A rabbit love-hate relationship.

[leyley904]

Okay, I will start from the beginning.
I got Beans from a friend down the street. The family was extremely uneducated and their rabbits had never had veggies, toys, or even hay. He lived next to two much larger rabbits that refused to get along with him (the other two rabbits soon got a wonderful new home together). He is the sweetest, goofiest rabbit I have ever seen. He is also very peculiar, for instance, he loves flipping over a mat I have in his cage to sit on the rubber backing, it is the only place he will sleep.
I decided to get Beans a friend. That is when I got Benny from a rescue. They are the same size (2 1/2 pounds) and same breed (Netherland Dwarf). Benny is also extremely sweet and can act very odd, also.
When I got Benny, he got along with Beans wonderfully. Easier than I could've imagined. But, one day, they got in a small tussle. No blood, so I let them be. That small tussle turned into an all-out brawl. I contacted the rabbit rescue, and followed their instructions (they are local). But, B&B refused to make amends.
Nowadays, I can hold them together. When I hold them, they must be side by side, or else they fight (I will explain that in more detail in a second). But, when side by side, they are totally at ease. Sleeping, grooming themselves, ect.
I think I have figured out why they fight, though. When they have room to move around and face each other, then bow down to try and get the other rabbit to groom them. They both do this, and no grooming comes out of this. So, they get frustrated and basically attack each other. This is bloody, and has only happened twice (accidents with barriers-taking extreme precautions now).

Okay, now to the part that stumps me. They will occasionally groom each other! Well... theres more to it than that. Beans will, no doubt, groom Benny when I hold them. He will groom me, too, I know it is normal grooming. Benny seems so content at these times. But, then Benny turns and... well, I have no clue what he does. Its sort of grooming... with a small nibble? (I've seen my dogs groom each other and they use there teeth to sort of itch the other dog, so I could have conflicting ideas coming from my weirdo dogs :P) Benny first grooms normally, then it looks like he nibbles. Beans jumps, but it doesn't break his skin, or pull out hair. Beans will relax again. Benny has a 'whatever' expression. Grooming comes naturally to rabbits, correct? So I'm guessing that its not possible that Benny doesn't know how to groom, right?
And another weird thing. They LOVE each other through the cage bars. No joke, LOVE. They watch each other a lot. They sit right next to each other (cage bars in between them). And they get agitated if they are by themselves in the cage, I HAVE to hold them together. They binky when they get back together in the cage.

Sorry for the length. And its sort of jumbled, but I tried to get as much info in as possible. Any information would be appreciated. Greatly appreciated. Will the ever be able to live together? That would be so great if they could, but I know it can take years sometimes. They are on the right track, thankfully. Thanks.

[Hawise]

Hey leyley! Not easy to bond rabbits Are they both intact males? Same sex pairs find it harder to live together in harmony, and they'll almost always fight when they are not neutered. How old are your little furries?
Some rabbits need time to learn how to groom. My Tristan was really clumsy at first, but for some reason, his friend would not "retaliate" when he was a bit rough. He's much better now, although he'll never be a "groomer".
When they asked to be groomed (lowering their head on the floor) and the other doesn't respond, they get frustrated because grooming is a way to assert your leadership when you're a rabbit. The top rabbit will demand to be groomed and the lower rabbit shows his/her submission by complying. It might be why yours act like this.
All in all, same sex pairs are much harder to bond, although it is not impossible as they "calm down" when they're neutered.

[leyley904]

Yeah, I realize that bowing their heads is a dominance thing, which also confuses me, as they show absolutely no other dominance behavior at all. They are both neutered. I'm scared I may have messed this all up, as I did introduce them before Beans was neutered, and they got along. Is it possible that Beans' reduce in hormones was so drastic that they don't know what to think of it? I should have waited. But its been around months since they have both been neutered.
I have them in front of me now and am watching them. They both bowed their heads (I'm literally in fingers-length of them) they sat there for a while, then both just stood up. Then they did it again and they have been staying bowed for like 3 minuted now. Is it normal to stay that long?

Also, do you think what Benny is doing is grooming? Is he just learning, or is it something else? He has never been with a bun companion until I got him. I'm relieved to hear that its possible that he just is learning, now I know that he probably isn't just being rude, as he is so sweet!

Thanks SO much, hawise!
P.S. Oh, and they are both 2 years. Also, the rescue does 'speed dates', which let me introduce Beans to several other rabbits, and he related to Benny the best by far.

[Catayn]

As far as I'm concerned rabbits ar not so much as piggies, or cats. They won't start fight and then one will let it be. They will fght to their death.
When my rabbits were fighting they were not trying to scare each other, they were not trying to hurt each other. They were truly trying to kill the other rabbit. I've seen pit bulls being less aggressive in a fight.
Since they are both neutered, they should not be fighting at all and I believe they are just going to figure things out by themselves.
How long has it been since you've neutered the last one, if you don't mind me asking?

[leyley904]

Catalyn, I agree, the fights are truly terrifying. I think mine are just trying to figure things out, though. Its been about 4 months since the other rabbit was neutered, and he shows no signs of any lingering hormones.
They haven't had a fight in about 2 months, but sometimes I feel like one is coming on, which scares me terribly. Did your rabbits ever work things out?

[leyley904]

Hm. Benny just did the 'nibble' thing to my finger, and it didn't hurt at all. He seemed almost proud of himself, haha.

[Catayn]

Sure, they cannot be separated at any cost by now. Sometimes they had some "situations" but no fights. I let them do things their way and it's been months since I could see anything disturbing. They just love each other.
Some time ago, Beta insisted in trying to lick Gama's eye and she made it pretty clear she didn't want him to. Not that her reaction prevented him from going on with the whole eye-licking thing. That day I saw something interesting. They didn't fight. She just sat on him. The fact that he is a Rex and that she is a British/German giant helped him to get the message. and stop doing it.
He's still trying, but he uses a different approach. It's really funny.
I'm sure your rabbits will be just fine.

[leyley904]

Okay, thanks! So before they really got along, how did you make sure that they wouldn't attack each other?

[Catayn]

I didn't. I just sat there and watched. For hours and hours, and then I would just put them to sleep side by side, but in separate cages. When they spent the whole day getting along I just knew they would never fight again.
I never did anything to prevent them from fighting when I was around. I knew they would eventually work things out, you know. But when Gama started throuwing Beta in the air, obviously, I separated them. I got lots of scratches and bites, but it was worth it. Just be careful, you could get more seriously hurt then them.
Anywa, there is no secret, you ave to watch them together and follow your instincts.

[leyley904]

They've been enjoying each other's company through cage bars for a few months now, should I try a neutral zone? Should I try just basic bonding from the start?
To be honest, I would rather have to rush to emergency and get stitches, if it means my buns will love each other. But, I sure won't seek it out, haha! In the two previous major fights, I didn't get a scratch when separating them. Right when I grab them, they stop. Neither of them have bitten me, I hoping things will stay that way, but I expect bites along the way, you know. Again, thanks.

[animallover2424]

I hope everything works out. I don't have experience with rabbits but I know dogs tend to work things out but sometimes it takes months. Hopefully rabbits don't hold grudges.

[Hawise]

Hey leyley, Catayn gave you excellent advice.

It is not uncommon for rabbit owners to have to re-introduce and re-bond same sex pairs when they get separated, even for just a day. I would re-do the bonding process as it may be that when one left to be neutered, it broke the bond between. It does not always happen, but it may be like they are acting differently.

Again, brilliant advice from Catayn, go with your instinct and watch them constantly. A bit of fur flying is common when rabbits are fighting, but blood is not. When you feel that they're getting too rough, protect your hand and arm in a thick towel as the rabbits will just bit and scratch blindly. They can indeed be very violent.

I am sorry, I had to giggle when you described them both lowering their head demanding to be groomed, like two stubborn children Don't you love rabbits? They are so expressive and are capable of such complex emotions and behaviours

I am curious, do you have any pictures of little ones? You're welcome for the advice. When I had to bond mine, my friend at the rescue was so helpful, explaining everything to me and I learnt a lot from her, so I'm glad if I can share now.

PS: Just as I was typing, Tristan tried to groom Isolde and a bit of fluff came out. She startled and licked him, as if to show him how to do it!

[leyley904]

Yeah, I will start the bonding process. I have to admit, I'm not even sure they will fight. If it wasn't already obvious, I've not really been giving them a chance to work things out. Those fights are so violent, and it scares me to think that I could let that happen again. But, considering how much things have improved with the (trying) grooming and stuff, things may go easier. So, I should just let them be when they bow, correct? When they did is last night, nothing came out of it, which makes me feel SO much better!
Yes, the bowing thing still somehow manages to crack me up! Even though I have that feeling of panic in the back of my head... :\ . I've seen other rabbits do it and they get lower and lower, but Beans and Benny just stay absolutly still, you can't even see them breathing! They just don't know who will make the first move, I guess (Or not make it I have learned)
This post has taught me SO much, but it has also been eye-opening to look back on my actions. I hadn't realized that I had been keeping them from working things out, even as they were improving. I feel terrible about that.
To be honest, when getting Beans, I wasn't expecting such expressive animals! They are nothing like hamsters, thats for sure! They have facial expressions, and develop their own likes and dislikes! Yes, I LOVE rabbits. I would suggest them to anyone who is ready!

Here is a picture from Christmas, they didn't even seem to mind the hats!! Well, except when Beans tried to groom his face and got a mouthful of beard! (if you have rabbits, you can probably imagine that! haha!)



P.S. I hope that picture works, I can never get that right.
P.P.S. I know what I'm doing now, but any new information is still welcome, I can always learn something new!!

[leyley904]

Gr, its been ten minutes.
Beans is the Grey, Benny the white.
Benny's ears are changing for the season! They are even darker now, in the summer he is all white except for a smudge on his nose (his name at the rescue was Smudge!)
Yes, Beans only has half of a nose. (all healed now and doesn't effect him, except for an extra snotty nose, sometimes!)
As I mentioned in the original post, he lived with two much larger rabbits at one point.
Well folks, this is what happens when you leave your rabbits in an outdoor hutch, expect them to magically get along, and don't check on them for several hours. Ugh, I need to stop now, or else I'll get all worked up and go on a rampage!

[Catayn]

Oh yeah, they are expressive, too much sometimes. I just love it when they sit on a corner and sulk about a correction they've taken. It's just like a child.
As for you feeling guilty, I would personaly relish on telling you that yes, it is all your fault, but it isn't. You didn't know what to do, so you did what you thought was best in order to prevent them from hurting each other. And that's alright. Rabbits are normally considered calm, sweet furry balls, which they're not. They have very distinct and strong personalities that can be hard to deal with sometimes.
From now on, let them work things out on their own. If they are not fighting from the very second they see each other, they are probably improving a lot. It's a long way and it takes lots of patience, but it's absolutely worth the trouble, I can assure you that.
Another tip for you: I don't know if it's the same for all rabbits, but mine tend to act very differently when they are near me or my husband, and when they are on their own. They are the best behaved little angels when we are around, but when we turn our backs they'll fin something "evil" to do, like chewing the furniture. So, when watching them, try to hide from them, which is not hard because they don't get to see very well if you're some steps away. It'll give you an idea of what they are really up to. Wish you luck and lots of patience. They will be alright, you'll see.

EDIT: Your rabbits are so, so cute. That costume would last like 3 minutes on mine, though. It took so long just to make them accept the harness!

[leyley904]

Catalyn, thanks, that makes me feel a lot better! And thanks for everything, you and Hawise have been SO helpful!

[Hawise]

If they don't sleep in the same cage (which I wouldn't advise at this stage to be honest), try to swap their litter box every other day so that they get used to eachother's scent. It'll also help them share the territory. Petting one then the other help transfering the scents in a non threatening way as well. And Catayn is right, try to see how they behave when they don't see you, you'll learn much more about the dynamics of their relationship that way.
Bonding rabbits is really stressful. My friend who runs the rescue is really experienced with bunnies and yet always is nervous when she does "bonding dates". The key, according to her, is to take it slowly and get as little involved as possible as the bunnies need to establish their own hierarchy (with you at the top of course, but that's another story ).
Your bunnies are so cute! I have seen many bunnies with torn noses at the rescue because of people being negligent. But he'll be happy with you now! I don't agree with leaving bunnies in hutches either: they are so much more interesting in the home! People never want to believe me when I told them that they are just as expressive as dogs and communicate much better than cats. And they are really really clever too, and stubborn!!!!
Don't blame yourself. You did what you thought was best and your rabbits are not unhappy, they just need to work out who'll rule the roost!

[Hawise]

You are also very lucky that they are cuddly!!! My two walk over me to get to the other side of the sofa or sometimes sit on me and proceed to chew or dig my clothes
Needless to say that my buns, like Catayn's, would shred such a lovely outfit in 2 minutes: you just need to look at my curtains to understand

[Catayn]

Hawise, how long have you had your rabbits for?
Mine weren't at all cuddling in the beginning. Also, I don't know if it's true, but people say dwarfs are friendlier than others.

[Hawise]

Hawise, how long have you had your rabbits for?
Mine weren't at all cuddling in the beginning. Also, I don't know if it's true, but people say dwarfs are friendlier than others.

I have had the female since August and the male since the start of December. Do you think they'll change and be more cuddly as they get less hyper?

I have heard the contrary, that giants are often much more gentler and relaxed I guess it's really down to their personality! What dd you do to tame your bunnies?

I don't really know what mine are. Isolde, the female, has been described as a "lionhead mix" and Tristan as a "mix". They're unique, hehe.