Question for vegans

[Coopdog]

We were sitting around the table yesterday, and the topic of vegetarians/vegans came up. While everyone could grasp the philosophies behind being a vegetarian (though not all agreed), none of us could figure out the logic behind being vegan. So, my question is for the vegans on the board:

What is the reasoning behind your choice to not consume any animal products? I understand the concept of not wanting to harm or kill another creature, but how does taking a non fertile egg from a chicken cause it any harm? Or taking surplus milk from a cow? I'm not talking about factory farming (even as a non vegetarian, that makes me cringe), but just the simple act of sharing another animal's excess production of food products.

When I was nursing my children, I gave some of my extra milk to another Mom who's baby was ill and needed it. How is that different from milking a cow, as long as it is being done in a humane manner?

If your argument is based more on health issues, then what are your views on that? I believe the human has evolved to be an omnivore, like many other animals. Our bodies are geared to process both plant and animal foods, and many necessary nutrients are quite difficult to obtain in the wild (ie. without supplements) without eating meat and dairy products.

So, there's my question. I look forward to your answers, so that maybe by Christmas, I will have an answer for those at my table!

[CavySpirit]

I personally don't think that's the issue. Being a vegan - at least to me - means no animal products which could or does harm an animal.

BUT, in today's world, milk IS factory farmed. I don't care if it's 'organic' it's still factory farmed. It is NOT natural. It does harm the cows. That's just an example. Same with chicken eggs.

And the difference on vegan vs. vegetarian is also more about other products like leather, fur, soaps, shampoos and such. It goes beyond what you put in your mouth.

[Coopdog]

BUT, in today's world, milk IS factory farmed. I don't care if it's 'organic' it's still factory farmed. It is NOT natural. It does harm the cows. That's just an example. Same with chicken eggs.

Actually, when we lived in the country, one of our neighbors had chickens in their yard that we bought eggs from. And I have known people who drank raw milk from their own cows. That's why I brought up the idea of humane methods of getting foods from animals. I wanted to get the "factory" issue out of the way.

[CavySpirit]

Yes, I'm well aware of that possibility. I also grew up that way, however, in a philosophical discussion with your friends, that isn't the issue, that's why I do bring it up. It is not possible to get the factory issue 'out of the way.' It just isn't.

[Percy's Mom]

To the best of my knowledge (and feel free to correct me), cows do not produce milk unless they are pregnant or have just given birth, so to commercially produce milk, either calves are taken from them extremely early on, or they have to be injected with hormones to simulate pregnancy.

Chickens will produce eggs regardless, but the living conditions of most farm animals is deplorable. If you know a farmer that truly has his chickens free range where they have a field to run around in, excellent feed and water, and a warm dry place to stay without being in a cage, I would personally snatch those eggs up. Nothing tastes much better than a farm fresh egg from a chicken that has wonderful living conditions.

[JarBax]

I cannot answer as 'a vegan', as no longer consume/use nothing animal (though do my upmost to consume/use as little as I can), however as I was once a strict vegan, I hope I still qualify to try to address a couple of points.

As T stated, factory farming is the issue. I believe that the cows you get your milk from are not supposed to be here point blank. They are created by man through artificial insemination. After giving birth - thus triggering lactation - female cows spend a minimum time with their calves, before the calves are taken away, but the mothersare still milked. Not to feed their calves - but to feed the industry.

As a mother nursing my son, I witnessed the distress the mother cows experienced when their offspring were removed. I wondered what the difference really was between us... Cows milk is specifically designed to feed baby cows, not humans.

It boils down to the exploitation of animals, and not wanting to be a part of that exploitation. Looking beneath the surface of what actually happens to farmed animals (be it chickens, cows, sheep, bees) is an uncomfortable experience. The PETA video Meet Your Meat is a good place to start.

GoVeg.com // Cruelty to Animals: Mechanized Madness

Edit: There are as many different reasons for people to become vegan as there are vegans. This is just one of mine.

[ScottandDebbie]

Originally Posted by Coopdog

What is the reasoning behind your choice to not consume any animal products? I understand the concept of not wanting to harm or kill another creature, but how does taking a non fertile egg from a chicken cause it any harm? Or taking surplus milk from a cow? I'm not talking about factory farming (even as a non vegetarian, that makes me cringe), but just the simple act of sharing another animal's excess production of food products.

I am a vegan *only* because the "no harm" aspect.
If any animal or creature is harmed, in any way, so that I might wear a pair of leather shoes, or fill my belly, etc., as the results of their death. then I don't do it.

Being a vegan is not a so-called religion with me.
It's a lifestyle principal.

I might eat eggs that were going to go to waste if I *knew* they were not brought about in a harmful manner to a chicken.

Scott and I (and our daughter) have also discussed if we would consider eating deer meat, if we had viewed a dear being struck in the head, and killed by a car. (Presuming that the meat was edible.)

All three of us came to the strong conclusion that we would not be able to do this out of sheer honor for that once living creature.
This is ONLY our opinion, and I will state right off that I would respect other's opinions.

I am such a softy for animals... I could actually see myself out by the side of the road digging a hole in the ground, and performing a funeral for that Poor Car Struck Deer.

Off Topic a bit... but still linked...
In my closet I have a gorgeous mink coat that was my mother's.
I cannot sell it, as there would be a profit from the deaths of those minks.
I cannot give it away, as other people would see the coat on another and this would send a signal that it's OK to kill for animal fur.
So... I have decided that I will honor the minks by making throw pillows and placing them in my bedroom.
Scott and I can honor their lives and yet not promote killing.

[Susan9608]

Veganism isn't not a set of rules; it is not a list of ingredients. It is a life style designed to help end the suffering of animals. In today's world, there may be a few small farms that employ "free-range" techniques and where the animals are happy and healthy, but that is not the norm. The factory farm conditions cannot be discounted; to do so, even for the purposes of a hypothetical discussion, discounts the suffering and torture all the factory farmed animals endure.

A vegan diet is one that is free of all animal products, even free-range animal products, including things like bone char in sugar. Veganism can go beyond diet, though, beyond the technical dictionary definition of one who eliminates all animal products from their diet. Veganism can be a cruelty free life style, a life style in which a person is always conscious of the cruelty of make-up choices, household product choices, and even clothing choices.

I think the rationale behind being a vegan is the idea that animals are not ours to use for any purpose, not for food, not for research, and not for entertainment. Just because taking a chicken's unfertilized egg won't hurt the chicken or taking extra milk from a free-range cow won't hurt the cow doesn't make it okay to do so. Yes, human beings can share their milk with other babies, but there is an inherent difference - human beings get to *choose* when, where, and with whom they share their excess. Animals get no such choice. Non-human animals are forced to share or give-up everything from their milk and eggs, to their feathers and skin, to their very lives to whomever has the strength and force to take it.

Is it okay to take some thing from someone just because they aren't going to use it and because taking it won't hurt them? If you're talking about human beings, of course it isn't okay - it's considered stealing. So why is it any different when it comes to non-human animals?

[Coopdog]

So... I have decided that I will honor the minks by making throw pillows and placing them in my bedroom.
Scott and I can honor their lives and yet not promote killing.

I think on the PETA site there is a link to an address where you can send old furs. They clean them and cut them into pieces to give to foster wild baby animals. It helps them feel like they are with Mom. I wish I had known about it before I got rid of any furs I had!

[Coopdog]

Yes, I'm well aware of that possibility. I also grew up that way, however, in a philosophical discussion with your friends, that isn't the issue, that's why I do bring it up. It is not possible to get the factory issue 'out of the way.' It just isn't.

Point taken. I'm just playing devil's advocate to get to the heart of the issue.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by Coopdog

I think on the PETA site there is a link to an address where you can send old furs. They clean them and cut them into pieces to give to foster wild baby animals. It helps them feel like they are with Mom. I wish I had known about it before I got rid of any furs I had!

Really? I'll have to check that out. Like Debbie, I have a beautiful seal fur coat given to me by my Grandmother. It just sits in the closet.

[JarBax]

Susan - that's what I meant to say!!! (you put it so well!)

Just to add to the fur topic: I worked for 5 years as a volunteer in our local Oxfam charity shop, where we got some fur hats and coats handed in (not many - but a few). I was so glad to learn that we could bag them up, and they would be sent to cold countries where people (through deprivation and abject poverty) were desperately in need of warm clothing. It may have taken a year to fill a bag, but I did have a small feeling that at least the animals' lives hadn't been entirely in vain.

[CF#5]

I think it's wrong for humans to use animal fur no matter how needy they are.

This is for wildlife programs.

Coats for Cubs: Donate Your Old Furs to Wildlife

[I'msocute!!!!~]

It boils down to the exploitation of animals, and not wanting to be a part of that exploitation. Looking beneath the surface of what actually happens to farmed animals (be it chickens, cows, sheep, bees) is an uncomfortable experience. The PETA video Meet Your Meat is a good place to start.

GoVeg.com // Cruelty to Animals: Mechanized Madness

Edit: There are as many different reasons for people to become vegan as there are vegans. This is just one of mine.[/quote]


Regarding the the meat video: I just dont understand why the industries dont end the animals life in a respectful manner eg putting them down, before burning them etc and giving them pain killers when castrating them ( I guess money is more important to them) Instead these poor, most importantly innocent animals have to endure so much pain, its so unfair. The way they treat those animals made me sick and so terribly sad. For every animal that is abused, that inhumane person should be abused the same way and thrown in to jail! See how they like it!

[I'msocute!!!!~]

However than again, the whole world would have to stop eating animal products for a whole month in order to affect the industries. In this world situation, it is a non win

[Coopdog]

I just dont understand why the industries dont end the animals life in a respectful manner

Please go to this website. This remarkable woman has single handedly begun a revolution in the livestock industry.

Temple Grandin's Web Page