Bite brings kennel under scrutiny

[krittercrazy]

Fredericksburg.com - Bite brings kennel under scrutiny SOUTHWEST VA. INVESTIGATION PROMPTS NEW STATE LAW

I am glad that the new state law is already having an impact. However it is equally sad to see how differently the vet and animal control see the condition of the dogs compared to rescuers and the public that has been in the kennel.

[deborahtucker]

This is a very sad situation. Sounds like a puppy mill. There is no way that one person can properly care for that many dogs in a days time. I'm glad laws have been put in place to cut down on this overpopulating. There are too many dogs in shelters.

[5guinea5pig5]

Yes it does sound like a puppy mill.

[pigsmakemesmile]

I learned recently that breeders shot 80 dogs in their kennel when they were asked to have them treated by a vet. I live nearby them and never knew it happened. I heard about on Oprah. Seems that many breeders in PA are popular for mistreating animals. I don't understand why it is that this happens. In my opionion, animals are the true natives of the world were the dinosaurs. They don't destroy the land, and don't pollute it the way humans do. I can go on about this....sad.

[5guinea5pig5]

It's not just breeders in PA that mistreat animals. It's all over the world. Breeders kill animals even if they don't know it. Breeders are the main reason why we have shelters and why thousands of animals die from euthanasia. Breeders are the reason why shelters are full of animals. Breeders are horrible people who kill animals.

[deborahtucker]

I don't believe that all breeders are horrible people. I do believe that they have a different view of things than we do. I have met some wonderful, sweet people who happen to breed. These people take very good care of their animals, they just don't seem to think about the effect they are having on the population, or tbey believe that they are improving the breed, or breed for a specific purpose - like good herding instict. I do agree that there are and amazing amout of horrible breeders out there, but I would not say all are horrible people.

[5guinea5pig5]

I do agree some breeders are nice loving people. They just don't realize what they're doing. How can they improve the breed by making more of them? If they want to breed 2 "perfect" breeds they're just hurting the breed. If they really "love" animals then they would adopt them and not breed them.

[kavykrazy]

Herding dogs and other working type dogs need to be carefully bred to keep the working instincts intact. Therapy dogs and other helper type dogs can be adopted from shelters if they are carefully screened.

Considering that the majority of shelter dogs are large breed crossbreds(which are harder to place), the problem is mostly caused by careless owners who don't spay and neuter their pets, thereby having lots of "accidental" pregnancies.

[deborahtucker]

Thank you KavyKrazy! See my thread about unexpected puppies. I'm getting railed on for purchasing Border Collies to protect my herd. Not all dogs will do this. And these had already been proven with goats. Herd dogs are not just the training, but the natural instincts bred into them. My female was pregnant when she came home 2 weeks ago.

[krittercrazy]

Of the herding breeds, I will take the border collie as an example. You have this great livestock guardian. You breed her with another good example of a livestock guard dog. They have on average, say, six puppies per litter. How many of those six will be good livestock guard dogs. One, maybe two. What happens with the remaining four to five puppies? You can bet that 99% of them are going to homes as pets unspayed/unneutered. Or they are being dropped at the shelter. Or worse yet they are dumped on the side of the road somewhere to fend for themselves and if they survive, breed some more. Now the ones that are sent out unaltered into homes, a pecentage of those are getting bred because 1- someone thinks they can make money off of them, 2- can't afford/be bothered to get them altered, or 3- they are being rehomed already pregnant. Now you might get a few great dog owners that will get their new dog altered and trained to be a great pet.
The ones at the shelter are getting altered and found hopefully good homes or being ethanized. The ones getting dumped on the side of the road really needs no explanation. You take this one example and multiply it by the number of litters that one dog has in her lifetime. It boggles the mind, not even taking into acount her offsprings litters.

I know that these scenarios are true. Where I live there are a large number of herding dogs in the area. One veterinarian that I went to for a while bred border collies for his sheep. I don't care how good or responsible a breeder a person is or is trying to be. You have to breed a lot of dogs in order to get a few that qualify for what ever standard you are trying to reach. This is a fact!
I have found in the woods two puppies tied together dead because they went around a tree on opposite sides and couldn't figure out how to get free. And I know for a fact that they were dumped by the "best" breeders of working border collies in the area. My father brought home another border collie from this same breeder that had been left out in the freezing cold. She was actually frozen to the ground. Why was she left out? Because she didn't show the promise of being a good sheep dog. Neighbors got another collie from him as a "pet" because supposedly she couldn't get pregnant. Well she got pregnant repeatedly with the neighbors. She got pregnant twice a year having four to ten puppies that they convinced other to take and when they could sold for $50 apeace. Most of the time she was impregnated by her son. The dog was never vetted, fed crappy food (in fact had to hunt for most of her food) and bred repeatedly.

You go into a shelter in the area you will see predominantly pitt bulls /mix, hounds/mix and herding breeds/mixes. More recently with the rise of puppy mills and back yard breeders you are seeing the smaller dogs and "designer" breeds.

Do you think that the breeder cares that these things happen to the dogs born without the strong natural herding instincts?
What about you, do care that these things happen in order for you to get the dog with the "natural instincts bred into them"? How many of the puppies just born to you will have these natural instincts so that you or others will not have to work so hard on training? According to the breeders/trainers they show their "worth" before they are even weaned.

Is the suffering of the many worth gaining the few?

I had read your thread on your puppies and chose to not make a comment then as I usually prefer to leave each to their own. It is your right to buy a dog for work or pet. That is your business. However, you chose to bring the conversation over to a thread I had started and make it seem like breeding is not only a good thing, but an absolute necessity. I do not believe that. There are other ways of protecting your herd. Fencing with woven wire is one. It is what I use. Anything likely to get past that is likely to take out your border collies along with your herd. (A neighbor lost all thier chickens to a bobcat. I have seen bear in the area. Cougars have been spotted in the area. Coyotes usually travel in pack and often have domesticated dogs included.) I can tell you that neither fence nor dog is going to matter to these preditors)

[deborahtucker]

As stated before, I was desperate. I did not buy with the intention of having pups. I will not "cull out" pups that do not show the herding instinct. I have already found one good home with a lady that will have the puppy spayed. I will have a contract requiring spaying or neutering, and requiring the new owner to contact me before rehoming a dog that is not working out for them. I would bring the dog back home until I could find it another good home. Yes, I am prepared to do that.

As to the fencing, I used what I had and could afford at the time. I already had the posts, wire, and charger. The dogs were an instant decision - I know, not the best - but I needed something immediately and the price was what I could afford, much less than refencing. I do have financial considerations considering that 1. I just purchased this home 2. I am a widow raising 2 young boys alone. I'm not trying for sympathy, just stating facts. They lady I bought them from, allowed me to bring them home after writing more than one check for her to deposit over time. I couldn't do that with a fence. I will be refencing after my tax return comes in.

As I stated before, I brough mom home on Dec 23. She did NOT get pregnant in my possession! I am not the irresponsible breeder. I am someone trying to do the best I can with what I handed. At least, I'm doing what I can for these pups, and will do my best to place them in responsible homes. I am requiring vet references on anyone who wants a puppy. If these do not check out, they don't get a pup. I will not take them to our local shelter - they are terrible. I did take some of the dogs there that killed my animals, but I didn't want to keep them as stated before, I have 2 young children.

I have said all I can say. Shoot me if you want, but I'm trying to do what is right by mom and pups, and the other dog as well.

[deborahtucker]

I forgot to put this in, the thanks were for understanding that not all dogs are livestock guards or able to be trained to do that. I have known other people in the same situation the bought or adopoted a dog as a guardian, only to have that same dog kill all of their livestock. I couldn't take that risk

[krittercrazy]

I didn't say you were a breeder. I am glad that you are doing right by these puppies.

I can't help but think of what the cost is for the purchase of these dogs. If I understand you bought 2?
-That opened up a space at the breeder. She/he will now need to breed several more litters to replace those two. You proved there is a demand. She/he will cull and in general be irresponsible.
-You now have one dog unavailable to help in your desperate need to guard your livestock, she has puppies to take care of.
-Now instead of 2 additional dogs that need to be fed and vetted you have how many puppies? The puppies will need to see the vet and get started on vaccinations and deworming before they are rehomed.
-Any puppies you are not able to find a home for will cost you all thier vaccinations and altering.
-I expect that you have proof of rabies vaccinations from the breeder(hopefully they are for the dogs you actually bought). If not you have already gotten them their rabies vaccine. Otherwise when the neighbors dog attacks them and the neighbors do not have proof of rabies, yours will have to be quarrintined at your cost. A rare possibility but it could happen.
-How much will it cost when your dog/s are attacked and you have to rush them to the vet? To the after hours vet?
-How much will it cost when you have to pay for the neighbors dog that is injured by yours. Trust me it will not matter that it happened on your property.

I do understand the financial issues. I am in awe of the single parents out there. You do an incredible job. I am a singe person and have trouble making ends meet. I am renting to own my home, but am currently living on the farm where I work. Here for the most part my animals are safe. I work extra to pay for them and me to live here. Before I feel comfortable moving to my home, I have to put up fencing. There are a ton of hunting dogs roaming the area. The neighbors have sheep. I am putting up the woven wire as mentioned before. I will have to fence in the entire property. I have four horses to keep safe. I want to be able to let my four dogs out to run, but I cannot afford for them to join up with the hounds or get to the neighbors sheep. In the long run it is cheaper for me to do the fencing, but at the moment it is killing me. I do hope that things go well for you and that it gets easier.

[deborahtucker]

When I purchased these two, the breeder had no others. She stated she was getting out of breeding, that she had taken a job that kept her away from home for days at a time. I do realise the puppies will need to be dewormed regularly and vaccinated at the proper times. That will be done. I have a vet that will work with me. I used to work for him, so he knows me pretty well. Of course, I didn't know exactly what I was getting into when I brought them home. Didn't expect puppies. She had stated that the dog had been in heat, but kept away from the other one and it would be a few more months before she went into heat again, so I thought I had a little time. I did recieve proof of vaccinations on both dogs, and since she had no other Border Collies, I believe the proof is on these two.

My vet has already been consulted about these pups, especially since I am caring for the smallest, that the mother rejected. I am feeding it every 2 hours and keeping it warm.

If my dog injures a neighbors dog on my property, in SC, I cannot be held liable. We have a strong leash law here. I have spoken with Animal Control about the problem. Their advice - to buy a rifle and kill the dogs. I choose not to do that, because I don't like the idea of shooting a dog. I haven't seen but one dog on the property since bringing these two home. If one of my dogs is injured, they will go to the vet and be treated. As I said before, my vet will work with me, especially in the case of an emergency.

As I stated before, I plan to refence with my tax return which I normally get mid-February (I file as early as possible). I will be putting up 2X4 stock wire, backed up with electric (to keep the goats from climbing it). The mom and pups are currently living in my laundry room (it's big enough to be a nice-sized bedroom) so they are warm and safe. The one problem with this setup is that mom is not housebroken, so she is making quite a mess. The floor in linoleum though, so it's fairly easy to clean. I have a nice bed made up of thick old blankets in the corner. The puppies will not leave the mother any earlier than 8 weeks.