One of the reasons I'm against reptiles as pets

[Alusdra]

You're still lumping all reptiles together. My basic argument is that there are at least two different groups that should be dealt with individually. Do I say that because tigers don't make good pets that that means that all mammals make poor pets? No.

For the leopard gecko (which I will stick with as I know the most about this species) their wild requirements are such that they make good pets naturally, irrespective of domestication (which I believe has partially taken place in their decades of captive breeding). I have heard, though not confirmed myself, that a gecko kept in a tank larger than 40 gallons will have a hard time finding their food and suffer for it. This implies to me that they do not need spaces much larger than that size to be completely content. Thus they are better suited to be pets than say, a dog, that needs a large yard and/or walks to be happy.

And yes- there is less information out there about keeping most reptiles than there should be. Is this bad? Do I think this a reason to not keep them? No. We can always learn, and we have the basics down (that is, we know which conditions can keep them alive for longer than their natural life spans in the wild). 6 months ago I didn't know how to properly keep a guinea pig. 10 years ago there was no information out there about rabbits. When my parents were kids the care for dogs and cats even was much different than it is now. So I don't see that as an argument to say that exotics don't make good pets.

And as for when will I draw the line about the suffering? Yes, when I see it. I've been looking- I check Craigslist, I look on Petfinder, I work with local rescues, I talk to people in the community. I have not found any evidence to support claims that geckos are dumped or die young except for when those people have purchased their animals from pet stores, usually already ill, and have placed them in inappropriate habitats that petstores have recommended. People who buy from breeders have 10+ year old geckos. Even gecko breeders say how bad petstores are and will 'rescue' animals from them. So the only problem I see is petstores, not keeping or breeding leopard geckos, and I already have stopped going to petstores for how shabbily they treat all animals, birds, mammals, and reptiles (besides them selling baby pythons and iguanas, parrots and small mammals).

It was bothering me a lot that I had purchased my most recent gecko from a breeder, as this was the first pet I had ever purchased and not rescued and once I started to learn more about pet overpopulation I was terrified that I had sent some poor gecko to die because I had purchased. I have yet to find a gecko for adoption anywhere near me besides one in a private rescue. And that one, I might add, is not being kept on appropriate substrate, but I was going to contact the rescue about that. (Many care books for leos are as bad as those for cavies).

So to me, it is a care education issue (one that breeders are working on as well) and not a overpopulation issue.

And the whole importation and dangerous/dumped herp issue is quite separate, too. There clearly is a problem with iguana, large snake and turtles (and probably amphibians, too, as people tend to view them like fish).

[envisionary333]

Originally Posted by Alusdra

And as for when will I draw the line about the suffering? Yes, when I see it. I've been looking- I check Craigslist, I look on Petfinder, I work with local rescues, I talk to people in the community. I have not found any evidence to support claims that geckos are dumped or die young except for when those people have purchased their animals from pet stores, usually already ill, and have placed them in inappropriate habitats that petstores have recommended. People who buy from breeders have 10+ year old geckos. Even gecko breeders say how bad petstores are and will 'rescue' animals from them. So the only problem I see is petstores, not keeping or breeding leopard geckos, and I already have stopped going to petstores for how shabbily they treat all animals, birds, mammals, and reptiles (besides them selling baby pythons and iguanas, parrots and small mammals).

This is a very interesting topic to me as I also own leopard geckos and dearly love the little guys. Sadly, I purchased them from a pet store long before I found this site, but they have done quite well. I was provided with all kinds of improper care information there, and finally I decided to do my own research. Petco had all of their baby leopard geckos on coarse sand, and I could literally pick out which ones were impacted by the bulges in their stomachs. I told them about the problem, but they have of course not changed anything. They don't even carry cage carpet or any suitable alternative. My geckos now live in a long 40-gallon tank with all kinds of hiding places, a graduated under tank heating system, fresh water, gut-loaded crickets that have their own 20-gallon habitat, and a small mossy hide-out that I spray frequently when they are shedding their skin.

However, I have to say that I have no doubt that geckos are abandoned or mistreated all the time. They require a very specific habitat and live such long lives, I know people must get bored with their impulse buy at some point. I doubt people even think of taking them to a shelter, or even look for a shelter that accepts them, like they sometimes do with guinea pigs. And seeing as leopard geckos live far longer than guinea pigs and usually are less responsive to people and less "exciting" to observe, I imagine they are abandoned just as often, if not more, than guinea pigs are. I disagree with pet store breeders just like you, but I don't know how I feel on the whole subject. I think requiring a license to own such a special-needs pet is a good idea, as has been mentioned. I once purchased a Jackson's chameleon from a pet store and I had no idea what I was getting into based on the minimal information I was given. I had to buy a lot of supplies and make a lot of changes to finally give him proper care, and as soon as I moved his cage to another room, he became ill and died that die. They are such delicate creatures, and it was a heartbreaking experience. I really don't think they should be sold in pet stores to the average, impulsive, easily bored customers that want a "cool" looking creature to show off. They are a lot of work and require serious commitment.

[chary623]

When I lived in Florida I rescued an iguana (from the backyard) because people would buy them as babies for their children, and when they iguana grew they would release it. In Florida many of them survived in the "wild" aka backyards. It's sad to see pet stores selling them for like $20 or less, as a small "baby dragon" pet to a child, when they know very well the iguana grows to about 6 ft, and tame as they may be, most are still dangerous. If they are startled, they can deliver a dangerous or even lethal strike. A dog, cat, or guinea pig is not likely to do this. That's why I think reptiles and other potentially dangerous animals should only be kept by someone licensed to have them who knows what he/she is doing; and absolutely never as a child's pet.

[pigsforlife]

No child should have a pet without an adult/guardian commited to providing the care that the animal needs. Children should be supervised at all times regardless of how big, small or dangerous the pet is.

[chary623]

I agree, any animal with a child alone is potentially life-theatening for the child, the animal, or both. However, everyone knows how impulse buys work at a petstore. Parents see a cute, little, usually inexpensive animal and they buy it for their kids without researching about it. Sometimes they have no clue what the small animal is. This is bad parenting, and that's an issue on its own, but it's still true that a reptile, even a little one, carrying potential salmonella is much more dangerous for a child than a puppy or kitten. There is some responsibility that these animals are marketed at children when the stores know the potential danger, and sometimes they are sold to teenangers without parental supervision.

[Susan9608]

And as for when will I draw the line about the suffering? Yes, when I see it.

Too bad you don't want to go the extra mile and *prevent* suffering for the species you love so much.

[HowietheGreat]

I think there is a big difference between animals capable of love and animals that are capable of being conditioned. My dog comes to me out of loyalty and her intinict to be part of a pack. She greets me when I have nothing to offer and would follow me into a burning building if I was headed there. My guinea pigs have been conditioned to come to me beacuse they know they are being fed. They tolerate me because I am gentle with them and they know I bring food. If a robotic arm was the one to feed them, they would acknowledge the arm the same way. They do not need my social interaction with them. My dog would wilt without my presence. She depends upon my love and shows love and affection in return. My guinea pigs need each other for company-not me. I realize that and still love them. Many reptiles do not require social interaction except for reproducing purposes. They do not need you for a companion. To force a animal that would thrive far better in the wild to remain captive for our own enjoyment sickens me. How can you guarentee that they are as stimulated as they would be in the wild? Animal behaviorists continously study captive animals to try and discover ways to keep them stimulated and to keep off the negative effects of boredom. Sure, rescue those that we have but do not support breeders, and do not support the people illegally importing them who supply them to breeders who "keep their heads in the sand" as to where they come from.

[Susan9608]

For the leopard gecko (which I will stick with as I know the most about this species) their wild requirements are such that they make good pets naturally, irrespective of domestication (which I believe has partially taken place in their decades of captive breeding)

I also have to say that just because you *can* easily keep an animal in a captive environment doesn't mean that you *should.*

[thalestral]

I'd really like to see the facts to back up guinea pigs being "conditioned" rather than showing affection as it really doesn't ring true with my experiences at all.

[Susan9608]

I'd really like to see the facts to back up guinea pigs being "conditioned" rather than showing affection

I wonder if there are any facts on this subject? Think anyone has actually taken the time to research it?

From my personal experience, my guinea pigs didn't have any affection for me or anyone else. All people were equally equipped to feed them, which was the only thing they seemed to care about. If I didn't have food in my hand, they wanted nothing to do with me. My chinchillas are pretty much the same way. They don't seem to want attention or affection from me.

My cat, on the other hand, actively seeks me out for attention. When I get home from work every night, he's there waiting at the door, and it's not because of food because his food bowl has dry food in it all day. He follows me from room to room in our house, snuggles up with me at night, and comes when I call him. He does not like my husband, though. He doesn't pay the slightest bit of attention to him, won't come to my husband, and runs away when my husband tries to pick him up. My cat also doesn't seem to like anyone else, either, as he bites pretty much anyone who isn't me who tries to pet him. He definitely exhibits a people preference and seeks out my presence ... which is not something I've ever seen from a guinea pig or chinchilla or hamster.

[thalestral]

I'm not sure, I imagine guinea pigs are one animal science probably knows more about behaviourally as well as medically but that may be hoping for too much.

I have one girl who goes in the huff if my partner doesn't have breakfast with her in the morning (the pigs are not fed anything at this time - I get up later). She huffs (literally) and stomps off whenever he tries to apologise for the rest of the day until late evening. She also looks for reassurance from us at times and will shrug off other pigs and even veggies when she doesn't feel so good to be with us. Another girl hates it when my partner picks her up but is fine with me doing so, she also makes a show of having a clean whenever he touches her and gets terribly jealous if I stroke another piggie without stroking her straight after. During introductions she also climbs into my lap and sexy legs as opposed to cowering on the floor which is what happens if I don't let her climb up.

I think those and more examples of how they behave every day (jealousy, seeking us out for strokes and company instead of food) show they certainly have preferences for certain people which doesn't seem to be linked to provision of food as both myself and my partner split the work equally and have equal love for our piggies. Even more so, Rosie's preference of human company sometimes over guinea pig company.

The other three I don't notice these things but then, Rosie and Frisky make it very obvious so perhaps I'm just missing more subtle clues and gestures.

[John4216]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

I wonder if there are any facts on this subject? Think anyone has actually taken the time to research it?

The whole "conditioning" thing that most people learn about in their basic high school or entry level college courses does not really ring true as they teach it. Most people equate the conditioning with the Pavlovs dog that is usually taught and they use that when they think about it. The problem is that conditioning is not like that. It is much more complex and I won't go into the details here.

What I will say it that in GP's they can show affection and not just by conditioning. Being herd animals they instintively want to flee and this controls much of their interactions with other animals.

I will use my herd as an example. They have an entire bedroom to roam so that helps. I can go in and lay down on the floor in their room and read a book. Now comes the odd part. The timid ones will only approach me for food. The extroverts will come and check me out and then go about their business. But 2 of them (1 in oast now deceased) will go further. The one that died was remarkable. I swear she thought she was a dog. She would follow me around. She would, if I laid on the floor, come out and "nip" my toe and than run. She would watch me and then sneak back and do it again until I paid attention to her. She never did it where it was painful and she would walk into my hand to be picked up. Now she knew when I put my hand flat she would be picked up. She should have not done that by instinct and she got no benefit food wise for being handled and often get something not so pleasant (vet visit, ear cleaning, ect) yet she still wanted picked up, played with and would even lay next to me and rest.

As for dogs, it depends on the breed as to their intelligence level. But they can and do show true attachement and emotion that is not based on conditioning. Some dogs have gone into depression/grief so deep when their owners have died that they themselves stopped eating and died.


As for the whole reptile thing that tends to get a bit more muddled and I really do not know enough about them to comment.

[Susan9608]

The whole "conditioning" thing that most people learn about in their basic high school or entry level college courses does not really ring true as they teach it. Most people equate the conditioning with the Pavlovs dog that is usually taught and they use that when they think about it. The problem is that conditioning is not like that. It is much more complex and I won't go into the details here.

In doing a brief and extremely limited google search on this subject, that's pretty much all I came up with - operant conditioning. I found a few articles pertaining to dogs and emotions, but none were actual research, more just people's observations.

I wouldn't even know where to look to find information on the emotions of reptiles and amphibians. I suppose someone has researched it, as people seem to research everything, but where to look for it?

I think a lot can be surmised from anecdotal evidence ... I don't doubt that other people's guinea pigs were more affectionate than mine were, as it seems obvious to me that guinea pigs form attachments to each other and have a social nature. That tells me that they are at least capable of something deeper than just conditioning. But what about reptiles? I don't know much about them. Are there any herd reptiles? Do reptiles form attachments to each other? I've never heard of any such thing as that.

[kathmom26]

I have heard that about the iguanas in Florida. I have also heard that the hurricanes also helped release some more.

My son has two geckos. I could not find any in rescues or shelters. I found one that a person was given from Petco. The female we have ripped the tails off the other cage mates so I guess they could not sell them. The other one he has is a male. I found him for free in the paper. I have since seen them in petstores, but would rather take someones unwanted pet. Now he does want to breed them so I have made this part difficult. I told him he has to build the incubator himself. Of course I know him well and this has not even been started. He has not even bothered to read about it.

Maine wants to make all animals are captive bred instead of the wild. I am not quite sure how this will make things much better since we already have to many without homes.

[kathmom26]

Originally Posted by crazywiggy

Take a captive bred tiger. It may never have been wild itself but it still has the same instincts and desires as a wild tiger. It has not been selectively bred to socialise with people (and this alone takes many generations). It still wants the same size territory, still wants to hunt for food, etc.

I either read or watched a show that said a tiger is born with 90% of the adult brain already there. They are built on instict which is why those pets suddenly attack their owners.