Rat with a tumor, Options?

[Cavy Carnage]

Last night I discovered a tumor (I presume) on one of my rats. Now I am pretty sure the best thing to do would be have it removed but I have a few concerns. Firstly I think she is probably 14-15 months old but I can't be sure. Is the risk greater for her having surgery because of her age? The tumor doesn't seem to be attached and is approx 1cm from her right armpit. Is this an easy place to remove it from? I know whether I choose surgery or not the chances are another will show up, is it not best to just leave it and let her remaining time be happy and with no suffering (at least currently). The tumor has popped up over 2 days, my husband fed them night before last then last night while playing it was their, its about the size of a pea, though not round. She has a cage mate, would surgery mean seperation? Now I am going to pick whatever is best for her and if that is surgery then so be it but I would like to know the price range it would be, just so we can cut back on other things so we don't have to worry about the bill. Any help/ advice would be great.

[Rattie Mom]

I'm so sorry to hear about your little girl's tumor.

Sadly, these are way too common in female rats. It's just not fair!

16-18 months is a typical age to start to see them too. I've had girls with tumors as young as 10 months. But usually you won't see them until later. We spay all our females now and it seems to drastically reduce the liklihood of tumors. Though it really needs to be done around 4 months of age.

My first bit of advice/question would be to ask if you have a very rat knowledgable exotic vet, who performs a lot of rat surgeries. If you do and feel very confident about your vet, your options just got that much better.

Although once you see one tumor, you may see more pop up later...it's not necessarily a given that you will. You might be lucky enough to only see one. The area you mention, is a very common area for a mammory tumor on a rattie. Another good thing is, almost all tumors on rats are benign. They do get malignant tumors. But in the 8 years I've had rats as pets, I'd put the ratio at about 90/10. Benign tumors are often "free floating" and you can move them around quite easily.

If your rattie is in otherwise good health, a tumor surgery can go very well. The key is to get it off sooner than later. The bigger the tumor, the longer and more difficult the surgery. We do generally keep an eye on the tumor for a bit to see what it will do. Some actually do not grow very rapidly at all....where as some grow super fast. Since you said this one was the size of a pea, I might personally wait a couple of weeks to see what it does. If you notice it doubling in size or literally growing over night...I'd get it off. We try to get ours off by the time they are the size of a grape. But our vet has removed much larger tumors too. I had a 2 year old female that started gaining weight...then we found she had a walnut sized tumor in her belly. I felt horrible I didn't know. Our vet actually managed to remove it and she lived another 6 months (that tumor was malignant and eventually came back).

Very knowledgable rat vets can do internal sutures. I would be careful to find a vet that does, otherwise the rat will (and they definitely WILL) chew open the stitches and you risk infection. Post surgery Metacam is really a must too. Some vets won't just give it to you, unless you specifically ask. It will help with pain and they will be less apt to mess with the incision.

Some folks have their rat spayed during the first tumor removal. This is a personal choice. I have found that the girls I've spayed later in life (we had a couple emergency spays due to uterine tumors), may not help to ward off additional tumors...and that's a more difficult surgery (i.e. they now have two incisions, poor babies).

Our vet has done dozens of tumor removals for us, and just as many spays and neuters. I trust our vets with my life. I would NOT trust a cat/dog vet that says "well, we do a rat surgery every now and again...I'm sure I can do it ok". So I can't stress enough the importance of having that good rat vet to do the surgery.

With any surgery, there is always the risks associate with anesthesia. Luckily for us, we've only lost one dear rattie. But she had a very difficult and long surgery (she had 4 tumors that went very deep). Her little heart just stopped a couple hours after surgery.

As for post surgery and if they need to be separated, it really depends on the rat. If she just has one other cagemate and she's gentle, you might be just fine. If they are in a multi-level cage, I wouldn't put her back, or maybe keep them both in a one level type area. It will be a bit painful for a couple of days, you don't want her climbing, as hematoma's can happen post surgery. If have larger groups of rats. I usually keep a surgery patient in a hospital type cage and away from her pals for a few days. I might put one of her more gentle friends in to keep her company after the second day.

As for pricing, it will differ from area to area. I do think my vet is a bit on the expensive side. They bill by amount of time under anesthesia and the time it takes to remove the tumors. A small grape size or less tumor might run me anywhere from $150-$225. But I've spent as much as $380 for a tumor surgery too (that was the one I mentioned above). I would expect to pay around $200 though.

I hope that helps. Do keep us posted, ok?

[Cavy Carnage]

Thank you so much Rattie Mom! You are always so much help. I am afraid all my questions were answered for me when I went to see how she was today, it has pretty much doubled over night so we are ringing our vet tomorrow morning to see about getting it removed. I know they are excellent at spay/neuters/ ops in rabbits and have heard good things about them with other animals. I will be sure to ask how many rat surgeries they do and no doubt lots of other questions as well. She is only in with one other rat and they tend to squabble a lot so maybe seperation is the answer. In her self she is great, still runs up looking for attention and fuss, nothing has changed other than the tumor. Hopefully she will make it through surgery and live for many more months.

[Rattie Mom]

You know....there is a chance this might just be an abscess then. Especially when you mentioned it doubling in size over night and her squabbles with her cagemate.

Abscesses aren't fun, but once they've been opened, drained, flushed and packed, and the rattie is on a good antibiotic like Cefa (Baytril is good too, though Cefa is just the miracle abscess drug in my opinion), they heal up pretty fast.

In my experience with abscesses, you often have to do home flushing and packing too, to be sure the opening dosen't close up too soon and the infection is allowed to just come back. Not sure how comfortable you would be with that. We use a diluted Chlorohexidine solution in warm water and flush that way. Then we pack with either Neosporin or an antibiotic cream you can get at the vet (Silvadiazine).

Tumors don't generally double over night....so I'm keeping my fingers crossed this is just an abscess.

Keep me posted, ok?

[Cavy Carnage]

My husband is ringing the vets after his meeting is over for an appointment tomorrow hopefully but I have a quick question. I did think that in general an abscess was sort of attached to the tissue under the skin, if so this lump can actually be sort of moved around, it also doesn't seem to hurt her as I have gently squeezed it, I want to believe so much its an abscess but am pretty doubtful.

[Rattie Mom]

Hang in there. I am still crossing my fingers for an abscess. I've had them right there on the surface that don't seem to be attached to the tissue.

Of course, yours is right in a prime mammary tumor location. But I've not seen many double like that, though abscesses certainly will. You might prepare yourself that if it is an abscess, it might burst on it's own before her appt. If it does, let me know and I'd be happy to walk you through what to do. You'll know right away. It's a very discusting smelling goo. Your rattie will be like "what mom? Dontcha wanna give me a kiss"? and your stomach will do a flip flop.

If she's acting normally otherwise, try not to worry too much until the vet takes a look. I know....easier said than done.

[Cavy Carnage]

Well it's either worse than I thought or the vet is just a very pessimistic person. After the day from hell yesterday Lily finally got home without having surgery. She was originally booked in for the vet to take a look and then to do surgery if it was a tumor. Well I waited all day for the phone call from the vet so by 2 I decided to ring. They told me it is a tumor but the vet wanted to talk with us before he went ahead with surgery. Since the vet is quite a way from us my husband took her on the way to work and then picked her up after work, not ideal but really the only way it could work, so all this has come from the vet through my husband. The vet is 100% sure its a mammory tumor. He said if he operates that another will appear in 2-6 weeks, I thought that was a bit extreme though I know possible. He then went on to say that if we were to leave it she would probably have 4 months left, which I thought was optimisitic considering how quickly it is growing. He said surgery day is next Tuesday and that it wouldn't matter whether it was done tomorrow or in a week for example. I am just not sure anymore. Any thoughts would be good.

[Rattie Mom]

I am so sorry you and your dear girl are having to go through all of this. You did say you respect this vet and his expertise with tumor removals?

It most certainly can be a tumor, it's in a very "popular" spot. Though it doubling in size in such a short time concerned me it could be an abscess. You know, even the most experienced vets can still have trouble determining which it is, until they get in there....but usually for abscesses, they come up fast and will burst quickly...then of course, you know!

I must respectfully cry "BS" to your vet's comment that a tumor WILL pop back up in 2-6 weeks. That's just not true. Sure, you may very well see multiple tumors show up. But it might be the only one she ever has too. Sadly, I have seen more show up in many... but it could be several months, or a couple of weeks. There is NO way of knowing. If there was, you'd think they could come up with a way to prevent them (well, other than early spays). If left untreated, tumors do grow, and at the rate you girls' is growing it would probably cut her life expectancy dramatically if it's not removed. But being sure to get not just the tumor but a bit of sorrounding tissue during the surgery can be important in warding off a tumor returning.

I've seen three return post surgery. And they came back VERY quickly and with a vengence. The second surgery, the vet took more sorrounding tissue and the tumor never returned. In these cases, I was a bit peeved at my vet for not trying hard enough the first time...but I guess it wasn't necessarily his fault. He tried to my rattie through the surgery and out of anesthesia as quickly as possible.

Again, my advice is all from being a rat owner for 8 years. I do not have veterinary medical training at all. So please take my advice as you see fit. I personally have seen far too many tumors in rats. And the above had come from what I've learned.

Where abouts are you located? Would you be willing to see if you could get a second opinion before putting through a surgery with him? I would maybe expect a vet to be a bit less negative in his comments than that. I know, you got the info second hand too....so maybe it didn't come across the way it was intended. Our vets are all about getting that tumor off. If the rat is in otherwise good health and not super elderly (though we've had a girl for a tumor removal at 2 1/2 who did just fine) and the tumor hasn't been allowed to grow too large, it can quickly and effectively be removed.

Please feel free to contact me off board if you'd like. I could probably share more tumor info than you'd ever want to know.

Hang in there!

[Cavy Carnage]

Well it is the same vet practice where we got our rabbit spayed and have heard numerous good reports though we had only ever dealt with the female vet before, where as this time the male (ashamed to say I have forgotten both of their names). Various rescues use them as their main vet I believe, though thats not to say they are great. As for tumor removal, I asked the vet tech and she said they deal with a large number of tumors on various rodents. What that actually means I don't know.
I would be happy to try and locate a different vet, I just don't want to wait any longer than necessary in getting it removed (Which I have now decided to get done no matter what). We live in Douglasville, GA so if anyone knows of any good vets around please tell me!
I will probably be sending you a pm soon Rattie as I have various things to ask but don't be afraid to tell me that enough , I am just so worried and I don't my husband really gets it

[Rattie Mom]

I'll check with my rattie "network" and see if anyone knows of a rattie vet in your area. You should only want the best for your baby. And feel free to PM me all you want. Hopefully a quick vet solution can be found and you'll soon have your girl tumor free.

I can help offer lots of advice on questions to ask your vet to be sure they know what's needed for surgery on rats too.

It's just so hard when you don't have 100% confidence in your vet. I searched all over town here, and saw some pretty horrible vets who claimed to see rats.

[Cavy Carnage]

I have some great new, or at least I hope it is good news! I don't want to get too excited but it appears whatever the lump is, its shrinking! On Wednesday evening I did think it had gotten smaller but I told myself off for wishful thinking, but yesterday it had definitely got smaller. Now its even smaller than a pea! I didn't smell any foul smell, nor could I find any sign either on Lily or the area they were in (Bathroom floor, gives them more space to play and run around) of an abscess having burst etc. Does anyone have any ideas? I would still appreciate any other good vets in the area.

[Rattie Mom]

Unfortunately, I haven't had any luck finding a good rattie vet in your area. My other rattie friends are more in Louisville and up further north-east. But I'm still hoping someone can help find you a good vet.

I am SO happy to hear this news about the lump getting smaller, and I am even further convinced this could have been an abscess. Rats are very meticulous groomers, so if it was begining to drain, she could be cleaning it up before you even saw any of the "goo". Not all abscesses smell horrid..though it's certainly kind of gross.

You might want to try a few things. Can you get her to hold still long enough for you to look through her fur in that area? If it was an abscess, you could see either a small scab, hole or some evidence where it might have drained. If you DO see it, you might want to get the scab a little wet and see if it will lift up. Then, gently squeeze the lump to see if any other goo comes out. If so, try and clean it off with a qtip, cotton ball etc.

If it is an abscess, she should be on antibiotics to help clear up the infection before it brews up again. But if that's just not an option (understandable with your vet situation...I can't believe he wouldn't even consider an abscess ), you might try a warm compress or just see if you can get the rest of the goo out. Abscesses are notorious for scabbing over and just filling back up, if not properly treated.

The Chlorohexidine flush can be picked up at any vet. They use this to flush dogs ears too...so if you can get some of that to help keep the area clean, it would be great. And if the rest opens up, good ole Neosporin squeezed in that hole will do wonders to clear up infection (you would just have to give her a cookie and keep her pal away from her for about 20-30 mintues to let it soak in.

Tumors just don't suddenly shrink like that....but abscesses most certainly do. If you see it totally flatten out she's going to be in really good shape.

I'm just so happy to hear this is probably an abscess. YAY.

Hope that wasn't too much info, but hope it helps.

[Rattie Mom]

Just wanted to check and see how your little girl is doing? I hope she's feeling much better now.

[Cavy Carnage]

Thanks for your concern and all the help! She seems to be doing well, the lump has completely gone. I thoroughly searched for a sore/wound etc but found nothing.
We called the vets to cancel the surgery and the vet was well (trying to be nice) defensive even though we made sure we were calm and polite. He said he would have discovered it was a abscess before he operated, wasn't that why we paid $60 for him to check her in the first place? I felt like saying yeh w/e but anyway just said thanks but we will just keep an eye on her. I have yet to find another vet in the area that had much experience with rats so I am hoping an emergency doesn't arise.
One problem we are having is her cage mate constantly chases her then seems to chew on the fur about an inch from the base of the tail, leaving a small area bald, should be separate them? Why is she doing this? It appears out of dominance but I have never had rats try to gain dominance over one another.
The cage they came in is pretty small though does meet the requirements for 2 rats so we added a larger cage thats connected by PVC pipe, now only Lily has been brave enough to venture down and so this gives her space away from her sister. Is this good enough? She does appear better for it but I will separate permanently if its best.

[Rattie Mom]

Great news! Sure sounds like an abscess to me. I've never heard of a tumor growing that fast and suddenly dissappearing. So the vet can get as defensive as he wants, unless he has a better answer?

Sounds like your girls' sister is "barbering". I've been lucky in that none of my rats have ever done it. I honestly don't know the cause, but might wonder if it was due to them being in a smaller cage. Do you bring them out for a minimum of an hour each day? They reeeeeeally need their out of cage time. I have 5 cage groups now. So it's often difficult to do out of cage time every day. They get more every other day here. I do have huge cages though...so at least they don't feel stir crazy. Still on the day they don't come out, they will sometimes show me their unhappiness by pulling up the fleece, or squabbling with their cagemates. We have some groups that just have to come out EVERYday.

Hopefully, the bigger cage will help. That's too bad that they do squabble a bit. I really might recommend trying to bring them out more. But if you already do that, hopefully the bigger cage helps.

Again, so glad to hear the lump disappeared!

[Cavy Carnage]

When you say out of cage time, do you mean just in general? They get out to play on the bathroom floor most days for 6-8 hours where they have toys, boxes, treats etc that they like to explore. If you mean handling them an hour a day I so wish! Lily loves a fuss and cuddle but Lola will try her best to jump from your hands. She is pretty shy, always been that way. I do get on the bathroom floor with them and she is fine exploring me and crawling through my hair but she hates me even stroking her most days.
The smaller cage they are in according to the guidlines will house up to 3 but I thought it was too small so now they have a large 4ft x 2ft cage that is connected by a tube though is quite steep so we added a sisal rope to help. Only Lily has managed to figure it out so Lola is stuck in the smaller cage until she is brave enough to try the tube.

[Rattie Mom]

Sure sounds like youre girls get plenty of out of cage time then. Mine could only dream of that much. And your new cage set up sounds nice a big too. I've heard barbering is a nervous thing...but that's all I can think of.

I totally understand about some ratties not wanting to be held. I just adopted three elderly boys from our local humane society. I can't believe someone would give up their ratties at the last stages of their lives. All three HATE to be picked up or even pet. They will come right up to me and give me kisses on the hands and even my face...but if I try to pick them up, they panic. Since all three also have advanced respiratory issues (they were kept on pine bedding and apparently were left untreated for lice and respiratory problems). So just to take them from their cage to the play area is tramatic. So we have to carry them in a cuddle cup to keep two of them from stressing into hard breathing fits.

I do think it sounds like you are doing everything right for your girls. It's just too bad one seems a bit more shy of the other. Hey, maybe they need another friend. A nice neutered boy would be fabulous.

By the way, I did check around with my rattie friends. No one lives near you, and couldn't recommend a good vet in your area. I will keep looking.