The illegal smuggling is cruel and out of control. There is a large and lucrative market for endangered species that would be better off in the wild or in protected and specialized breeding programs instead of in someone's private collection or at a breeder's house to be used to make money.
Feds: Lizards hidden in hollow leg - CNN.com
I have to agree.... When I was at college we had a visit to the animal holding centre at Heathrow Airport where they hold all the illegally smuggled animals. There were literally hundreds of tiny baby reptiles, mostly snakes and chameleons. So sad...
While I agree that illegal and cruel situations such as this story need to be stopped (not only to preserve the animals in the wild but also for disease control purposes) it's completely unfair to lump all reptiles in when you say herps shouldn't be pets. The larger guys I might agree with you (large pythons, poisonous reptiles, large lizards), but the rest- they are great little guys. There are many species that make wonderful pets that have been in captive bred for generations. For example- I don't think there has been a wild leopard gecko imported in decades. I don't know what I would do without my geckos. I love them so much. And considering how many of the little guys are bred every year and how few are in shelters (thousands and like 10 on petfinder nationwide) it seems that most people would agree with me.
Just because they're not on Petfinder doesn't mean they're not out there. Do a search for reptile rescues online.
The reptile rescue near me is always packed with all kinds of herps, but mostly iguanas. People don't realize that no, they won't stay tiny, and no, they do not make good pets for kids. They get to be 6 feet long and can give a powerful, slicing bite.
I agree that the importation needs to stop. Captive breeding is possible, just way more expensive. Most pet shop iguanas are wild-caught, and it's not like they're rare. Some herps make excellent pets, but you really should not be able to purchase monitors, large boids, large pythons, iguanas, or other big, dangerous herps without some kind of permit.
I take your point Alusdra - my main concerns are wild caught animals, particularly those that get smuggled in illegally, and poor care by people who get them without knowing how to look after them properly. I feel the same way about breeding reptiles as I do about other animals - only by responsible breeders who carefully vet new owners, and never when there is a problem with overpopulation.
Reptiles are not domesticated. Keeping reptiles as pets makes as much sense as keeping a tiger. They are both wild animals and unsuitable as pets. Just because a leopard gecko or ball python is unlikely to eat you (as a tiger might) does not mean it is a good idea to have them as pets.
You may be in love with your geckos. You may take great care of them but I guarantee you that they would be happier in the wild. They do not develop affections or loyalty for their owners. The best you can hope for is conditioning towards you. Just because they accept their confinement does not mean that they enjoy their lives.
One of the reasons you do not see a lot of reptiles (especially lizards) in rescue is because most die at the hands of their owners or are released into the "wild".
The vast majority of lizards die within a few months of being in their new homes due to ignorance and/or neglect. For every one lizard/reptile/amphibian that lives in a good home with a truly proper cage environment (large, correct heating, lighting, humidity with proper natural stimulus and appropriate food/feeding schedules) there are hundreds, if not a thousand or more, that are ill kept.
The poor owners far outweigh the good ones. It is not fair or kind to these animals to allow them to keep being exploited. Surely you too could jump on the animal welfare bandwagon and do all you can to end this suffering (and the suffering to prey by ignorant owners who insist on feeding live).
If you truly take proper care of your reptiles I'm certain you could get proper licensing to keep them once the laws are changed to help these animals. If not then wouldn't you be willing to do without geckos if that meant easing the suffering of thousands more in the pet trade that are being bought as novelties and neglected?
Animals that were born wild should definitely remain that way. It saddens me to think of people taking animals out of their habitats to sell them or keep them. It seems really selfish. I know some people that have smuggled snakes and a couple of monkeys even from South America (I dont' know them personally, they are my therapist's sons). This was a long time ago so it was fairly easy for them to get through customs.Originally Posted by VoodooJoint
I would think with increased security at airports people would be deterred from continuing to do this, but I guess not.
Come on werent all animals at one point of there exsitence wild, but through time over years and breeding they were domesticated? Also you say that they would be happier in the wild? samething could be said about guinea pigs or rabbits or any "domesticated" animal. Able to live the way they want and have freedom, domesticated animals have become conditioned over the years to being cared for by humans.
Last edited by Percy's Mom; 09-26-07 at 12:44 pm. Reason: fixing quote
Ouch VJ.
Geckos most certainly do develop affection for their owners! They will come when they are called, enjoy chin rubs and will curl up in the crook of your neck and take a nap while you're studying or watching TV or whatever. They'll also take food from your hands sometimes. It is very easy to take care of a leopard gecko- as soon as we can get the knowledge out there not to put them on a sand substrate (grr- leads to impaction) there will be no real hang-ups for these little guys. They make great pets. I think better pets than rodents do, so far as care and needs are concerned (geckos are easier).
I think it is two separate issues between the big guys like iguanas (few people can/ are willing to take care of them properly) and the dangerous snakes versus the little reptiles and amphibians. It's also a different issue when you're talking about catching animals from the wild. You should have a permit for the big guys, and you should not import from the wild... but there are domesticated geckos, so far as you can define that term, anyway. Most of the morphs now would not survive in the wild (lack of camouflage) and I don't think they would be happier in the wild, anyway.
It's really hard to not care for a gecko properly. Forgot to feed it today? No problem. Haven't cleaned the cage in a week? Don't need to. If I could only have one pet, it would probably be a gecko. Not a dog, cat, bird, whatever. They are great pets and certainly are affectionate.
PS- feeding live is cruel to the reptile, too, done incorrectly. That is, anything older than a pinky mouse and leaving crickets in the cage or mealworms unsecured as they will attack the reptile. But I see no problems with feeding mealies and crickets live, especially as many lizards will not eat anything pre-killed.
Sorry if I got a little heated- but imagine someone saying that guinea's don't show affection (which I'm sure you've heard, anyway) and that's basically the reaction I'm feeling right now.
Yes, all animals originated from wild animals however there is a big difference between wild animals being kept as pets and domesticated animals.
What is the difference between a tiger born in the wild and one that is born in captivity even after 12 generations? There is no tangible difference. Show me the difference between a captive ball python and one that lives in the wild, or geckos or anoles or rat snakes, etc... There is no difference. They remain true to their original, wild, form and function.
Unlike snakes and lizards I bet you could show me real differences between wild guinea pigs/rabbits and domesticated guinea pigs/rabbits. You could do the same with wild cats/dogs and domesticated cats/dogs. That is what I mean by domesticated. They are animals that have been changed so drastically by humans that they no longer resemble their wild cousins except in the most fundamental ways.
I personally don't think it's love. I believe it's conditioning. Most wild animals can be conditioned. I have conditioned many wild animals myself. As a child I had wild rabbits, racoons, birds and ducks that would come running when I called and would caper excitedly about me, some even allowed me to touch them, all because I brought them food and spent the time to condition them to my presence and what my calls meant to them. Did they love me or feel affection for me? No. They knew that I brought them food. That was the limit of their affection.
Then it really is sad that so many die within weeks, if not days, of being bought. I personally do not care if Geckos are as easy to care for as a pet rock. They are a wild animal, unchanged from their wild counterparts, and do not belong in captivity.
Sorry, you will find me ignorant as far as "morphs". I do feel it very troubling that humans are meddling with these animals to this extent though. It's not unlike other species , in my opinion (like skinny pigs or satin pigs), and I feel that genetic problems are quickly going to start arising.
Yes it is, I failed to point that out.
I can understand feeding invertebrates live but I have a real problem with people feeding pinkies and fuzzies. It seems beyond cruel to me to take a helpless, usually hairless, baby from it's mother, toss it shivering and starving into a cage with a predator that will usually eat it whole and alive.
Like I said, I;m sure you love your geckos and it sounds like you care for them well and I wish you, and them, a long and happy life together. My problems lie with the very industry that breeds and sells these fragile creatures (mostly to children and as novelties/impulse buys). As I said before; far more end up in very poor homes then in good ones.
I'm not going to go into much detail or argue or add my opinions, but do you concider it cruel that I own two normal(non-morph I think they are if they are normal???) Ball-pythons? I get why smuggling is bad but owning reptiles as pets in general?
well there is no point to argue about this because you will never agree that a reptile of any kind can actually "love" a human.
I totally agree with the smugling of reptiles, and i wont argue and cant argue about that.
Are there any studies or other reading regarding reptiles and affection versus conditioning? I'm genuinely quite interested to find out more
I think that, as guinea pig owners, we tread on a slippery path of animals who don't "love" us. Most of us condition our guinea pigs to tolerate us, or to tolerate us touching them.
I don't think love or affection defines whether it's cruel or kind in keeping an animal as a pet. In my experience my guinea pigs don't feel much, if any, affection towards me. I feel that they tolerate me and are pleased to see me because I bring them food, treats and am kind to them. The difference is that GPs are domesticated.
I'm not saying it's cruel to own reptiles and amphibians. I have a rescue ball python myself. Despite being well and properly cared for I know that she would be happier in the wild. She is not domesticated. She is conditioned to me, she tolerates her captivity but she retains all of the necessary skills, form and function of a wild animal (unlike a GP).
I'm not saying that everyone should get rid of their reptiles. It's rather like skinny pigs in my eyes. I don't feel that those that exist should be exterminated. I feel that the breeding must stop and the eventual dying out of these particular animals should be allowed (for their own sakes).
The pet trade in wild animals must stop. That goes for both wild caught and captive bred. This goes past reptiles although reptiles are one of the biggest, species specific, groups to use an example. I believe that wild cats and wild cat/domestic cat crossbreeds as well as wolf and wolf/dogs, sugar gliders, raccoons, squirrels, short tailed opossums, etc... should not be pets. I'm not species specific at all.
Sugar gliders may make great pets and live long, happy lives in captivity with good care. However, far more suffer and die (like lizards) then are well cared for simply because they are wild animals that have very specific needs that the average pet owner is not prepared to accommodate. In general, they are not happy or comfortable in captivity and I feel it is cruel to keep allowing the pet industry to exploit these animals because humans want a novelty pet.
Keep the pets you already have and love but please do something to stop the suffering of more of these animals. If you truly love your animals you will want to act as a representative for them. I'm having a hard time understanding why this is such a foreign idea. Most of us here agree that GP breeding is foolish with the overpopulation and neglect problems. Why doesn't that ideal also cover wild animals? Why is it okay for reptiles and amphibians to be sold in generic petshops?
Also, if you don't think that there is any chance your reptiles were wild caught then think again. My rescue Ball Python was most likely a wild caught, illegally imported snake despite the fact that they breed readily in captivity. Wild catching/illegal import is often cheaper and more lucrative then keeping reptiles in ideal breeding conditions and raising them in captivity. Petshops do not check out the origins of the animals they sell. They go for the lowest buying price so they can get maximum mark-up. This often means either illegal import or poor breeding conditions, just like most other animals, which in turn means (either way) that you are supporting a cruel industry.
HowietheGreat (10-12-07)
I have to agree with VJ here. I have no problem with keeping domesticated animals as pets as these animals have become adapted, through selective breeding, to be accustomed to life in captivity and can be kept (when in good conditions) without causing them any suffering.The pet trade in wild animals must stop. That goes for both wild caught and captive bred.
I do not think many people have the time, knowledge, experience, money, space or motivation to keep non-domesticated species in truly good conditions. I can see no reason for keeping wild animals except for their allure as something different and exotic. (Of course I have no objection to people rescuing such animals already in the system).
I would happily support a ban on keeping any animals as pets except those already considered domesticated.
You are being totally unfair. You can't compare rescued guinea pigs with reptiles from pet shops! It's a given here on this site that animals are not taken care of properly in pet stores, and that pet stores do not give accurate information about these animals when selling them. That's why they die soon after being purchased! Not because they are inherently unsuited to being pets. Why you would think this true of guinea pigs but not geckos is beyond me.
And saying that a wild animal is only 'conditioned' to 'tolerate' people versus 'domestic' animals? Is that what you are saying? I mean, how can we even define how we love, much less how animals love. Maybe I 'love' my parents because they give me toys and food. I'm just 'conditioned' to 'accept their presence' when they come and visit me? No way! I'm going to just leave it there, because I don't know what else I can say to convince you that my geckos and I love each other and are happy together.
Leopard geckos especially are very different than their wild counterparts. I know that most people are against breeding in general, but I'm not animal rights enough to think so. Every gecko breeder I've ever met educates their customers to proper care and is very responsible. Most if not all take in 'adoption only' (ie- having some problem to make them not breedable like a genetic condition) animals and keep them for the entirety of their potentially 20+ year life. Regardless of the reason- I can't find any geckos in rescues- and I've looked. Thus your two premises for saying breeding is wrong are refuted- there is no overpopulation and animals sold from breeders are not neglected (so far as anyone can confirm that- even shelters with extensive background checks can not guarantee).
Therefor- I see nothing wrong with breeding of leopard geckos (as the species nearest and dearest to my heart- I would also add corn, king, rat and similar sized constrictors, other fat-tailed gecko species, and some amphibians). And as a final note:
wild (normal) leopard gecko (note- this is a pet wild type, not one actually in the wild, as I couldn't find a picture of that easily. Most leopard geckos today are not 'wild-type'- you have to search hard to find one and most are over 5 years old, many over 10):
my personal favorite morph (engima):
And then you look at a wild guinea pigs- not all that different. Especially as compared to a golden agouti or one of those Teddy breeds. In fact, in many circles, cavies, most rabbit species, certainly most birds (except I think some kinds of finches, canaries and budgies), most fish and rodents kept as pets are not considered 'domesticated'. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Maybe it's just the animal rights beliefs between us, but I have no problem with many exotics kept as pets. I DO disagree with importation and I DO disagree with anyone except for zoos and/or very highly qualified and experienced people keeping large constrictors, poisonous species, large macaws, cockatoos, large cats, wolves, etc. These animals can kill or seriously maim people and/or easily be neglected. But I object strongly to grouping the little guys in with these obviously dangerous and inappropriate species.
I think one of my problems with exotic pets is the lack of care info. Animals like mice, piggies, dogs and cats etc have been around people for many years - and we have learned a lot about their needs. Even so we are still learning, and there is still plenty of room for improvement in terms of normal standards of care.
With exotics, such info is minimal. Very little work has been done to determine how best to keep these animals. A lot of the info out there is only very basic and in many cases incorrect.
The difference between domesticated and non-domesticated animals is how well than they cope in captivity. I admit I do not know enough about reptiles (sentience, intelligence etc) to know how much they suffer in captivity, and what constitues inadequate care. Perhaps some species, bred for many generations in captivity, could be considered partially domesticated?
Certainly with mammalian species, domestication takes hundred, if not thousands of years. Simply being born in captivity is not enough to make them suitbale for life as a pet. Take a captive bred tiger. It may never have been wild itself but it still has the same instincts and desires as a wild tiger. It has not been selectively bred to socialise with people (and this alone takes many generations). It still wants the same size territory, still wants to hunt for food, etc.
To be fair - I have seen various species kept in captivity or as pets that do not seem to be suffering and affectionate towards their carers.
I am interested in the affection versus conditioning debate - I don't think we can ever really know the difference. Take cats - they have been domesticated for thousands of years, selectively bred to be human companions etc. Yet a cat will up and move out and live with the neighbours if it decides they feed it better. Love? Perhaps not - maybe the cat just knows what side its berad is buttered. Even dogs - perhaps the most domesticated species of all and renowned for their loyalty. Loyalty my left nostril!!! Dogs usually settle into a new home very quickly, will go to other people for food or affection etc. It is certainly hard to tell the difference between an animal that enjoys attention for the sake of it, and one that is doing for because it thinks it will get something out of it.
I didn't mean to offend anyone with my comments. Perhaps I should have said that I believe MOST non-domesticated animals make unsuitable pets and that to own a non-domesticated animal you should need a licence to prove you can properly care for it. Maybe I am species biased - I do not object to keeping certain reptiles, but I do object to big cats, wolfdogs, raccoons etc.
babytulip07 (09-26-07)
I didn't say that petshops weren't part of the problem. I said that most of those animals come from illegal import/poor breeders and that, along with poor care info and owner neglect leads to the death of most of the animals.
Please remember that you pointed out that petstores are a problem.
This is a whole different debate but to clarify. I can tell the difference between how my dogs, cats and rabbits interact with me (affection?) and how my snake, guinea pigs and turtles interact with me (conditioning?). Does that prove anything? No, not really. I simply can feel and see a difference in the species.
Perhaps you forgot or missed what I said in a previous post (#3 I believe)
"One of the reasons you do not see a lot of reptiles (especially lizards) in rescue is because most die at the hands of their owners or are released into the "wild"."
You don't see them because they never make it there. It's much like not finding fish in rescues or a lot of birds or other small animals. They never make it to rescue. Do you honestly believe that all of those impulse lizard buys are living happy lives or do you think that maybe, just maybe, they are dying or getting set free.
Perhaps you don't know that Florida is having a major problem with large, non-native snakes, iguanas, lizards and birds in the Everglades. They have a problem because most of those released animals find the environment hospitable and they thrive. Further north most of these exotic species die because the environment is too hostile. The same problem exists all over the south. It rather proves the point that these animals are being set "free" instead of someone bothering to call a rescue.
When will you have a problem? When the population is out of control? When you start seeing the suffering first hand? How long are you going to support the abuse of a species you love?
I see several differences right away. If you saw a picture of a wild guinea pig standing up you would see that it also has much longer legs then out domesticated species as well as being much more trim.
Most rabbit species? I think that is reaching verrrry far. The are maybe 2 domesticated rabbit species that resemble wild rabbits or hares and that is an appearance alone. Are you aware that the domesticated rabbit, no matter how much it looks like an American cottontail, cannot interbreed with the Amer, cottontail? They aren't alike at all except in general appearance.
I don't much like most of those wild species being kept as pets either. The number of feather plucking birds I've seen in my lifetime is proof enough that they are, overall, not suited for domestic living.
HowietheGreat (10-12-07)
VJ I just wanted to say I agree with you reptiles should not be kept as pets they belong in the wild. My best friend has a leopard gecko and I feel bad for him but I don't think she would take kindly to me telling her that though she's in love with her. She would just probably snap at me and tell me she knows what she's doing and stuff.
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