a hard time getting adequate protein with eggs, milk and cheese in my diet. I would whither away if I cut those out because I know I'm not disciplined and strong enough to be a healthy vegan. Someday when I'm more evolved, I'll hopefully be able to take a stab at it. But I think the bottom line is that we all just do what we can do, and what we can do will differ from person to person.

What really bothers me is when vegans ridicule vegetarians, and vegetarians ridicule pescatarians, etc. We're all on the same path, just at different stages.

PS- Jarbax, I really enjoyed your post!

[Alawishes]

Thanks for your replies guys, I too enjoyed jarbax's post, it gave me a lot to think about and gave very good answers. Usually I get, "I've never thought about it before." Again, I'm not judging anyone, I respect everyone's choices no matter what it may be. It is just something I've been curious about. I, in general like discussing things like this, but understand it is a sensitive issue and many people aren't willing to do so, especially in such a nice and mature manner. These types of discussion are valuable to me as I may see other people's perspectives and be more open minded. Thanks again and I welcome anyone elses opinion as well.

[xDanix]

I´m a vegetarian for almost 4 years now. I still eat some animal products like eggs and cheese. As PiggyMamaKelly said, I also think I´m not disciplined enough to be vegan at this moment, but I want to be someday. My husband is vegan, so at home we just make and eat vegan food. At the concerts we organize, we allow people only to sell vegan products.

Specially for starters, is pretty difficult to go vegan from one day to the next. I think everyone knows one´s limits and do its best.
I am a vegetarian, not vegan, but I don´t buy leather products, fur, cosmetics that were tested in animals, etc. So, I´m going through the way to veganism following my rhythm.

Besides, here in Brazil we don´t have all these wonderful vegan products as in US, Canada and Europe. Vegetarianism here is getting stronger, but in small steps.

[Terekins]

I agree that it's a matter of degree not of kind. Really, there are no "true" vegans. If you get right down to it animal products are in so many things you wouldn't expect, some people would argue that by growing vegetables we disturb plants and insects that live in the ground. Personally I just try to do my best.

Part of the reason that I'm not vegan at this time has to do with my boyfriend who eats meat; he is still adjusting to my not eating meat and I have found these issues a strain on our relationship so I'm taking it slow. I don't buy animal products of any kind, but do eat cheese if I'm having diner at a friend's place, or going to a restaurant.

I've heard people say "why bother, you're just one person and you won't make a difference". It's true that individually we can't do everything, but just because you can't do everything doesn't mean you should do nothing.

[caribear]

There are different types of vegans. If I remember correctly, there are 3 main types:
Lacto Ovo vegetarian, Lacto vegetarian, and Vegan.
1. A lacto ovo vegetarian eats mostly plant foods, but also eats eggs and dairy products including yogurt, milk, cheese and ice cream. It is an easy diet to keep up with in the real world of fast food, etc.

2. Lacto vegetarians eat no meat or eggs, but do consume dairy products. Now there are ovo vegetarians, who eat eggs but don’t consume dairy products.

3. Vegans stay away from all animal proteins and animal by-products. This is the most extreme form of vegetarian diet, as vegans get all of their nutrition from grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts and seeds. It is the hardest form to cook & everything. Bread is made with eggs. Even vegetarian burgers are made with egg. Many non-dairy products are thickened with casein which is extracted from milk.

Other non main groups are pesco vegetarians don’t eat poultry, beef or pork but they do eat fish. Pollo vegetarians avoid red meat and fish but eat chicken. There is also macrobiotics, inspired by ancient Chinese principle of yin and yang which is mainly locally produced, seasonal foods. The basic macrobiotic diet has fish – but without the fish and the diet is vegan.

There are even ones with fruit-& vegetarians that won't eat anything take kills anything even plants. If harvesting a veggie/fruit kills the plant, they won't eat it. I don't remember what is is called. There may be more but that's all I remember.

I do think that people need to do whatever is right for them & there families. Vegan or not. It may be cruel & rather gross but it is a way of life to eat other once living animals/plants. Other animals even do it. There are so many different people out there so many types of vegan diets are needed.

[Alawishes]

I knew a vegan once and had vegan "chocolate cheese cake". It was mainly soy but it was delicious.
One episode of wife swap (yes I've watched this show) there was a family of vegitarians that switched with gator farmers. The kids were raised vegt. and when the mom was in louisianna, she tried some gator nuggets ("b/c it wasn't a vegt. animal like a pig or cow"-which got to me- I love reptiles!) anyway, when she got home she told her family and I felt so bad for the kids b/c you could see in their faces that there whole world came crashing down. They were raised to believe that eating animals were wrong and their mom ate one. It was sad.

[akintolife]

Originally Posted by caribear

3. Vegans stay away from all animal proteins and animal by-products. This is the most extreme form of vegetarian diet, as vegans get all of their nutrition from grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts and seeds. It is the hardest form to cook & everything. Bread is made with eggs. Even vegetarian burgers are made with egg. Many non-dairy products are thickened with casein which is extracted from milk.

the other diets you mention are vegetarian, not vegan. A person can be vegetarian and not vegan, but can't be vegan and not vegetarian.

I don't know where people get the idea that bread is made with eggs from though. Proper bread is not made with eggs, nor should it have any dairy products. I don't buy any fancy bread but can get bread that doesn't contain eggs or milk at the supermarket (although I tend to make my own because I don't like all the preservatives).

Not all vegetarian burgers contain eggs or milk or casein. And unlike most people seem to believe vegan food is really easy to cook. I rarely make a meal that takes longer than 10 minutes to cook -- and it rarely involves things that are premade or from packets.

[Terekins]

And it's cheaper too! I spend a lot less on groceries now, and I've learned to cook since becoming vegetarian.

[xDanix]

Yes! A vegetarian diet is so much cheaper!

Breads are not made with eggs. Of course you can find some special or different kind of bread in the supermarket, but the traditional recipe of bread doesn´t take eggs.

Oh, and there are veg. burgers without eggs too. And you can always make your own burgers at home if you can´t find them at the supermarket.

[xDanix]

I think that it is so wrong...and so sad...
Poor kids. How will they see their mom after that?
And how will she explain to them that, despite everything she has taught them, she ate an dead animal? These kids can just start eating meat after that, and what will she do?
Wrong, just wrong.

Originally Posted by Alawishes

I knew a vegan once and had vegan "chocolate cheese cake". It was mainly soy but it was delicious.
One episode of wife swap (yes I've watched this show) there was a family of vegitarians that switched with gator farmers. The kids were raised vegt. and when the mom was in louisianna, she tried some gator nuggets ("b/c it wasn't a vegt. animal like a pig or cow"-which got to me- I love reptiles!) anyway, when she got home she told her family and I felt so bad for the kids b/c you could see in their faces that there whole world came crashing down. They were raised to believe that eating animals were wrong and their mom ate one. It was sad.

[JarBax]

Unfortunately all this labeling, and chastising things as being 'wrong' does nothing to support the good that people do (no matter how small) in lessening cruelty and suffering to animals.

[Alawishes]

what is casein?