Disapointed in vice-president elect Joe Biden's support of dog breeders

[Angelgal]

Oh I can't wait to reply to this (boo for classes...)

[Angelgal]

Where do you think all of these severely mentally and genetically deficient pure breeds being dumped regularly come from? What about the purebreeds that receive no training and get dumped? How do you think they got into those homes? They were sold there. Do you think they come from outer space? They come from BREEDERS. Where do you think these "bad" breeders got their dogs or any other animal for that matter? Go ahead and trace those bloodlines some time and you will find that they all trace back to a "reputable" breeder.

First off I never said ALL breeders were good yet not ALL are bad.
I don't support ALL breeders, just FEW - the ones who truly are responsible. More information on that will be posted further down.

Just because a breeder has papered dogs (aka purebreds) does NOT make them responsible. 95% of breeders out there ARE IRRISPONSIBLE. 1% are truly responsible GOOD breeders. The other small percentage have hearts in the right place but need to up their standards just a little to hit my level of "truly responsible."

If those "reputable" breeders would get off of their butts and actually do something to protect the animals they claim to love then maybe I would have a smidgen of respect for them. Instead I routinely see them blocking valuable laws from getting passed--laws that would help keep the "bad" breeders from doing what they do and keep animals from suffering. Why are the "reputable" breeders breeding when there are dogs of their chosen type dying in shelters and chocking up rescues?

Hm as far as I'm concerned, truly responsible breeders do actually do something. Let me first tell you what my defination of a truly responsible breeder is.

A responsible breeder:
1. Has legal binding contracts. Including that the dog MUST be returned if it cannot be kept for whatever reason, then said breeder works to rehome that dog. The contract also includes spay/neutering, that said dog must be spayed/neutered by ___ age (usually long before the first heat) and proof must be proved to breeder or they reserve the right to take back the dog etc.

2. Stays in the animals life, offering advice and help to owners and gaining updates.

3. Said breeder has their dogs genetically tested and understands fully what genetic diseases occur within the breed (eyes/elbows/hips etc. etc.) and this is done so on a yearly basis. They also only breed tempermant approved dogs because they understand behaviour is genetically passed on (as well as effected environmentally). They allow you to get to know each adult dog to get an idea of what your pups tempermant would be like.

4. Females have 1-2 years if bred at all. No repsonsible breeder would plan a little until enough approved homes have been lined up, let alone actually breed and from what I consider responsbile, its not more then 1 litter per year. "Accidental" breedings do not exist to these people.

5. Dogs are home raised, not kennel kept. Pups are home raised, and habituated to sounds/experiences/every-day things. Pups do not leave before 8-8 1/2 weeks of age. A responsible breeder understands the reasoning and consequences behind this.

6. A responsible breeder doesn't breed dogs because its a business, they breed because they love that breed and want to improve it. If you put in quality care and the testing (not to mention any possible pregnancy problems) then you'd be lucky to break even after all is said and done. Many LOOSE money improving the breed, hence why to them, its not a business.

This is why any individual seeking a breeder should be fully educated themselves. Questions are asked, information is gained, then you decide if they are truly and honestly responsible.

I have not seen one truly responsible breeder yet not want situations to improve for dogs. However I guess the breeders in your local area (would love those laws to be passed locally myself) are IRRISONSIBLE, the BAD breeders. Truly responsible breeders don't care about the money, it's not a business to them - its a passion/hobby done to better the breed, NOT to make money (likes someones *my* passion for training horses).
Maybe I should mention, I have seen breeders take in dogs that weren't from a litter of theirs, just so it could be rehomed vs. letting them be dumped at the shelters. Though, their still bad people because they choose to breed to improve the breed now and then??

Blue Knight Labradors - In Defense of Dog Breeders

Stop spreading the breeder and purebred vs. mutt myths. All you manage to do is to help kill animals in shelters and increase the overpopulation.

Oh please tell me what myths I am spreading. I would LOVE to know, because it seems to me people are just putting words in my mouth and making assumptions because their oh-so-against breeding.

Though yes, I'm a murderer. I'm a murder because I support the very few rare truly responsible breeders that do exist and don't think they deserve to have their rear ends bashed by a bunch of animal rights groups (PETA)??

Yes, so forgetting the fact I DO animal rescue, I work in shelters and help find homes for animal ... yes, I kill animals. That's exactly what I do [[Sarcastic]]. You got to love when you say you support the very few truly responsible breeders on the face of the earth, that people jump the gun - say you make up myths, support the whole population of breeders and then tell you that you kill animals. LOVE that. Truly the cherry ontop of a nice day of working at the Humane Society. In my opinion, I think that scentence of yours was a little much but thankfully I don't take things too personally.

Angelgal, it seems like you don't have a lot of experience with shelters and their dogs. The majority of them, in my experience, do not have behavioral or socialization issues. They are family pets that have been abandoned. As far as lack of training, surely you can't suggest that a breeder puppy whelps knowing commands?

If a person is truly that fearful of picking a shelter dog with issues (though if they're that unknowledgable about dog issues in general, it is worrisome), they can go through a reputable rescue in the area. The rescues pull these dogs and evaluate them to make a good match. They won't give a rambunctious and bossy GSD to a meek dog owner with 3 small kids. I'm not sure what area you live in that all the shelter dogs eat children, but the rescues here have foster homes WITH children, and have plenty of dogs available that are "child tested" so to speak.

Now first off, the fact of I clearly havn't spent much time in shelters is a little offensive. Considering you don't know me, or what I do, you honestly shouldn't assume that. I'm a Veterinary Technologist student, I have classes at the humane society and I have previously voluenteered with Humane societies and other private adoption agencies.

I have got to ask, why do people like to assume things around here so much?

Now I never said that was the case for every area, did I? Noo I don't believe so ... I believe I was talking about my specific area when I was explaining why adoption may not be for everyone. Yes, the dogs at the specific humane society I'm with right now ARE tempermant tested - and in result, many require experienced owners (because of aggressions, socialization problems etc.) and many cannot be in a household with multiple pets or with children under 12-16 years of age. Where did anyone get off sayign that's exactly how ever rescue dog on the face of this planet is?? ((Though when I do a search at shelters/humane societies I see a lot of them. Even in breed-specific.))

The only dog currently available for adoption that is suitable for a first time dog owner is Baxter, a 3y/o M(N) black lab mix. Was a stray that came in with the condition Cherry Eye. Should be fine in a home with children over toddler age (this is being confirmed). He does not do well with other dogs. However would be suitable for the first-time owner if he will not be around other dogs. Otherwise an experienced owner is needed to work on his socialization. - That is the cloest you will get to a first-time dog owners dog in THIS shelter.

Then there is my boy, well I call him my boy because I WANT to adopt him but cannot. He is a year old German Sheppard mix who was surrendered because of his destruction (anxiety) when left alone and it was not something that was controllable. He is not suited for a home with kids under 12 (why I cannot adopt him) but he is decent with other animals and has some good basic training. He is being worked with. Not to mention I cannot afford the $$ in damages he would do while controlling these anxieties, not something I can personally afford.

Adoption isn't always for everyone. That's the only thing I'm saying. Though you guys seem to think I have soemthing seriously against shelter dogs? Hm.
All I'm say is don't jump the gun and bash people out and call them a killer because they didn't get a shelter dog. You do not know their reasons.
a) May need hypo-allergenic
b) Needs a dog good with young children and/or other animals (livestock, dogs etc.)
c) Mental Health problems. A shelter dog may not always be the best bet for some people experiencing those kind of problems.

Just because YOU have abandoned family pets that are PERFECT for every situation, doens't mean EVERY area does (just as I said not every area has mostly dogs that need experienced owners). That's what I'm getting at. Not every dog sitting in a shelter is suitable for every type of dog owner. And IMHO that doesn't mean that poor person should go dog-less and lonely for years just so they won't get bashed around by people like you guys for supporting a truly responsible breeder.

Until you know everyones situation and reasons, you have no right to assume or bad-mouth them. That's all I'm saying.

[VoodooJoint]

Originally Posted by Angelgal

Oh please tell me what myths I am spreading. I would LOVE to know, because it seems to me people are just putting words in my mouth and making assumptions because their oh-so-against breeding.

Here is what you said

"People also need to remember, adoption isn't for everyone. You need to find the right dog, and not everyone may be experienced enough to deal with a dog that may have behavioural problems, lack of training or socialization issues. The fact if children are involved can also be a big factor on ones choice. I put a lot of time in at the shelters here, and I want to adopt (soon) but I have a multi-pet home and am frequently around young children and this makes it hard for me to find the right dog to adopt. Am I going to be eaten alive because I cant find the "right" dog at a shelter and don't want to put my family/pets in danger with one of the ones I have fallen in love with so far and that I have considered the possibility of a breeder??"

Basically it seems like you said that shelter dogs (of all ages and types) are much more likely to have behavioural, training and socialization issues. This simply isn't the case at all. You stand as much (if not more) of a chance of getting a "messed up" breeder dog.

Some neighbors near me have gone through 3 purebred dogs that they bought from local breeders. All 3 dogs had serious issues that, granted, were exacerbated by their poor pet patenting. All 3 dogs were given away because of their behaviour (some of which was genetically inherited). The dog they have now is a ~6 year old Jack Russell stray that they picked up off the street and no owner showed up for. The dog had heartworms, retained testicles, was starving and injured and had a home done tail docking. They fixed up this dog (suspected to be a breeder dump because he couldn't father pups) and have had him for years. He is a sweet, affectionate and well behaved dog which they have found to be MUCH more to their liking (despite his initial medical needs) then any other dog they had or met. I don't agree with them dumping the other 3 dogs but they were not prepared to deal with "issues" and thought that by buying a purebred they would avoid issues and get what they paid for (a "quality" animal).

Few breeders can be described as "good" and actually meet your criteria as I'm certain you know. Many people think they find a good breeder because they just want people to have a wonderful dog like theirs and don't charge a lot (thus not in it for the money). The fact is that the "best" breeders have waiting lists for their pups that can be 1-3 years long, never breed if they have more then 3 dogs of their particular breed in their rescue ('cause if they breed they darn well better rescue too), and not only health and genetic test but also show their dogs against it's peers to insure that not only do they have a healthy dog (with a pedigree they can trace back through 7 generations--along with the ancestors' health testing results) but also a dog that truly is a good representation of it's breed with the build and temperament to accomplish what that breed is made to do.

Because all of those proper precautions are so expensive, dogs from breeders like that are very expensive--can cost into the thousands. They need to be so that the breeder can break even.

We both know that very few people are going to bother or can afford to find one of these truly great breeders and are going to settle for the "nice person" with the "cute dogs" that they saw advertised in the newspaper or found through an internet search and they have "puppies available now".

It's because of the true reality of the situation that I say not to perpetuate the myths. Despite your heart and mind being in the right place the majority of people don't retain information past "some breeders are okay".

You said yourself MOST breeders are not good. We know the fact that those "most" are the ones selling most of the animals and causing the problems. They are the ones "most" people you talk to will buy from if you say that shelter dogs can have "issues".

That is why I say that you will do more harm then good and perpetuate the problem.

[BrainDeadBuster]

I think what she meant was that a lot of dogs in the pound can have behavioral problems because they were dropped of not only because people didn't want them anymore, but because many had behavioral issues due to the lack of training the previous owners gave them, that's how they ended up there, be it house training, basic commands, not biting, whatever. Obviously if someone buys a puppy it could have genetic problems like any dog, but you are getting it BEFORE someone else may ruin it's behaviors by either not correcting it properly or abusing it. Of course adoption is the way to go, but maybe some people don't want to risk getting a dog from teh shelter that may end up issues they can't correct. It is also possible to get dogs from the shelter or foster homes (I actually had this happen to me), that pass all the tests, only to snap and try to attack a child later on. Not saying this happens all the time, but it could. I have adopted ALL of my dogs, but I do understand the hesitancy of some to go to a pound.

[VoodooJoint]

I just wanted to address these adoption issues you mentioned.

a) May need hypo-allergenic - I just had a pure bred (hypoallergenic) Yorkshire Terrier pass through my rescue--and see plenty of others on Petfinder (puppies as well). There are plenty of "hypoallergenic" dogs in rescues. It's easy enough to find one that is actually purebred. There are ways to test both the animal and the human.

b) Needs a dog good with young children and/or other animals (livestock, dogs etc.) - The millions of shelter dogs loved by children all over the world and the multitude that have been around my children are proof enough that shelter dogs are every bit as good with children as breeder dogs are.

There are at least 20 dogs that horse owners bring to the stable where my daughter rides. The majority of them are rescue dogs and they are all GREAT around the livestock. In fact it's the breeder lab and a breeder JRT (different owners) that were banned from the stable because they wouldn't behave around the horses.

c) Mental Health problems. A shelter dog may not always be the best bet for some people experiencing those kind of problems. - My tenant just took in a badly abused, one eyed, stray (rescued by my vet--I recommended the dog to my tenant). This dog was terrified of the whole world and it too a long time for her to even start trusting her owner. He took her with him to visit family. The relatives have an autistic son. The son and dog were instantly inseparable. That dog LOVED the boy and the boy started communication with the outside world because of the dog. My tenant has left the dog with the family for a month t try things out. He misses is dog terribly but at the same time he can see that the dog might have found where she is supposed to be and he couldn't separate the pair. Last I heard the match is still working wonders for boy and dog. This was a chance encounter but shelter dogs have been known for ages to be wonderful matches for people of all sorts. It just takes finding the right match and personality and even the best breeder can't guarantee personality.

Not every dog sitting in a shelter is suitable for every type of dog owner. But a breeder dog would be perfect? You can't honestly believe that.

I certainly do believe that there is a shelter dog that is perfect for each person. I don't believe every dog will fit into every home but you seem to say that if it comes from a breeder it will somehow magically fit.

I certainly do believe that you have a much better chance of finding your perfect dog at a shelter then at a breeders. At a shelter you often have your choice of hundreds of animals (with new one's taking the euthanized and adopted one's places every day). At a breeder you have your choice from maybe 8 puppies, all related.

[sophistacavy]

It doesn't matter what anyone says about defending breeders. Dogs in shelters still die every day, becuase people buy their dog instead of adopting/saving one from a shelter or rescue. That space that the person who purchased their dog used to have, is now taken up by nothing more than a business transaction. Now, the shelter dog that could've been adopted by those people will be euthanized, and rendered into dog, cat, and ferret food, collars and all. They suck the fat from them, and spray it over the finished dry product, and pour it into the top of the finished wet (canned) product.
0% waste. They are never cremated, and probably hardly ever dumped in a landfill.

A responsible breeder would turn themselves in to peta or someplace like that, and repent for their wrongdoings.
There are no excuses to breed animals. Thats just my opinion, but I feel like it is the correct one.

[Angelgal]

I appologize that its taken me so long to get back to this.

I love that people who don't even know me can jump to conculsions and say that I know nothing about shelter animals, and that all I do is help the overpopulation and murder animals etc. without knowing me or what I do.
Yes, I care about shelter animals.
I spend my time educating people on breeding (variety of species), the slaughter problem and spay/neuter facts. The first place I refer them to for a pet is the shelter. I'm spending my time trying to get better regulations IN place so irrisponsible breeding can stop. I'm participating in the 09 Strut for Strays. I spend time, outside of class, helping animals. Lets not even tough the subject of BSL. So yes, I take great offence when I am accused on this forum site of adding to the overpopulation of animals, being called a murder because I support the very few truly responsible breeders on this earth. I think some of you need to take a look in the mirror.

Just because YOU know people who may have done well, or YOU have had purebred and hypo-allergenic dogs come through YOUR shelter ... Doesn't mean it occurs everywhere, or that everyone can do it. Everyone's different - confidence, how they react, think, feel, and handle situations.

I never said a breeder dog would be perfect - but IMO not everyone is cut out for a shelter dog and I don't think those individuals need to be bashed because they seek out a GOOD breeder dog. I have no problem with shelter dogs, I sponser them. However I know many who for their own personal reasons (the information is confidential) have not done well with shelter dogs.

You're telling me that because I have severe anxiety and depression and have come from an emotionally abusive and controlling situation. Sure, I can work with these animals everyday ... enjoy it, help train them, give them the medical help they need. Yet these dogs I see I know well. No I do not feel comfortable OR confident enough to be an owner of one. And I am under no obligation to put myself, my family or show horses at risk. I'm also not afraid to say I'm not the biggest fan of puppies (destructive puppy stages).
So does it make me a murder to say that I have found a breeder who is willing to work with me to find an young-adult male dog from their, or another fellow responsible breeders program that needs rehoming?? Does it make me a murder to say that I would like a genetic-tested purebred labrador, a dog without aggressions or severe seperation anxiety?? No I don't think it does.

I have high expectations on what I consider a responsible breeder, and its those responsible people that I am trying to find as many of to get on board to stop irrisponsible breeding. http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...e-breeder.html

I am going to just come out and say it. I really dislike PETA.
While they do raise awareness to some important issues, I admit they've done some good (pigs in slaughter for food I think it was). They do just as much bad. PETA members have attacked others (on things like animals in research). PETA KILLS animals every DAY, those "rescues" of theirs? Not treated any better then other places you've claimed. YouTube - PETA Admits to Killing Thousands of its Rescues and this one, I'm researching to see if its true (YouTube - PETA Kills Animals). PETA is over extreme. They say things like animal research is torture but has anyone noticed that their "MARS KILLS" video is just their "ANIMAL RESEARCH IS TORTURE" with 3-4 text slides added in of partial information of tests being done. PETA doesn't say anything to the general public about how research is actually regulated (very detailed regulations), that every institute is inspected yearly by about 3 different levels of organizations. This is actually an issue I'd like to bring up on this forum, with proper information not misconceptions because it happenes to be a field I'm getting into.

I honestly think PETA should step down and let a less extreme organization step up. Honestly I think PETA is the ones who should be turning themselves in, not truly responsible breeders ((Though its like NO member understands the "truly responsible part" when I say it and just think typical BYB breeding dogs back-to-back in discusting kennels)).

[VoodooJoint]

Your reply is mostly just ranting and for me holds little "meat" to reply to. I have no idea why or how a PETA attack pertains to this thread.

Stick to the subject at hand or don't reply.

[sophistacavy]

Nobody ever said that you said that a purchase from a breeder would be perfect. No animal is perfect, just like no human being is perfect.

I kind of agree with you about PETA, but not 100%. I definetely think that people should pay more attention to organizations like HSUS, that are more "civilized" as you mentioned before.

I still agree, however, with VoodooJoint about "responsible" breeders. They still technically add to the pet overpopulation problem. And if someone who buys from them breaks/violates any of the terms on the purchase contract, it's not like the breeder can have them arrested or anything like that. And the breeder could just go collect the dog if they find out that some family dumped it at a shelter somewhere. Then, the dog would be safe until the breeder could find it a new home.
But, if the customer who bought the dog does actually violate some term on the contract (such as turning in the dog to a shelter), who's to say that the breeder won't find out until it's too late? If the customer knew that there was a contract that they obviously had to have signed in order to get the dog, then they certainly would not inform the breeder that they relinquished the dog at a shelter. If they purposely violated the terms, then why would they tell the breeder, you know? Like if a kid in school is going to purposely cheat on an exam, then why would they tell the teacher if they didn't want to get in trouble?

At the end of the day, even the purest, most responsible breeder in the world ultimately still adds to the current pet overpopulation problem.

If someone needs a special animal, they should be able to wait a little while until that special, furry someone shows up in a shelter or rescue. If they truly want a companion animal, then it should be worth the wait for them to hold out for that special someone.

There is no point in arguing this with anybody on here, and I reserve the right to say that because I started this thread. If any mod feels that this is turning into a useless argument, then they can feel free to close it. I, and others who think more like the way I do, like VJ, will just have to 'agree to disagree' with you.
It has also gone off the original topic of the thread. Not by much, but it still sort of did.

I'm sure that everyone can try to understand your points, but this isn't getting anyone anywhere. Its obvious that no one who has contributed to this thread is going to be successful in convincing someone to change their mind and think like them. Hence the uselessness of this going on and on and on.

I want to thank you, also, for contributing to this. Yours, along with a couple other member's posts, had very valuable information that I'm sure some lurkers took use of.

[VoodooJoint]

Because of the PETA attack this thread is also going on moderated status. No new posts will appear until they have been approved by a moderator.

[yo FOO xD]

I really hope that Barack Obama will ADOPT instead of buy, but now there is the situation of Malia's allergies and a "hypoallergic" dog. There's really no such thing as a "hypoallergenic" dog. It would be like going to a rescue and asking which dogs barely shed or adopting a short hair dog.