One of the reasons I'm against reptiles as pets

[VoodooJoint]

The illegal smuggling is cruel and out of control. There is a large and lucrative market for endangered species that would be better off in the wild or in protected and specialized breeding programs instead of in someone's private collection or at a breeder's house to be used to make money.

Feds: Lizards hidden in hollow leg - CNN.com

[crazywiggy]

I have to agree.... When I was at college we had a visit to the animal holding centre at Heathrow Airport where they hold all the illegally smuggled animals. There were literally hundreds of tiny baby reptiles, mostly snakes and chameleons. So sad...

[Alusdra]

While I agree that illegal and cruel situations such as this story need to be stopped (not only to preserve the animals in the wild but also for disease control purposes) it's completely unfair to lump all reptiles in when you say herps shouldn't be pets. The larger guys I might agree with you (large pythons, poisonous reptiles, large lizards), but the rest- they are great little guys. There are many species that make wonderful pets that have been in captive bred for generations. For example- I don't think there has been a wild leopard gecko imported in decades. I don't know what I would do without my geckos. I love them so much. And considering how many of the little guys are bred every year and how few are in shelters (thousands and like 10 on petfinder nationwide) it seems that most people would agree with me.

[TrekkiePiggies]

Just because they're not on Petfinder doesn't mean they're not out there. Do a search for reptile rescues online.

The reptile rescue near me is always packed with all kinds of herps, but mostly iguanas. People don't realize that no, they won't stay tiny, and no, they do not make good pets for kids. They get to be 6 feet long and can give a powerful, slicing bite.

I agree that the importation needs to stop. Captive breeding is possible, just way more expensive. Most pet shop iguanas are wild-caught, and it's not like they're rare. Some herps make excellent pets, but you really should not be able to purchase monitors, large boids, large pythons, iguanas, or other big, dangerous herps without some kind of permit.

[crazywiggy]

I take your point Alusdra - my main concerns are wild caught animals, particularly those that get smuggled in illegally, and poor care by people who get them without knowing how to look after them properly. I feel the same way about breeding reptiles as I do about other animals - only by responsible breeders who carefully vet new owners, and never when there is a problem with overpopulation.

[VoodooJoint]

Reptiles are not domesticated. Keeping reptiles as pets makes as much sense as keeping a tiger. They are both wild animals and unsuitable as pets. Just because a leopard gecko or ball python is unlikely to eat you (as a tiger might) does not mean it is a good idea to have them as pets.

You may be in love with your geckos. You may take great care of them but I guarantee you that they would be happier in the wild. They do not develop affections or loyalty for their owners. The best you can hope for is conditioning towards you. Just because they accept their confinement does not mean that they enjoy their lives.

One of the reasons you do not see a lot of reptiles (especially lizards) in rescue is because most die at the hands of their owners or are released into the "wild".

The vast majority of lizards die within a few months of being in their new homes due to ignorance and/or neglect. For every one lizard/reptile/amphibian that lives in a good home with a truly proper cage environment (large, correct heating, lighting, humidity with proper natural stimulus and appropriate food/feeding schedules) there are hundreds, if not a thousand or more, that are ill kept.

The poor owners far outweigh the good ones. It is not fair or kind to these animals to allow them to keep being exploited. Surely you too could jump on the animal welfare bandwagon and do all you can to end this suffering (and the suffering to prey by ignorant owners who insist on feeding live).

If you truly take proper care of your reptiles I'm certain you could get proper licensing to keep them once the laws are changed to help these animals. If not then wouldn't you be willing to do without geckos if that meant easing the suffering of thousands more in the pet trade that are being bought as novelties and neglected?

[rxqueen]

Originally Posted by VoodooJoint

The illegal smuggling is cruel and out of control. There is a large and lucrative market for endangered species that would be better off in the wild or in protected and specialized breeding programs instead of in someone's private collection or at a breeder's house to be used to make money.

Feds: Lizards hidden in hollow leg - CNN.com

Animals that were born wild should definitely remain that way. It saddens me to think of people taking animals out of their habitats to sell them or keep them. It seems really selfish. I know some people that have smuggled snakes and a couple of monkeys even from South America (I dont' know them personally, they are my therapist's sons). This was a long time ago so it was fairly easy for them to get through customs.

I would think with increased security at airports people would be deterred from continuing to do this, but I guess not.

[luvmyzoocrew]

Originally Posted by VoodooJoint

Reptiles are not domesticated. Keeping reptiles as pets makes as much sense as keeping a tiger. They are both wild animals and unsuitable as pets. Just because a leopard gecko or ball python is unlikely to eat you (as a tiger might) does not mean it is a good idea to have them as pets.

You may be in love with your geckos. You may take great care of them but I guarantee you that they would be happier in the wild. They do not develop affections or loyalty for their owners. The best you can hope for is conditioning towards you. Just because they accept their confinement does not mean that they enjoy their lives.

Come on werent all animals at one point of there exsitence wild, but through time over years and breeding they were domesticated? Also you say that they would be happier in the wild? samething could be said about guinea pigs or rabbits or any "domesticated" animal. Able to live the way they want and have freedom, domesticated animals have become conditioned over the years to being cared for by humans.

[Alusdra]

Ouch VJ.

Geckos most certainly do develop affection for their owners! They will come when they are called, enjoy chin rubs and will curl up in the crook of your neck and take a nap while you're studying or watching TV or whatever. They'll also take food from your hands sometimes. It is very easy to take care of a leopard gecko- as soon as we can get the knowledge out there not to put them on a sand substrate (grr- leads to impaction) there will be no real hang-ups for these little guys. They make great pets. I think better pets than rodents do, so far as care and needs are concerned (geckos are easier).

I think it is two separate issues between the big guys like iguanas (few people can/ are willing to take care of them properly) and the dangerous snakes versus the little reptiles and amphibians. It's also a different issue when you're talking about catching animals from the wild. You should have a permit for the big guys, and you should not import from the wild... but there are domesticated geckos, so far as you can define that term, anyway. Most of the morphs now would not survive in the wild (lack of camouflage) and I don't think they would be happier in the wild, anyway.

It's really hard to not care for a gecko properly. Forgot to feed it today? No problem. Haven't cleaned the cage in a week? Don't need to. If I could only have one pet, it would probably be a gecko. Not a dog, cat, bird, whatever. They are great pets and certainly are affectionate.

PS- feeding live is cruel to the reptile, too, done incorrectly. That is, anything older than a pinky mouse and leaving crickets in the cage or mealworms unsecured as they will attack the reptile. But I see no problems with feeding mealies and crickets live, especially as many lizards will not eat anything pre-killed.

Sorry if I got a little heated- but imagine someone saying that guinea's don't show affection (which I'm sure you've heard, anyway) and that's basically the reaction I'm feeling right now.

[VoodooJoint]

Originally Posted by luvmyzoocrew

Come on werent all animals at one point of there exsitence wild, but through time over years and breeding they were domesticated?

Yes, all animals originated from wild animals however there is a big difference between wild animals being kept as pets and domesticated animals.

What is the difference between a tiger born in the wild and one that is born in captivity even after 12 generations? There is no tangible difference. Show me the difference between a captive ball python and one that lives in the wild, or geckos or anoles or rat snakes, etc... There is no difference. They remain true to their original, wild, form and function.

Originally Posted by luvmyzoocrew

Also you say that they would be happier in the wild? samething could be said about guinea pigs or rabbits or any "domesticated" animal.

Unlike snakes and lizards I bet you could show me real differences between wild guinea pigs/rabbits and domesticated guinea pigs/rabbits. You could do the same with wild cats/dogs and domesticated cats/dogs. That is what I mean by domesticated. They are animals that have been changed so drastically by humans that they no longer resemble their wild cousins except in the most fundamental ways.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

Geckos most certainly do develop affection for their owners! They will come when they are called, enjoy chin rubs and will curl up in the crook of your neck and take a nap while you're studying or watching TV or whatever. They'll also take food from your hands sometimes.

I personally don't think it's love. I believe it's conditioning. Most wild animals can be conditioned. I have conditioned many wild animals myself. As a child I had wild rabbits, racoons, birds and ducks that would come running when I called and would caper excitedly about me, some even allowed me to touch them, all because I brought them food and spent the time to condition them to my presence and what my calls meant to them. Did they love me or feel affection for me? No. They knew that I brought them food. That was the limit of their affection.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

It is very easy to take care of a leopard gecko...They make great pets. I think better pets than rodents do, so far as care and needs are concerned (geckos are easier).

Then it really is sad that so many die within weeks, if not days, of being bought. I personally do not care if Geckos are as easy to care for as a pet rock. They are a wild animal, unchanged from their wild counterparts, and do not belong in captivity.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

Most of the morphs now would not survive in the wild (lack of camouflage)

Sorry, you will find me ignorant as far as "morphs". I do feel it very troubling that humans are meddling with these animals to this extent though. It's not unlike other species , in my opinion (like skinny pigs or satin pigs), and I feel that genetic problems are quickly going to start arising.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

feeding live is cruel to the reptile, too,

Yes it is, I failed to point that out.

Originally Posted by Alusdra

That is, anything older than a pinky mouse and leaving crickets in the cage or mealworms unsecured as they will attack the reptile.

I can understand feeding invertebrates live but I have a real problem with people feeding pinkies and fuzzies. It seems beyond cruel to me to take a helpless, usually hairless, baby from it's mother, toss it shivering and starving into a cage with a predator that will usually eat it whole and alive.

Like I said, I;m sure you love your geckos and it sounds like you care for them well and I wish you, and them, a long and happy life together. My problems lie with the very industry that breeds and sells these fragile creatures (mostly to children and as novelties/impulse buys). As I said before; far more end up in very poor homes then in good ones.

[catzeye21138]

I'm not going to go into much detail or argue or add my opinions, but do you concider it cruel that I own two normal(non-morph I think they are if they are normal???) Ball-pythons? I get why smuggling is bad but owning reptiles as pets in general?

[luvmyzoocrew]

well there is no point to argue about this because you will never agree that a reptile of any kind can actually "love" a human.

I totally agree with the smugling of reptiles, and i wont argue and cant argue about that.

[thalestral]

Are there any studies or other reading regarding reptiles and affection versus conditioning? I'm genuinely quite interested to find out more

[Jennicat]

I think that, as guinea pig owners, we tread on a slippery path of animals who don't "love" us. Most of us condition our guinea pigs to tolerate us, or to tolerate us touching them.

[VoodooJoint]

I don't think love or affection defines whether it's cruel or kind in keeping an animal as a pet. In my experience my guinea pigs don't feel much, if any, affection towards me. I feel that they tolerate me and are pleased to see me because I bring them food, treats and am kind to them. The difference is that GPs are domesticated.

I'm not saying it's cruel to own reptiles and amphibians. I have a rescue ball python myself. Despite being well and properly cared for I know that she would be happier in the wild. She is not domesticated. She is conditioned to me, she tolerates her captivity but she retains all of the necessary skills, form and function of a wild animal (unlike a GP).

I'm not saying that everyone should get rid of their reptiles. It's rather like skinny pigs in my eyes. I don't feel that those that exist should be exterminated. I feel that the breeding must stop and the eventual dying out of these particular animals should be allowed (for their own sakes).

The pet trade in wild animals must stop. That goes for both wild caught and captive bred. This goes past reptiles although reptiles are one of the biggest, species specific, groups to use an example. I believe that wild cats and wild cat/domestic cat crossbreeds as well as wolf and wolf/dogs, sugar gliders, raccoons, squirrels, short tailed opossums, etc... should not be pets. I'm not species specific at all.

Sugar gliders may make great pets and live long, happy lives in captivity with good care. However, far more suffer and die (like lizards) then are well cared for simply because they are wild animals that have very specific needs that the average pet owner is not prepared to accommodate. In general, they are not happy or comfortable in captivity and I feel it is cruel to keep allowing the pet industry to exploit these animals because humans want a novelty pet.

Keep the pets you already have and love but please do something to stop the suffering of more of these animals. If you truly love your animals you will want to act as a representative for them. I'm having a hard time understanding why this is such a foreign idea. Most of us here agree that GP breeding is foolish with the overpopulation and neglect problems. Why doesn't that ideal also cover wild animals? Why is it okay for reptiles and amphibians to be sold in generic petshops?

Also, if you don't think that there is any chance your reptiles were wild caught then think again. My rescue Ball Python was most likely a wild caught, illegally imported snake despite the fact that they breed readily in captivity. Wild catching/illegal import is often cheaper and more lucrative then keeping reptiles in ideal breeding conditions and raising them in captivity. Petshops do not check out the origins of the animals they sell. They go for the lowest buying price so they can get maximum mark-up. This often means either illegal import or poor breeding conditions, just like most other animals, which in turn means (either way) that you are supporting a cruel industry.