I'm very confused.

[JB's Dad]

For the last several days I have spent hours and hours reading and studying so I can help my daughter provide the best care possible for our three adopted piggies. I have come across conflicting information about pellets. In one article on GL about malocclusion, the recommended advice was to never feed pellets. The reason was that pellets provide more nutrition with less chewing than hay, causing slack or weakened jaw muscles, resulting in an increased risk of malocclusion. The rescue shelter said the same thing. However in another article on GL about nutrition, high quality pellets are recommended. Even this site (GuineaPigCages.com) seems to advocate the use of pellets.
Currently, we are not feeding pellets, as requested by the rescue. Could someone please clarify the conflicting information? If necessary, I can hunt down the article on GL which specifically mentions not feeding pellets. I just want to make sure we are doing the right thing.

[FlowersGrandma]

I know some people do not feed pellets at all, but rather try to get proper nutrition from hay and veggies. Pellets are the least of their diet. I feed them because they do contain Vit C as long as they are fresh, and my guys love them, but they also eat lots of hay during the day. My hay bin is fully open and they can eat all of it they want each day. They also love their veggies.
If you do decide to use pellets (and I admit I can't answer your question as I haven't seen the articles) use a good quality one, and feed 1/8 cup per piggie. They will mainly eat hay and veggies. But I like knowing their getting that little extra vit C. Not sure if the pellets are fortified with any thing else or not that piggies need that they wouldn't get in veggies or hay. But if you aren't going to feed them, really read up on nutrition so you know they are getting plenty of C without too much of the other things that can be bad for piggies.

[PiggiePaws]

Having a pellet free diet is something that shouldn't be attempted without a lot of studying. You would have to make a very intricate diet plan - making sure your pigs get every vitamin they need. You have to study each vegetable for the amounts of vitamins, etc. Simply said, it's hard to do!

It's much better and easier to just feed pellets.

I've never heard of a pig getting malocclusion from eating pellets - it seems to me the chances would be pretty slim. But I'm not completely sure about that. I would love to read the article if you could find it.

[blackarrow]

If you fed nothing but pellets, I could definitely see how slack jaws and malocclusion would be a likelihood, but while it's definitely recommended here that a high-quality pellet such as Oxbow or Kleenmama's be fed, they're a very tiny part of the diet (limited to 1/8 C/pig/day) and the pellets do not replace the need for grass hay 24/7 and a good supply of fresh vegetables. In other words, it makes much more sense for the average cavy owner to feed a small amount of pellets along with a good veggie diet with unlimited hay than it does to do all the research and purchasing that it would require to meet their nutritional needs minus the pellets.

[cfoster1966]

I feed 1/8 cup per pig a day. I feed them in the morning and by night they are gone. So, they spend about 12 hours a day eating only hay and I feel pretty good about that, esp when the hay racks are near emoty in the morning. I think it is the best of both worlds for them.

[Cogni]

I think there is some outdated idea many people still have that you can feed pellets INSTEAD of hay, since pellets contain hay. I bet that is why the vets see malocclusion and link it with feeding of pellets. Blackarrow and PiggiePaws are right, not the ones who say 'no pellets'.
Great healthy, balanced pellets are available by mail order so you do not need to support pet stores that sell animals. I bought a 10lb bag months ago from Kleenmama's Hayloft and there are still loads left. Pellets last a long time because they are given in very limited amounts. Next time I am going to freeze half the bag.

[utsarah]

We fed unlimited Oxbox Cavy Performance until our two guinea pigs were about 8 months old, a little older than the recommended 6 months. Now they get 1/8 cup each per day of Oxbow Cavy Cuisine, unlimited hay and at least 1 cup a day each of fresh greens mixed with veggies or fruits.

[skinnypigs]

I feed 1/8 cup per pig a day. I feed them in the morning and by night they are gone. So, they spend about 12 hours a day eating only hay and I feel pretty good about that, esp when the hay racks are near emoty in the morning. I think it is the best of both worlds for them.

That is exactly what I do!
In the morning before I go to work they get 1/4 of pellets for the both of them and by late evening they are all gone. The boys spend all night only eating hay and in the morning I need to fill up all 3 hay feeders and their pellet dish again. I know they like their pellets but they also eat tons of hay.

[fieryone]

I echo everyone else. A diet without pellets is called HAFF and even Ly, the mod who specializes in piggy diets, admittedly doesn't know enough about this diet to attempt it. It requires a ton of research and there just isn't that much information out there about it and how to do it successfully. I would also advise giving your pigs the recommended 1/8 cup of high quality pellets per pig per day along with a variety of vegetables and unlimited grass hay. That way you'll know that you're giving your pigs all of the nutrients that they need to be healthy. The hay and veggies will grind their teeth down.

There isn't a guarantee that you won't have a pig develop malocclusion (I just lost a pig to this a little over a week ago ) but my personal opinion is that feeding pellets (unless it's their entire diet) wouldn't be a major contributor to developing malocclusion. My understanding is that it's usually caused by genetics or an underlying medical condition.

[KDonohue]

I know what you mean with a lot of mixed messages out there. Generally I make this site my point of reference as it is the most up to date. A lot of books and even guinealynx can sometimes have older information. I agree with previous posters about feeding pellets, all of mine are under 6 months so they get unlimited pellets for the time being. They only really eat their pellets when their hay bins are empty and I haven't filled them up yet. They go through TONS of hay and generally eat 1/8 cup of pellets a day on their own accord without me even moderating their intake.

[JB's Dad]

I found the article. I knew I read it somewhere:

http://www.guinealynx.info/forums/vi...=190399#190399

The post was by someone named Pinta (from what I could gather, a person of some respect on that forum). It's at the bottom of page 4. Here is a snippet:

"How can we prevent this from happening?

Reduce or completely remove pellets forcing them to get their calories from hay and grass. Dr. Legendre advocates complete removal of pellets. They will be forced to continually chew to get the same nutrition from hay that they get from pellets.

Dr. Legendre has told me that malocclusion does not occur in wild pigs to the degree it does in domesticated pigs. (He may have even said it doesn't occur in wild pigs at all.) Another well known dental vet (David Crossley, I think) did a study of skulls of wild pigs of various ages and the teeth were perfect. He attributed this to the rough and low nutrient diet that forced them to work their teeth continually (and in doing so, work their jaw muscles)."


Obviously, it's a very dated post and may very well be considered wrong and obsolete now. If so, I couldn't find a post that negated this one. Hence my confusion. When I picked up the girls, I had the forsight to take a menu for this week with me so Julene could review it. She gave it two thumbs up and again emphasized no pellets. She had previously emailed me a very extensive care and nutrition guide which I studied several times before shopping for the foods to give them. Their snacks/treats are only from the high Vit C list.
I'm not trying to argue here, don't mis-understand my post. I'm just giving all of the information I can so people understand where I am at this point. I only want the best for these pigs. I am sending Julene an email about perhaps allowing 1/8 cup of pellets per day per pig and see what she says. As per the adoption agreement, I'm bound to follow her guidlines (unless I discover something is seriously dangerous at which point the agreement is out the window). I tried to do the right thing by adopting, I also want to try to do the right thing by the pigs and by the rescue shelter. Thanks for your patience with me.

[sidlulu7]

Hello! I've been feeding my guinea pig pellets for over a year and hes absolutely fine! I'm sure your guinea pig would be fine eating them. If they are okay eating what there eating now then you don't need to switch to eating pellets but, if you give pellets a try i think you'll love them. Just make sure your guinea pigs have plenty of things to chew on for their teeth and plenty of timothy hay to! Hope this helped!

[FlowersGrandma]

I think the real key is making sure they have access to TONS of hay. I see some pictures in the galleries with only a handful of hay. I give mine close to half a flake of hay a day, and it's usually mostly gone by that night. They aren't overweight but they certainly can put away the hay. I buy mine locally, currently using Timothy/alfalfa mix since they just turned 7-8 months old. Will get only Timothy when I make the trip in a few weeks to get our winter load. So I feed them all they can possible eat and yes, even burrow in because it cost me 7.50 (bought it off season, it's normally 3.50) for the whole bale. They won't eat all of it before it molds so I don't have a problem letting them have plenty and if it gets wet, we toss it.
I feed it in an open bin because when I tried wire racks, they wanted to get in, making me worry about broken legs and when I used a full grid and hung it high, they ate very little each day because it was too hard to pull through the grid holes (and they are lazy pigs). So now, I have the open bin and they eat it away. And I can tell not only in the amount of hay gone, but in the amounts of poop produced. Eating, pooping pigs are healthy pigs in my mind and it's worth the cost to me to buy several bales of fresh hay throughout the year than to make even one trip to the vet with a sick piggy, not to mention the worry.

Good pellets (I buy mine in bulk from Sweetmeadow farms and have been very pleased by the way) smell like hay, they feel like hay, they digest like hay. They probably don't do much for the front teeth, but they do have to be chewed and that has to strengthen the back jaws even if it doesn't wear down the teeth. By ordering in bulk and freezing them, I pay $1 a month for good pellets. That's cheaper than any commercial "cheap" food you can find. And they still smell good when I thaw them from the freezer. I grew up on a farm. I know what fresh hay smells like. It smells good. Even the Cavy Cuisine I bought in the store didn't smell this good. No telling how long ago it had been packed. It may have the right nutritional values, but I assure you it didn't smell this fresh. I haven't used Kleenmamma's but I am sure someone who does would say the same about hers. I am not saying that Cavy Cuisine isn't a good quality pellet. Just that my piggies prefer the Sweetmeadow. When I open the container, they run to the side of the cage, noses in the air. They know dinner is about to be served.

[Sirene]

Interesting post! I am wondering about the research, though. Perhaps wild pigs who develop malocclusion just die, however, leaving only those with healthy teeth (who are thus able to eat and survive) available for study. Or maybe wild pigs don't live long enough to develop age-related malocclusion.

Also, cavia porcellus (the domestic guinea pig) doesn't exist in the wild. Maybe wild pigs have different teeth.

I don't know anything about it, really, I just like to look at research from all angles .

It's a shame Ly is on vacation this week - she's really the one you want to be having these discussions with!

[FlowersGrandma]

I'd think wild pigs would also have to pull up their food and rip it to eat it where as domesticated pigs eat it out of a pile in a cage. I also doubt you have the inbreeding in wild pigs you have in domesticated pigs.

[PiggiePaws]

As per the adoption agreement, I'm bound to follow her guidlines (unless I discover something is seriously dangerous at which point the agreement is out the window). I tried to do the right thing by adopting, I also want to try to do the right thing by the pigs and by the rescue shelter. Thanks for your patience with me.

I'm glad you want to do the right things for your pigs! But, I still say feeding pellets would be the best idea.

Can you post everything you feed them? I'm curious and would like to see her nutrition guide.

[JB's Dad]

I was thinking the same thing Sirene. However, if the wild pigs that developed malocclusion just die, wouldn't their skulls still show the problem? You would think that some percentage of them would.

[Sirene]

I was thinking the same thing Sirene. However, if the wild pigs that developed malocclusion just die, wouldn't their skulls still show the problem? You would think that some percentage of them would.

Yes, if he studied skulls from guinea pigs that died of natural causes, you would probably expect at least a representative percentage to come from guinea pigs that died of starvation caused by malocclusion. If they tend to develop malocclusion, become weak and slow and then become targets for predators who would crush skulls or scatter bones, though, you'd rarely find such skulls, and it would skew the statistics. It would be interesting to find out where he got the skulls.

[JB's Dad]

Sure PiggiePaws. Here is the menu through today:

Monday AM:
Fresh water
Fresh Hay
1-1/2 cups mixed greens
3/4 cup mixed beets and celery

Monday PM:
Fresh Hay
Fresh Water
1-1/2 cups mixed greens
3/4 cup mixed apples and bell peppers

Tuesday AM:
Fresh water
Fresh hay
1-1/2 cups mixed greens
3/4 cup snow peas and zucchini

Tuesday PM:
Fresh Water
Fresh hay
1-1/2 cups mixed greens
3/4 cup mixed beets and broccoli stems

Wednesday AM:
Fresh Water
Fresh hay
1-1/2 cups mixed greens
3/4 cups mixed bell peppers and celery

Wednesday PM:
Fresh water
Fresh hay
1-1/2 cups mixed greens
3/4 cup mixed strawberries and zuchinni

Mixed greens consist of green and red leaf lettuce and Romain lettuce chopped and mixed in equal amounts. Also added is 1/2 amount of beet tops or turnip greens alternated every day.

Treats/snacks are green seedless grapes cut in half (no more than one or two per pig and no more than twice a week), Red and orange bell peppers cut into strips (unlimited), and 1/2 of an orange wedge per pig (no more than once or twice a week).

[FlowersGrandma]

Malocclusions in guinea pigs, chinchillas and rabbits

Found this article by Dr. Legendre himself. Might be better to read what he said, than someone else's quote. "The occlusion in this case is basically sound but the patient is not chewing vigorously enough or long enough. The main cause is dietary. These pets are fed processed, soft food and not enough coarse, abrasive plant material. The teeth are not worn out adequately and overgrow. The patient finds itself stuck with its mouth open"

The pellets we are using aren't soft and I'm not really sure they are processed beyond adding vitamins and then condensing. I tend to feed crunchy vegetables, like bell peppers and not soft foods like grapes. And again lots and lots of hay. I think the key is to make sure they are eating lots and lots of hay. But you can now read his article and decide for yourself what you want to do. 1/8 cup of pellets isn't very much over a 24 hour period. But your girls are older and you have to decide what is best for them. Definitely I'd bring this subject up again once Ly is back and see what she says on the subject. She can also tell you way more about the composition of the pellets you are thinking of using then I can by looking at them. She may also know more about this doctor's credentials than any of us do. It may be his advice is only for piggies with malocclusion and not as a preventative.

But I do know if you offer lots and lots of hay, your girls will eat it, pellets, and veggies aside.