Pedigree dogs exposed

[charlie23]

Originally Posted by Autaven

I won't lie and say that I've never been interested in going to Crufts, all those animal lovers in the same place with stalls etc. But then you see things like this and it makes me ill.

Hi I have attend crufts to show my german sheppard fopr obidience and in my opinion the owners arent all they are cracked upto be i took my dog to classes as he is a large breed and we wanted to be able to control him. It just turned out he enjoyed it and saw it as playing so we did shows and ended up at crufts. The other owners i witnessed breed train and use there winning dogs to be able to ask for more when selling there puppies. Im not saying they are like this but the general opinion i got was once i have my trophy her/his next litter will sale for double! You will also notice that some of the dogs are trained and shown by someone else and the owners name is shown on screen when the dogs enter. The only nice bit about crufts was the rescue dog ring a little ring not mentioned much on the televised bit in which you can show your rescue dog. I would like to say that even though i brought my dog as a puppy i brought him for forty pounds from a women who kept them in a tiny kennel. So i like to think i rescued him. German sheppards are a large breed but my duke will be 11 this year and is still going strong. As a family we have rescued many german sheppards not all of them easy but we never turned one a way as we were the house to bring your out of control dog to in are area. My father has had his hand ripped apart and i have ben bitten a few times but dont all animals deserve a chance the only one that was put to sleep was the female kara who ripped my dads hand apart but only after we discovered she had a whole in the heart that couldnt be fixed. (sorry to ramble but my main point was dont pay to go to crufts its not all its cracked up to be!)

[Susan613]

I think there should be changes on how we let people breed dogs. I think if you want to be a breeder you should have to get a license. In order to breed a dog it should be examined by a vet and they will determine if this animal is suitable for breeding. If it is,they will get a some sort of health certificate which would allow them to have two litters only and that is it. I also think that there should be at 5 year of age where no more breeding is allowed and all animals at 5 years old should be mandatory spayed or neutered. I know people would get around it, but I think some sort of laws would help out in the bad breeding and the overpopulation of animals. I work for a vet and I feel really bad for some of these poor little dogs that the breeders keep making them have litter after litter and the owners thinks its just so wonderful. I feel like its not so great for the poor little dog that is having to go through c-section after c-section. They don't have that long a life as it is , I think its awful that they have to spend half of it being breeding machines.

[PixieStix]

I think right now dogs shouldn't be bred, license or not. Yes, it would be nice if you even had to get a license for owning a pet, nevermind breeding. But with all the homeless dogs (not to mention other animals) in shelter, rescues, strays, etc, it's totally irresponsible to bring more into the world.

[Cagney]

I just wanted to point out I have a Rottweiler/Lab mix that was a rescue. She has had severe hip displasia since the age of 18 months, and had her kneecap repaired at that same time as well. So not every shelter dog is going to be healthier than a purebred. But in general they are better health and temperment than a purebred.

There aren't many responsible breeders around anywhere. And there's hardly anyone who buys from a breeder that takes the time to research the breed they are purchasing. I often hear how someone's border collie is being surrendered because it's nipping at the kid's heels. Yeah they're a herding dog. Usually it's things they should have been aware of before even driving to the breeder.

Honestly I'd be hard pressed to think of one certain breed that is bred to do a certain job that couldn't be done by a mixed breed. I'm sure there is a few breeds that it is important. But generally speaking search and rescue, therapy, service and police dogs can be mixed breeds and often do the exact same job a purebred can that was bred specifically for that job.

I hold working dogs and show dogs in two very very seperate catagories, and their breeders as well. The dogs that work, are actually bred to serve a specific purpose. Show dogs are bred for looks and as you can see from this heartbreaking video what the results of line breeding and breeding just for looks gets the dog. Usually nothing but misery for that dog, and countless other dogs dying in a shelter because someone wanted a "purebred".

[PixieStix]

Originally Posted by Cagney

There aren't many responsible breeders around anywhere. And there's hardly anyone who buys from a breeder that takes the time to research the breed they are purchasing. I often hear how someone's border collie is being surrendered because it's nipping at the kid's heels. Yeah they're a herding dog. Usually it's things they should have been aware of before even driving to the breeder.

Honestly I'd be hard pressed to think of one certain breed that is bred to do a certain job that couldn't be done by a mixed breed. I'm sure there is a few breeds that it is important. But generally speaking search and rescue, therapy, service and police dogs can be mixed breeds and often do the exact same job a purebred can that was bred specifically for that job.

I hold working dogs and show dogs in two very very seperate catagories, and their breeders as well. The dogs that work, are actually bred to serve a specific purpose. Show dogs are bred for looks and as you can see from this heartbreaking video what the results of line breeding and breeding just for looks gets the dog. Usually nothing but misery for that dog, and countless other dogs dying in a shelter because someone wanted a "purebred".

I think both of these are very good points. It's sad how the Border surrender rate is so high, people buy these adorable, sweet little puppies who grow up and need EXERCISE, every day, and lots of it, plus will try to herd and nip. Any research on this breed will show they are high energy, herding dogs, but people impulse buy and the breeders don't screen or quiz the new owners.

I agree with your PB vs mixed breed statement. I was watching an agility demo today, many dogs were PB, but there were also a lot of rescue or shelter dogs who excelled at it (not to mention would do herding or obediance or flyball on the side). They don't need to be a fancy purebred to be a great animal.

[i-love-nev]

I don't know if this has been said already as I havnt red all of the posts.

A while ago, I can't remember who it was but somebody had a runt puppy off of a breeder, the dog ended up ill and she said that she would never buy off of a breeder because of health problems. I was sitting here laughing at what I had just read (about not buying from a breeder), because the fact of the matter is EVERY DOG HAS COME FROM A "BREEDER", (ie. Whether it was intentional, an accidental litter, a feral dog that got dumped and pregnant, a dog that was dumped at a breeder pregnant) just because they are in a rescue center dosent mean they wernt bred, what, do they fall out the sky? oh, is that where the "Its raining cats and dogs" saying comes from? Whether you buy from a breeder or adopt from a rescue they will all have a chance of health problems. Sometimes people want to know where the dog is from, who the parents are and what the parents are like, just like I want a dog for hunting when I am older, like a GSpointer, Viszla or Brittany to work along side my Birds Of Prey in the field, I will probably check out a few breeders, no saying I will get one from them, but I will check it out. I want to know where my dogs come from, what her parents are like and if they have worked alongside other dogs and birds in the past.

[charlie23]

I would like to say in response to the above post. That a puppies parents and family back ground makes little or no difference to how the dog is going to be when it grows up 90% of that is down to the owner and the way they treat and train there pet/ working dog. For example if a dog has lovely praents but is then mistreated by its new owner it will turn nasty to protect its self. And if a dogs parents where good working dogs that doesnt garentee there puppies will be.

[crazywiggy]

I do think people need to consider "nurture" as well as "nature" and not simply blame everything on breeders because we don't like them, or purebreeds because we don't approve.

We know that purebreeds suffer from a variety of health problems. Some of these are strictly a breed issue (e.g. like the short faces in bulldogs etc) that simply do not occur when random dogs are mated.

Other health concerns, such as hip dysplasia, are found in a variety of dogs - including mixes. Incidences tend to be higher in purebreeds because of the level of inbreeding, reduced genetic variation etc.

I do believe it is fair to say that "mongrels" tend to be healthier than "purebreeds", simply because they are unlikely to have any of the extreme physical characteristics, and the lack of inbreeding means the chances of other problems are lower.

However, mongrels can also suffer from hereditary diseases - and I think this is particularly true of direct crosses. For example, a common cross in the UK is the German shephered cross border collie. Since both of these breeds suffer from HD even these mixed breeds have a high chance of suffering from it.

So not every shelter dog is going to be healthier than a purebred. But in general they are better health and temperment than a purebred.

Not necessarily - I assume this does not consider the amount of purebreeds that end up in rescue?

As Nev points out - ALL dogs originally came from a breeder - whether a top breeder of papered purebreeds, a puppy farm or just some moron who bred their dog to their mates dog to get some cute puppies.

Until ALL breeders start doing health checks (yes even for mutts) hereditary diseases will continue to be a problem.

[frashy]

Originally Posted by i-love-nev

A while ago, I can't remember who it was but somebody had a runt puppy off of a breeder, the dog ended up ill and she said that she would never buy off of a breeder because of health problems. I was sitting here laughing at what I had just read (about not buying from a breeder), because the fact of the matter is EVERY DOG HAS COME FROM A "BREEDER", (ie. Whether it was intentional, an accidental litter, a feral dog that got dumped and pregnant, a dog that was dumped at a breeder pregnant) just because they are in a rescue center dosent mean they wernt bred, what, do they fall out the sky?

I think what they ment is that they are going to stop supporting breeding, because of the ignorance people have with breeding, which cause a dog to have certaint health issues because of the poor breeding.

It's exactly like saying "I'm not buying a guinea pig from a breeder/petstore again!" Well, that makes sence, because Guinea pigs from breeders ARE more likely to be sick, less healthy, than a pig who is at a rescue and has been actually checked by a vet.

I see what you are saying. It does not mean there arn't genetic issues with dogs that are in shelters, but it is likely they won't have problems that are if not allready healed, but healable. Some things in genetics are not healable.

My parents bought a purebred "beagel" from a breeder, which she turned out to have serious genetic problems, and had to be put down because her digestive system was terribley messed up, and was incureable. She did not even look like a normal dog, you could see the deformaties within just how she was formed. She looked like how a disabled person, or a lethal would look, but was a dog. She was the result of an ignorant backyard breeder.
We also found out that she wasn't a purebreed, but was mixed with an english setter. We knew this because I was friends with the previous owner who owned the english setter.

[Myspoiltpiggies]

I watched that with my family. My mum has said she would love a little dog. I kept on telling her do not get from a breeder and she then tells me she wants a certain breed though and she wants it to be a puppy - I tried explaining to her this is possible from a rescue!! Hopefully watching that program has changed her mind.
Back when I was 7 my parents decided to breed our dalmatian. We had a litter of 7 purebred puppies. We kept one - one of the two girls. She has allergies (affecting her paws & ears) which from reading up on the Internet, seem to be genetic.

I have been dying for a pug. After watching this program - it really made me see what they are. Everytime I see a pug now I just feel sadness at the way humans have mutilated its nose.

[charlie23]

A common cross breed in the uk is a stafishire bull terrier cross a labador to make a dog similar in look size and strength to a pit bull as you cant keep pit bull terriers in the uk without a lincence. So therefore you are breeding two pure breds and getting two sets of problems but still a mongrel. I dont think there is much you can do! As i said in a previous post it is down to nuture for the temperment of a dog but we cant stop nature and there will always be an issue of breeded problems because its going way back before most of are times that the problems were being continuely ignored whilst breeding,

[TwinkieSlug]

I have purebred dogs, and a mutt. When I was looking for a borzoi I got recommendations for a good breeder. I met his mom, some cousins, and his dad (at a show). Borzoi's are a giant breed, many don't live very long. `My dog's breeder had an 11 and 12 year old that looked great for their age, and several of his relatives are lure coursers. My zoi is going on 7 and very healthy. His mom made it to 13. I have a 10 year old Whippet who still kicks ass at flyball, again from a well known highly recommended breeder. And my mutt is a great dog too.

What I'm trying to point out is that not all purebreds are disasters, it's the dumbasses who get a purebred without researching the breeder who get the lemons. BUT on top of that, it's up to the owner to help avoid health problems by keeping their dog lean and fit. I see tons of pugs that can barely breathe but they are obese. It is very sad. I know the flat face is part of it but the issue is totally compounded by the obesity. I know a pair of pugs that do flyball, they are lean and well exercised. I agree pure breds are more prone to genetic health issues but this is perpetuated by the people who pay lots of money to a crappy breeder then make it worse with obesity. (And why would someone spend so much money on a purebred, bought for looks, and then let it get flabby and fat???)

I don't know what the solution is. It's hard to penalize the crap breeders who are making the money without hurting or stopping the good breeders who can't afford high priced breeder or intact dog licences. Especially the rare breeds. Many of the health issues would be avoided if people took better care of their dogs, where ever they got them from.

[frashy]

Well, thing is, if a breeder is making money off what he is doing, he's back yard breeding. It means their number one reason they are breeding, is the money. Dog breeders, who breed the right way, will NOT make any money. In fact, that goes for pretty much ANY type of breeder.

[PixieStix]

Originally Posted by i-love-nev

Sometimes people want to know where the dog is from, who the parents are and what the parents are like, just like I want a dog for hunting when I am older, like a GSpointer, Viszla or Brittany to work along side my Birds Of Prey in the field, I will probably check out a few breeders, no saying I will get one from them, but I will check it out. I want to know where my dogs come from, what her parents are like and if they have worked alongside other dogs and birds in the past.

I find this concerning, you are an animal activist (and I believe vegetarian?) but have plans to hunt and kill animals in the future?

[crazywiggy]

Twinkie - I agree that it is possible to get well bred, healthy purebred dogs, from responsible breeders. Aside from the massive overpopulation problem (which is why I personally will not buy from any breeder) I have no problem with the people who are specifically trying to improve the health of the breed.

The problem is these "responsible" breeders are so few and far between. And they face hurdles every step of the way.
The Cavalier breeder featured on this programme who wanted to deal with syringomyelia is despised by the entire breed community. The GSD breeders trying to breed healthy, physically sound dogs are never going to do well in shows when the judges are placing the dogs with the most excessive sloping spines.

I do think part of the problem (as with most animals welfare issues) comes down to a combination of education and caring enough about the issue.

The majority of people who buy a purebreed puppy know nothing about hereditary diseases, inbreeding, health testing schemes etc. They unwittingly buy unhealthy dogs from crap breeders - paying these breeders to continue the abuse.
The few people who know much about dogs research their chosen breed, and select breeders who do all the appropriate tests etc.
But while the crap breeders still make money by taking shortcuts, pedigree dogs will continue to be crippled.

This is where education comes in. The more people who are aware of the problems, and have a basic understanding of hereditary diseases, the less customers there will be for the crap breeders.

Of course the other problem is convenience. Sadly, most people are too lazy to do the research they need to on their breed, or on the breeders themselves. They want the cheapest pup they can get, or the nearest one. Most people don't want to ask the breeder lots of questions and be prepared to walk away from those cute puppies if they don't get the right answers. And even more don't like being asked questions and assessed for suitability themselves (which a good breeder does).

It's hard to penalize the crap breeders who are making the money without hurting or stopping the good breeders who can't afford high priced breeder or intact dog licences.

This I don't agree with. The money should not be an issue. I personally feel a breeders licence should be like the driving theory test.
The breeders should have to pass a test to demonstrate their knowledge of dog breeding, genetics, care, health etc. They pay the one off fee for the licence - it needn't be too expensive. The crap breeders generally won't bother because they don't care about learning about dogs, and can't be bothered to take a test. The truly good, responsible breeders would probably welcome the idea.

I also do not see why certain health tests can't be mandatory. Quite frankly, if a breeder can't afford to get health tests done they should not be breeding at all!

I'm also interested in your comments about how a dog is caerd for affecting its health. I completely agree this can make a lot of difference. Proper diet, plenty of exercise, keeping the dog fit etc are basic requirements that all dogs should be getting.

Many of the health issues would be avoided if people took better care of their dogs, where ever they got them from.

But the issue here (the one this programme is about) is genetic health. If your dog has inherited horrendously bad hips, PRA, or deafness as a result of being bred from unhealthy parents no amount of quality food or exercise is going to make much difference.

I fully believe that the people who either can't or won't put in the time, money and effort to breed only healthy animals are the ones who should not be breeding at all.

And (rare breeds aside) think of the effect that this could have on overpopulation...

Bring in a breeders licence linked to a test, and make health testing mandatory. The "good" breeders won't be affected much as they are already knowledgable and doing the tests. Many of the crap breeders (BYBs, mills etc) will give up because its too much hassle and money.
The results... the health of pedigree dogs gets better instead of worse, and fewer dogs being bred means less dying in shelters. Sounds pretty good to me.

[TwinkieSlug]

In California there is a bill 1634 that so far has not passed. My understanding is that the gist of the bill is to require all dogs to be spayed and neutered. To keep an intact dog there would be a high fee per dog per year, plus to get that license for your dog to be intact, the dog needs to be pedigreed and go to a minimum number of (conformation) shows per year. A dog done showing wouldn't be able to be kept as a breeder because it would have to be neutered. (maybe collecting semen on the males would avoid that issue?) I don't think the bill addresses health at all. My Borzoi breeder said she wouldn't be able to afford to keep any intact dogs if the bill passes. Then there's the breeds that are either working breeds or are not yet accepted by the AKC for conformation. My friends breed Silken Windhounds, race them (California style- no abuse) and UC Davis has genetic information on every dog. Pets are all sold spayed/neutered, the breeders keep track of even the pet dogs to watch for future genetic issues they should know about that may pop up in the breed. These are beautiful, fast, and healthy dogs with nice temperments, but they are not bred for conformation. The breed would be extinguished or at least have to move out of California. My whippets are from racing background, they come from good breeders but these breeders don't do conformation.

Meanwhile my horrid neighbors were breeding their non socialized pit bulls that live on chains in their yard. Fortunately that came to an end when animal control had to get the evil male out of my yard with a cattle prod and tranq gun. It was his second escape which = mandatory neuter.

Animal control in my area and in other areas would in no way be able to enforce any anti-breeding laws if they can't even ensure all dogs are licensed. If it wasn't for my neighbors' pit getting caught by AC, they'd probably still be a pit puppy mill as they would be unaware of the existence of those dogs.

It would be so ideal if there was a breeder's test, and especially a pet owner's test. With the exception maybe of the Animal Controls shown on Animal Planet, AC's tend to be very poor leading to few officers, which have to prioritize between urgent dangerous dog issues vs patrolling around for potential breeders.

I certainly acknowledge the horrid pet overpopulation issues, I just wish there was a way to deal with it without ending the breeding of ALL dogs. I don't know the answer, but if all breeding were to come to an end, I'd go to the effort of getting a well bred dog from another state or Europe. While mutts are great, for me there is nothing like seeing my sighthounds at a full run. My family has had many of these dogs, 1/2 adopted, 1/2 from good breeders. I don't want to see them disappear.

[crazywiggy]

I agree with you.
I have no problem at all with pedigree dogs, because the predictability makes it easy for people to match their new dog to their circumstances.
Before we got our current dog (nearly 12 years ago) we considered adopting a rescue mutt, but finally decided to get a bichon frise. This wasn't based on appearence, but practicalities. (Space and time, allergies etc). At the time we didn't know about bichon rescue so we went to a breeder. Now, if I decided to get a pedigree dog I would go straight to rescue.

I also have no problem with mutts. Limiting breeding to pedigrees only seems insane to me - because I believe breeding should be done for health and temperament, not just for a registration paper and show ribbons.

I disagree with the California bill for lots of reasons like this. It would eradicate mutts, penalises the good breeders as much as the bad ones, and would do very little for dog health or overpopulation.

A tested breeders licence would not need to be so prescriptive and could apply to all dogs (inc mutts). Make it mandatory that people who do not have the licence must neuter their pets, so you don't have to charge for every un-neutered animal. Personally I would also like to see a limit on the number of animals bred anyway, to prevent the mass breeding found in mills.

I don't think it would be that hard to enforce either. Doing a basic search on the net or through free ads would bring up people advertising puppies. If they can't show a licence, arrest them.

It's something I have written to the UK governement about in great detail, explaining all the benefits etc. Sadly no one is interested....

[i-love-nev]

Originally Posted by PixieStix

I find this concerning, you are an animal activist (and I believe vegetarian?) but have plans to hunt and kill animals in the future?

I wouldn't call my self an "Animal Acitivst" (depends what your definition is) nor am I an Anti. or a Tree Hugger. The dog *actually* does not hunt. The dog is used to point and flush, not *hunt*.

What I meant by wanting to know if the dogs parents had hunted alongside birds etc. was not me suggesting a dog passes on its tempermant or character but, a dog that does not fear nor attempt to kill a bird will carry this on with the pups (and, alot of hunters/falconers/austringers look for different things in a dog then a show exhibitor or breeder would, we look for a fearless dog, long legged, good instinct, good nose and breathing, and a broad "triangle" body) have you ever watched this kind of process?

Firstly the bird will be put on a T or Ring perch, the pups will be let out with the mother and father (if the father is available), as the parents know the bird isnt a threat, nor a bad thing. If her pups do go to chase/play with/kill the bird she will nip him to punish him, the parents do most of the training with the birds, not the owner. There really isnt much the owner can do as in this kind of training, same as with cats and house rabbits, a dog will take on a good respect from being trained by a "good" dog, a pup is more likely to be reckless and out of control by a "bad" dog.

I, personally, prefer Mutt dogs, but if I was to have one as something other then a pet I would want a dog bred specifically for that purpose, ie. a pointer naturally points, a spaniel naturally retrieves, a jack russel naturally "rats" and a brittany serves retrieveing well.

[charlie23]

[quote=i-love-nev;382031]
If her pups do go to chase/play with/kill the bird she will nip him to punish him, the parents do most of the training with the birds, not the owner. There really isnt much the owner can do as in this kind of training,

Your saying that an owner cant do much in this kind of training, but someone had to train the first dogs not to kill the bird so there is plenty an owner can do im not saying they cant learn from the parents. But its also not something that couldnt be taught to a puppy or young cross breed is it!

[lmarieaa]

I have a personal story regarding the horrors of pedigree pups:

My Golden Retreiver, so lovingly named Prozak, was rescused at a very young age from a neglectful breeder selling the so-called "pedigree puppies". I brought Prozak home at about two months old from the golden retriever rescue that had taken him in, and i was well aware that he would be a medical handful. At a checkup at 3 months of age, he was diagnosed with hip dysplasia and had a Triple Pelvic Osteotemy on that hip. The surgeon examined an x-ray of the other hip, and told me that the future of it was unknown. At about 8 months old, he developed SEVERE allergies. It got so bad he lost all of his hair and skin would crack and bleed. He has monthy shots to control his allergies, as they do not completely cure them, he still needs his medicated baths twice a week.

Prozak is now 5 years old. A few months ago he had a total hip replacement on his other hip. He is still recovering. His allergies still plague him from time to time, but he has a good amount of hair grown back this year. His surgeon is one of the best in the united states, and i am glad i went with him. he is very honest about Prozak's future. I have spent problably over $10,000 in surgeries and vet care for him, not including the allergy panels and his treatments. I would do anything for this dog. Hes the kindest spirited, calm, and sweetest boy you could ever meet. And despite his medical issues, he is very happy.

I am very scared of what is to come in the future. Prozak has all of the typical golden retriever aliments. I am terrified of a cancer diagnosis. Hopefully he will get lucky, and he will live the rest of his life as happy and as heathy as he can be.