Farm & Garden section allowed to sell!

[secuono]

I don't get what you guys are trying to do, but you should NOT be flagging anyone in the Farm & Garden section! Animals are food, many people eat pigs and rabbits, especially when they have extras that do not fit the needs; show, quality, bettering the breed and others.

Why are you flagging what is allowed? I do not accept over breeding, backyard mill breeding, but to better the breed, show and food is acceptable. As long as they are in good living conditions, why bother them? Everyone needs to make a living how they can.

I cannot see most of the CL ads, as you guys are only linking and not posting a screen capture image. So maybe some of you are doing right and only flagging those who break the CL rules or keep the animals in horrid conditions.

[Wildcavy]

Shouldn't this be in the Kitchen? Since you are advocating breeding for showing and "bettering" the breed?

I'm not talking about raising animals for food, but rather your reference to showing and overall promotion of breeding.

[MissJean]

I haven't seen any breeding stock for farming purpose being linked here.

You joined in 2009, so I'm confused as to why the whole "pro-adoption" aspect of this site hasn't sunken in yet.

As for your showing reference, people don't breed guinea pigs to benefit the pigs.

Craigslist doesn't allow breeders to sell their stock, so that's why they get taken down after being flagged.

[secuono]

Here is a link to one. Meat rabbit stock being flagged. They are in the right section, so there is no reason to flag them.

http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...ing-stock.html



I agree that sometimes people do not breed for the right things, but people eat pigs and rabbits. I don't like show people, I see no point in it, no matter the animal, dogs, cats or others. I have emailed CL and they told me that Breeding stock, no matter the animal, is allowed in the Farm/Garden section.

[Wildcavy]

@secuono , this is from your original post: "Animals are food, many people eat pigs and rabbits, especially when they have extras that do not fit the needs; show, quality, bettering the breed and others."

It suggests that you support breeding for showing and "bettering the breed," and then eating any leftovers that don't "fit the needs" of showing etc.

That seems to contradict your statment that you "don't like show people."

People eat dogs, horses, cats, and guinea pigs as food. Do you promote that here, too?

[KittyKrochet]

She does have a point though. We think of piggies as pets, but there are many indigenous cultures in the americas that rely upon cavy as a staple food source for protein, in environments that are otherwise devoid of such. Consuming the meat can also be of religious importance. I wouldn't ever eat a piggie, but some people do as part of their culture. Who are we to say their culture and any religious meaning behind consuming cavy is wrong? If that's how the posters are selling their stock as, then it's all good. Unfortunate, and not my style, but acceptable.

Sorry, the anthro major in me was twitching to dispell any ethnocentrism.

Breeders don't bring any good to pigs, though. Imbreeding to make the pigs "pure" can only hurt them. It's not fair to the pigs that don't meet their "standards" to be killed for food, either. Unless they are actually bred for human consumption, as opposed to being "bad" breeding stock, I'm pretty sure that the posters have every reason to be flagged. They might even be able to be investigated for animal abuse/neglect (please correct me if I'm wrong, though).

[Inle_Rabbit]

Just because the rabbits are a breed that is typically eaten does NOT mean they are selling them as food. The ad says breeding stock, best stock in the country, I have too many come improve your rabbitry. It says nothing about meat stock or that these would make good meat breeders. And yes there is a difference between New Zealands bred for meat production and those bred for show.

[Wildcavy]

She only has a point insofar as we are talking about animals bred for food. That was not her exclusive point though -- she was making an argument for breeding for show and "bettering the animal" purposes, and that leftovers could be sold as food.

They wouldn't be investigated for animal abuse / neglect if they were just selling castoffs, if the very minimum standards of care are met (and they are usually very low). And I doubt many CL abusers get investigated. I'm not saying they never do, but it takes really horrendous cases in most jurisdictions to get law enforcement attention, and even then the consequences are frequently inadequate.

[KittyKrochet]

They wouldn't be investigated for animal abuse / neglect if they were just selling castoffs, if the very minimum standards of care are met (and they are usually very low). And I doubt many CL abusers get investigated. I'm not saying they never do, but it takes really horrendous cases in most jurisdictions to get law enforcement attention, and even then the consequences are frequently inadequate.

That's what I wasn't sure about. I purposefully avoid CL because I know I'll feel it's neglectful but the authorities wouldn't agree! It's sad they sell the castoffs for meat. They could easily re-home them to people who would pay to have them!

[secuono]

Sorry to sound confusing. Most show people show for looks, so in general, I do not approve of it. Even in the Meat section of a rabbit show, most are not breeding for anything in that rabbit, but the meat body. They do not breed for good mothering, good milk, etc and that is where they become useless and not worth doing.

I had a chat about dog/cats as food with a friend last night, as a real source of bred food, it is not a good idea. They are not bred for the qualities needed to be worthwhile. But I have a feeling they eat those animals, because there are so many of them, they do not just vanish and they tend to be in good spirits to easily be handled.

Horse meat is a delicacy in some places and makes me gag, but again, it's needed because so many breeders create horses for showing or for racing. Many of them are not good enough and become extras. We do not have enough homes for them and never will, so a humane death and being used as food so they do not go to waste is good. But I do not like them being shipped out of country to do so. That is not humane.
My two horses are out of my league, but I do not sell them off to find ones that fit my current needs, I have never been ok with how horse people do that! How can they say they love their hunter horse, but in a few years, they outgrow the animal and sell it for one they fit?

As far as selling as pets, many areas have no market for pet rabbits. My area has none and selling them as such equals $5 or nothing and that does not help feed the other rabbits they may have. Many people impulse buy, they know nothing of the animal they are buying. They buy for their children, which is one of the worst things you can do, and then 3mo to 2yrs later they abandon the pet just because the child no longer has interest. There are so many rabbits at shelters just sitting there doing nothing. Many shelters do not know how to care for them and they end up sitting in their own waste or put with other rabbits and fights happen.

All in all, there are way too many 'activities' with animals that are for nothing but our expendable enjoyment. And we will never be able to stop it nor control it to where the 'expendable' number is anywhere near acceptable.

I'll also agree that the ad does not say meat breeder stock, but with certain breeds, that is what they were created for and it becomes one of those 'obviously meat breed' things. They don't say commercial stock or meat stock, which would put me off until they showed papers and records for good weights, mothering and others. But in general, the ad does feel like meat animals. Most common meat breeds are the NZW and the Californians, most people who look in that CL section know what they are looking for and the 'meat' doesn't need to be there for the seller to get the point across.

[foggycreekcavy]

Regarding horses for food, you said:

We do not have enough homes for them and never will, so a humane death and being used as food so they do not go to waste is good.


Unfortunately, horses that go into the food system do not die a humane death.

Perhaps instead of killing and eating surplus horses, people could actually stop breeding them.

I will never condone slaughtering horses for food. Watch some YouTube videos and you never will, either.

[Inle_Rabbit]

Even hobby breeders of strictly "show" breeds keep those type of records. No one wants to put time, money and cage space into a rabbit that continually eats her babies. As long as they are selling animals for breeding it will be flagged.

[madelineelaine]

You have succeed in enraging me.

"it's needed because so many breeders create horses for showing or for racing. Many of them are not good enough and become extras. We do not have enough homes for them and never will, so a humane death and being used as food so they do not go to waste is good."

as a crazy vegetarian, this has thoroughly upset me. If people did not breed animals in the first place, then we would not have problems with over population. If people would stop showing animals, then we would not have this problem either. And to say that the animal will go to waste if it isn't eaten? So the animal is a waste, a waste of a life, because it isn't up to show standards. I can only imagine the views on humans that correspond with that. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE SHOW ANIMALS. And to murder an animal because it isn't pretty enough, or up to standards, or doesn't win first place, well that's down right idiotic and ridiculous. Why punish an animal that you, as a breeder, breed. You set the conditions for the animal to be breed, for a purpose. Unless you have some way of altering genetics, you can not guarantee the animal will be a perfect show horse. And then to simply dispose of it, because it isn't useful anymore? Or because there isn't enough room for it? That's selfish, inconsiderate and disgusting.

I have no problem with people who actually go out and kill their own meat. Of course, I don't like the thought of it, but I'd much rather someone go out and kill a deer, then bring it home and prepare it. It upsets me to see people going to the supermarket and just buy meat there. It's the mentality, out of site, out of mind. We try not to think about what we consume. I can respect people who kill the animal themselves, at least a little bit. But to mearly kill an animal because "There isn't any room" or " It isn't a good show horse" is appalling.
And as a side note, it is NOT a human death. If we treated humans like we treat animals, then maybe we would all realize the cruelty involved.
The same thing goes for all animals. And as a second side note, why does the thought of eating guinea pigs, rabbits, and horses bother some of you, but when it comes to eating a cow, everything is fine and dandy?
/end of my angry post.

[secuono]

I agree that large scale/commercial farming is a large issue. It becomes a huge money war for them. That is why I support local farmers that try to use medications only when needed, they do right by their animals the best they can and they are not just another number.

But with 7 Billion people now, we are very much so lost in the modern world. To even get close to the 'perfect' world, we would need to drastically drop to 2-3 billion. But on top of that, so much would have to change, letting people breed all willy nilly would have to stop. Certain types of people shouldn't procreate now, either.

Much of the videos online are the extreme side of things, no one spys on the farms that do it properly, because there is no 'juicey' story there. People are wicked creatures, self involved, don't want or care to know how or where food comes from.

[MissJean]

I agree that large scale/commercial farming is a large issue. It becomes a huge money war for them. That is why I support local farmers that try to use medications only when needed, they do right by their animals the best they can and they are not just another number.

But with 7 Billion people now, we are very much so lost in the modern world. To even get close to the 'perfect' world, we would need to drastically drop to 2-3 billion. But on top of that, so much would have to change, letting people breed all willy nilly would have to stop. Certain types of people shouldn't procreate now, either.

Much of the videos online are the extreme side of things, no one spys on the farms that do it properly, because there is no 'juicey' story there. People are wicked creatures, self involved, don't want or care to know how or where food comes from.

Going to get into eugenics now? This thread is going in all sorts of directions.

[Inle_Rabbit]

Good grief, let's just nuc everyone else and start your utopia...

[jm_1234]

But on top of that, so much would have to change, letting people breed all willy nilly would have to stop. Certain types of people shouldn't procreate now, either.

Ummmmmm what exactly are you saying here.

As for the horses. I have been riding for 21 years now. My parents bought me my first horse when I was 10. We owned him for 19 years until he had to be euthanized a couple months ago. Even though he was injured 12 years ago and had to be retired from riding he was considered our pet. I would never just ship him off to the meat factory just because he cannot be used anymore. I have owned horses and sold horses. I was even in the business of buying horses not trained or with issues, training them and then re-selling them to people to love but those people did not have the skills to do it themselves. My issue with you saying that selling a horse is like giving away a pet is in my opinion not the same. A pony for instance is usually bought for a small child. What happens when that child gets to big for the pony, the child is suppose to continue riding the poor pony or sell it to another child to be ridden and loved. What about a horse that is bought to teach someone how to ride. That rider will eventually want a bigger challenge from a horse not used to teach. Its not like giving away a dog that thinks of itself as your family and lives in your home. Yes, there are some people that could care less about there horses and treat them like a machine, however just because you sell a horse does not make you a bad person who doesn't care about the horse.
I had a pony that a used for Prince Phillip Games when I was a young teen. After I was to old to play the games anymore my parents made me sell him. I cried and cried over it but I found him a wonderful home with a little girl who loved him for quite a few years until she got to big for him then sold him to someone else.

Horses going for meat-there is no brighter side to it, that is an awful way for any animal to go. Its is not humane and turns my stomach to even think about it.

[Wildcavy]

But on top of that, so much would have to change, letting people breed all willy nilly would have to stop. Certain types of people shouldn't procreate now, either.

Could you elaborate on which of us humans you would like to stop from breeding? "Letting" people "breed all willy nilly"? Perhaps we should do what they do in China, with the one child policy? And have forced abortions? So much for the right to choose.

Perhaps you would like to euthanize -- humanely of course -- my kids, who are disabled. After all, what possible good could they contribute to the world? Never mind that they are the kindest, sweetest, most gentle kids on the planet -- they are surely what you would categorize as "bad breeding stock."

Oh, but wait -- I am also apparently bad breeding stock. On the outside, when I was younger, you wouldn't think so. I'm smart, driven, successful. But hey, I ended up with a deadly neuromuscular disease, which only became evident after I spawned my "defective" kids.

I agree with you that people are often wicked creatures, and frequently self-involved and willfully ignorant. The irony is that sometimes the people making that observation should hold a mirror up to themselves.

I sincerely hope the rest of the forum participants who are as defective as I am will have some thoughts.

[PigPandemonium]

I agree with the not letting certain people have kids in a way. I'm not saying that any parents that are not perfect should not have kids, what I'm saying is that some people are just not mature enough to take care of their kids the way they need to, or are a bad influence over them, such as by doing illegal things like selling drugs. This issue recently came up in my family when my uncles daughter who is 18 and deals drugs got pregnant by a 17 year old. Now she is one of the people I feel should not be able to have kids, she's not ready for it, and will not be able to take care of the kid.

No I don't think that said kids should be aborted by any means, I don't even believe in the death sentence, however I do think kids whose parents are not ready for them or not able to take care of them should be placed in other homes where they will be able to live much better lives if they do happen to have a kid.

[Wildcavy]

I agree with the not letting certain people have kids in a way. I'm not saying that any parents that are not perfect should not have kids, what I'm saying is that some people are just not mature enough to take care of their kids the way they need to, or are a bad influence over them, such as by doing illegal things like selling drugs. This issue recently came up in my family when my uncles daughter who is 18 and deals drugs got pregnant by a 17 year old. Now she is one of the people I feel should not be able to have kids, she's not ready for it, and will not be able to take care of the kid.

No I don't think that said kids should be aborted by any means, I don't even believe in the death sentence, however I do think kids whose parents are not ready for them or not able to take care of them should be placed in other homes where they will be able to live much better lives if they do happen to have a kid.

You won't get any argument from my that some people should not make the choice to procreate. Or should wait. But that is a far cry from saying that some should not be "allowed" to procreate. And advocating for adoption is a far cry from advocating for forced abortions. It is entirely the opposite, I believe, as I think that a parent choosing to give her child for adoption is one of the most noble, courageous gifts any human can give.

Mature adults should take responsibility for their dependents, whether human or non-human. I do not want someone else or some governmental body stepping in and forcing my choice. If I prove that I am not mature enough to raise a child or elder or an animal, and I am abusing or neglecting my dependent, that is a different story. But that means that I should bear the consequences, not my dependent.

If someone chooses to not have children, I support fully that decision. I am not going to interfere and will celebrate their right to make mature decisions. They should respect others rights as well. I've been on the other end more frequently than I care to reflect on, of people mocking or degrading my children or re-evaluating me when they realize what is coming down the pike for me. Questions about why I had them. Why I didn't institutionalize them. Was I going to have any more? What will my end of life decisions be, for them and for me?

Do I think it would be better of some people didn't? Sure. I'm not fond of the idea of Michael Vick raising kids. I'm not going to hold him down and snip him, though.