Convincing against buying from a breeder

[Squint96]

A family member of mine is contemplating getting a dog, and want to get it from a breeder. Since joining this site I have learned all about breeders, and all the animals in shelters that need homes. I really want to convince them to find the perfect puppy in a rescue or shelter, but they don't want to listen to me. Any tips to change their mind?

Sorry if this is kind of off topic

[Zuidy]

Breeders aren't BAD people really. As long as they like their animals and they are well taken care of, and have some insight as to the history of their animals, they can be trusted.

Of course, it is still better to get a pet from a shelter due to the many homeless animals of the world.

__

Tips to change their mind, eh? Make a presentation on the benefits of getting from a shelter. Also, voice your opinions and do your best not to take no for an answer.

[ChristieB]

I think there are different type of breeders out there and you have to take that into account. There are a lot of breeders out there who only breed a couple times a year. They do it for the betterment of the breed and don't want to risk their dame getting overbred. They charge high amounts because they are limiting breeding and they won't just give anyone a pet. They will deny people pets that they feel like won't fit their pups. If the breed is known to have certain ailments (for instance Boxers are prone to cancer, Papillons are prone to PRA, Cavalier King Charles are prone to heart defects) then they breed only in a line with parents who have no known history in a LONG line of relatives. Essentially, they have bred that ailment out. The dogs that are bred are family dogs...not like back yard breeders who lock them in cages.
Adoption, just like breeders, is not for everyone. We just lost our dog and I can tell you that when we get another we are going through a breeder. She is not breeding her dogs again until the spring because she only breeds twice a year. She is not in it for money. She shows dogs and find reward in that and has a love for the breed. She will not sell a pup to a home until they are 4 months old to see temperment and to be able to best pair a pup to a family. She has called my vet to make sure that I have given past good care and has asked me to contact hers to understand the health background with her dogs.
This is considered a reputable breeder. They are not doing it for money, but for the love of the breed. Not all breeders are bad. They can't be grouped like that. A breeder who encourages you to come to their home to see how hands on they are, to call their vet and to call yours, to screen each person and only pick and choose the best ones for their pups, to give you a health guarantee for life, to breed for ideal temperment, to say they would take their dog back at any stage in their lives if something changed in your home, to make you sign a contract that you could get sued for if you do not spay or neuter....in my book that's not a bad thing, it's a very good thing.
You have to take into account that there are all kinds of breeders out there.

[Inle_Rabbit]

You can inform them of the facts against buying but in the end the decision is theirs. Hopefully they will make the morally right one.

[spy9doc]

ChristieB........I commend you on your very logical and informed post! But, you won't find many on this forum who agree with you. I once posted something similar.........and was soundly thrashed by the vets here.

If you haven't already noticed, I loathe generalities of any kind. As a researcher and healthcare professional, I'm all too aware that there are always exceptions to the rule. One must evaluate each and every situation and then make an informed choice. I guess that makes me "pro choice"?

[go_ellie]

Breeders in my opinion are fine as long as they take care of the animals. Puppy mills are not, mass breeding.

Yes adoption is best!! Look at petfinder, and show them all the cute adorable, some are already trained dogs and puppies. Read them there stories, and maybe even have them visit the shelter.

Good luck!!

[littledinobug]

My mom used to breed Chinese Shar-pei. we might have had..one, maybe two litters a year. We had...2 studs, and about...5 bitches at any given time. ALL of them, lived in our house. Yup. 7 dogs, not including puppies, in our house, all part of our family. We walked them all, we scooped after em all. CKC registered kennel. We were in for the betterment of the breed. We didn't sell very many puppys as pets...we sold to show homes, that followed our philosophy as well. Our bitches had maybe 2 litters, maybe 3 before they were spayed and retired, then rehomed to a forever home.

Any pups that didn't make the "cut" as a show pup, or had some flaw like flowered (spots) pattern? We homed those as pets, too many pei breeders culled those.

Oh and our "Pet" quality puppies were sold on strict non breeding contracts, we would not give the owner the full registration papers until we had a spay/neuter certificate from their vet. Also we were more than willing to take back any pup that no longer fit in their new family's lifestyle, regardless of age.

I think, the only real BENEFIT of going for a "Purebred" is you know that there are certain genetic traits that are common/specific to a certain breed, MIND YOU, there are breed specific rescue organizations you can go to if you want a pure-bred dog. My husband has severe allergies, and can only be around poodles, portugese water dogs, and other breeds of that sort. Guess what, we don't have a dog. 1: No rescues around and 2: The SPCA doesn't have those breeds at the moment. It's a health issue for my husband. Would rather NOT have a dog, than get one that makes him sick, and have to send it back to the SPCA.

Trust me, if it weren't for his allergies we would have a few furry friends if I had my way. Luckily he isn't allergic to Piggies.

[doganddisc]

If nobody were breeding well bred dogs, we'd all be stuck with animals from puppy mills and backyard breeders who throw two pet quality dogs together.

I have rescued numerous cats and dogs from high-kill shelters and adopted them into loving homes. But my next dog will be from a breeder. Why? I want a healthy working dog that I know has the ability to work stock. Can you test a rescue dog for this? Yes. But if I'm going to put three years of stockdog training on a dog, I don't want it to end up having hip dysplasia by the time it's five because some jerk threw his two herding dogs together without health tests and my dog was the end result.

Not everybody should rescue. Not everybody should buy from a breeder. And not everybody should own a dog. There are a lot of "shoulds" and "should nots" in the animal world, but who am I to tell somebody what they can and cannot do? I educate to the best of my ability- beyond that, if they know that they are breeding irresponsibly or buying a dog when an adopted dog would be just fine, that's on their conscience.

However, will I be around to clean up the mess? Probably. Rescue is my passion. I just also really want a good working dog.

To people looking for a pet- a rescue dog would most likely suffice unless there were specific needs in the family that would make knowing the history of a dog and it's lineage beneficial. IE: Allergies, very young children, etc.

[bpatters]

An amazing number of those "well-bred" dogs failed vet checks at the recent Crufts Confirmation Show. See Disqualified: Bulldog and Pekingese Fail Crufts Vet Checks | Life With Dogs for a story about it.

Breeders breed for what will sell. They'll breed satin guinea pigs because people like the shiny coats, with no thought of the pain that the pigs suffer from osteodystrophy. They'll breed sloped back German Shepherds in spite of the fact that most of them have hip problems because of the unnatural stance. Genetically similar animals are bred to produce a certain characteristic, there by greatly increasing the chances of genetic diseases.

Don't fool yourself -- there are very few breeders in the business for the improvement of the animal stock. They're in it to make money, which is not a problem in and of itself, except for the pain the animals suffer.

[doganddisc]

bpatters- There is an absolutely massive difference between breeding for show and breeding to preserve the breed. I am completely opposed to conformation because of what the breeders have done to the dogs as a result of conforming to a written standard.

My interest is with those preserving instincts that were long ago bred into the dogs. Without the good working breeders we have today, there would be no working Border Collie. The Australian Shepherd is a good example of what happens to a breed when the working breeders are no more- find a quality working Aussie breeder. It will take you a very long time and a whole lot of digging before you find somebody.

I am a very firm believer in form following function. Conformation shows support the idea that function follows form. Breeders from the conformation shows will swear up and down that their fluffy Border Collie can herd- but they have never done anything beyond a herding test with the dog. They don't KNOW if it can herd. They just assume. The same goes with German Shepherds. I HATE the roached back GSDs. I would much sooner taking a working shepherd.

With that being said, there are many breeders in the business of improving their chosen breeds. You just have to know where to look. As I said before, without those good breeders, we would only have dogs from pet shops and backyards. And then where would we be?

[pocketmonster]

Okay, so there's a lot of varying opinions about buying puppies from breeders, and so here's my side.

We got our Bichon Frise, Buddy, probably almost a decade ago. He was a wonderful dog who we got as a 4 year old from a breeder because she retired her studs and bitches at that age and rehomed them to families like us who would adore him up until his painful death at 12 due to kidney cancer.

The absence of a fluffy little poofhead in the house was deafening so after only 2 months, we researched his bloodline and found that the same breeder had a bitch that was going to give birth to Buddy's great-great-great (etc, etc, etc.)grand puppy, so after deciding that we wanted a dog exactly like the first because he was such a wonderful and loving part of my childhood. Every memory I have of growing up from 11 onward has Buddy in it. He is an impressionable part of my friends memories too, as he was always the most loved of my friend's dogs.

We brought Bear home about three years ago. I cannot tell you how much love I have for this doggy, and what a perfect and amazing boy he is. He is intelligent, affectionate, responsive and, most importantly, always healthy. I have so many funny stories of him and have often referred to him as my little brother, because when I'm home from school he will follow me constantly and literally hang out with me. He loves to watch the guineas (although I don't trust him enough to let him do more.. he may be poofy but he still has the instinct of a carnivore). Here's some pictures of Bear, just because I love him so much and want everyone to see my beloved wittle Beardog!


Basically, not trying to argue with anyone or prove anyone wrong. I'm not trying to present points to sway opinions. I'm just showing you a positive experience with breeders. Ultimately, the decision is up to you (and your family member, of course).
I wish you luck!

[doganddisc]

Pocketmonster, he is adorable!!

[pocketmonster]

Pocketmonster, he is adorable!!

Awww, thank you!! As you can tell by the pictures of him on my dad's lap, he runs the house. He hops up on my dad's lap after every meal and just "allows" my dad to pet him like that. Hahah! I love the Bichon breed, they have such personality and love and aren't possible without dedicated breeders.


Here he is watching Harper do zoomies, hahahah it makes me laugh every time!

[lissie]

You know you can find Bichon in rescues and shelters too. Just saying.

[doganddisc]

I don't think shoving rescue down everybody's throats is exactly the best way to encourage them to take that road.

[SurfingPigs]

I don't think shoving rescue down everybody's throats is exactly the best way to encourage them to take that road.

What do you suggest?

I only see encouragement backed by mostly logic, not much shoving down throats going on in this thread.

[doganddisc]

What do you suggest?

I only see encouragement backed by mostly logic, not much shoving down throats going on in this thread.

I strongly support educating a person on the topic of rescue. However, on this forum in general, there is a lot of jumping onto new users who have (ignorantly or knowingly) made the unfortunate decision of purchasing an animal at a pet store.

I think of educating somebody the same way that I explain to my clients a dog's opposition reflex. If you pull the dog in one direction it will naturally pull in the opposite direction to avoid losing its balance. However, if you guide the dog in the direction you want them to go in, the dog will follow.

I have been asked at least five separate times thus far where my next guinea pig is coming from and every time has been completely unsolicited because I was discussing a different topic or asking an unrelated question. Pocketmonster posted a video about a really cute video and some great photos of her dog (who actually looks quite well bred to me!) and there isn't a single comment about the actual state of the dog or the fact that it very clearly is well loved and well cared for. Instead, it has to be mentioned that there are Bichons available in shelters as well.

We all have a choice of choosing where to get our animals. Should we choose rescue? If it makes sense. Sometimes it is okay to get a dog from a breeder. Many rescues do not make it easy to adopt and are essentially shooting their cause in the foot because they ask the prospective owners to jump through way too many hoops before they are wiling to give them an animal. I have heard thousands of times people tell me that they were going to rescue but it was just a lot easier to buy from a store. Does that make it right? Of course not! But there has to be a happy medium somewhere- if you're too strict, ie pulling in one direction, you aren't going to have any followers except for those who are already pulling others in the same direction.

[SurfingPigs]

I strongly support educating a person on the topic of rescue. However, on this forum in general, there is a lot of jumping onto new users who have (ignorantly or knowingly) made the unfortunate decision of purchasing an animal at a pet store.

You mean like creating multiple websites that concisely, in a quite educative and non-combative method, inform people of the benefits of rescue and the atrocities that are, in general, the result of breeding operations? What a wonderful idea...

These days there is very little "jumping on new people" going on in the forum. Those who do jump on new people are reprimanded by the moderators; there is even a long disclaimer for users on the top of the intro forum to not even bring up the topic. Now, if someone has been a member here and knows about rescue and still chooses to buy a pig and post about it, they will hear about it, but they are begging for it at that point.

What is your problem with people informing users that they can save dogs that are on death's door instead of all of us mindlessly saying "OH SqUeEe u got a kute puppyeye!"? Sorry, if one comes here fishing for compliments and ego boosts, I suggest they look elsewhere. This website is first and foremost about guinea pig care and rescue, and there is nothing mean/rude/indignant about informing someone they can get whatever breed they want at a shelter. Damn us for caring. There are literally dozens of web pages that one can wander through on this and other websites that educate them in a great way. If someone chooses to participate in a public forum, they ought to expect a range of responses and be sound-of-emotion enough to handle it.

Many rescues do not make it easy to adopt and are essentially shooting their cause in the foot because they ask the prospective owners to jump through way too many hoops before they are wiling to give them an animal

Where do you think rescues get these animals from? The answer is incompetant owners. There is a reason for hoops to be jumped through; I'm an excellent owner and caretaker, and I walked through those hoops with ease. If you can't jump through, you probably shouldn't have an animal in the first place. I am beyond thankful that rescues have the standards and sense to vet their potential adopters before handing out pets. Sending a rescued animal home with a miserable owner is not rescuing.

I have heard thousands of times people tell me that they were going to rescue but it was just a lot easier to buy from a store.

Sometimes it takes a little effort to do the right thing. I'm sorry that you know thousands of people unwilling to put in that effort, and I'm happy to know hundreds of pet rescuers who aren't lazy.

[captaincavymom]

We have a a good relationship with the breeder that we got our Aussie from. We screened her just as much as she screened us. We still keep in touch and share photos. If I have questions she is there to help. She came highly recommended because she believes dogs are dogs first and she also refers to them as her furbabies. They were raised in her home, and she didn't even breed a litter last year. She is focused on personality and has consistently raised sweet and well tempered dogs. To me this is a good breeder and I feel fortunate to have gotten to know her.

We had originally considered getting from a shelter, all my husbands previous dogs were rescues but this was our first dog as a family. Knowing how they are raised and who is raising them is a big part of understanding what you are getting. Now that we have some experience and the kids are older, I will likely get a rescue the next time we get a dog. I am against breeders that don't put their dogs first, against puppy mills, and against irresponsible petowners who do their own share of filling shelters by not spaying and neutering their pets.

BTW: I'm not bashing the good owners of this forum who have had accidental pregnancies with their piggies. I do understand spaying and neutering poses a risk to guinea pigs that it does not pose with cats and dogs.

[doganddisc]

You mean like creating multiple websites that concisely, in a quite educative and non-combative method, inform people of the benefits of rescue and the atrocities that are, in general, the result of breeding operations? What a wonderful idea...

No, that's been done very well here and on numerous other websites. I'm talking about educating the people who make the difference- the consumers in store and the employees of the pet stores, both of whom I am sure make up a significant population of this forum. If those people are being bashed for either shopping at or working in a pet store OR for supporting breeders, they are not going to be eager to support the cause of rescue because it HAS been shoved down their throats.

These days there is very little "jumping on new people" going on in the forum. Those who do jump on new people are reprimanded by the moderators; there is even a long disclaimer for users on the top of the intro forum to not even bring up the topic. Now, if someone has been a member here and knows about rescue and still chooses to buy a pig and post about it, they will hear about it, but they are begging for it at that point.

What is your problem with people informing users that they can save dogs that are on death's door instead of all of us mindlessly saying "OH SqUeEe u got a kute puppyeye!"?

I don't have one if said user is looking for a dog. The above poster was not. Therefore there was no point in basically pointing out that s/he is, in your mind, a heartless human being for going to a reputable breeder to get her dog.

Sorry, if one comes here fishing for compliments and ego boosts, I suggest they look elsewhere.

I don't think anybody was fishing for compliments..

This website is first and foremost about guinea pig care and rescue, and there is nothing mean/rude/indignant about informing someone they can get whatever breed they want at a shelter.

I agree.

If someone chooses to participate in a public forum, they ought to expect a range of responses and be sound-of-emotion enough to handle it.

This is where we disagree. You don't seem to understand who your audience is. You are getting people who WANT to learn about caring properly for their guinea pigs and when they tell you they purchased said animal at a store, you berate them with information that points out what a terrible person they are for having done so. They already have the animal and you can't change where they got it. Educating for future reference is fine- but when these people defend their actions because they are attacked from all angles, it just adds fuel to the fire and the arguments heat up. Instead of saying "Look at all the dead guinea pigs that you just made happen" why not try something like "For your next cavy, why don't you try checking out a rescue? I'm sure there are plenty in your area." Don't tell me it doesn't happen and that it isn't happening. I've been on these forums in the past and have lurked for months.

Where do you think rescues get these animals from? The answer is incompetant owners.

Wrong. There are literally hundreds of reasons why an animal ends up in a shelter. Not all owners who surrender their animals are incompetent.

There is a reason for hoops to be jumped through; I'm an excellent owner and caretaker, and I walked through those hoops with ease.

I absolutely agree that there are plenty of reasons to have hoops to jump through. However, there are MANY rescues who make adopting an animal way too difficult just as others make it way too easy. Should I have a fence if I'm looking to adopt a dog? Sure, if the rescue wants to only adopt to people with fences and has a good reason for doing so, that's fine. But if I don't make as much money as they think I should or if I've surrendered animals to a shelter in the past, this does NOT indicate the quality of ownership that I give my animals. I personally was only turned down once by a rescue and it was because of the area I lived in (not their service area). But I also never applied to some rescues because their methods for determining me to be a good adopter were far too invasive. I've done rescue. I know how to find a good home for a dog. Is it always 100%? Absolutely not. But there are some hoops that are just not necessary. I adopted two dogs to owners who did not have a fenced yard- and one was even a college student! Both were people who had trouble getting dogs because of their lack of a fence. The first owner competes with their dog in agility trials now and brings her with them to work every single day. The second owner also brings their dog to work- he is the superintendent of a golf course and it is the dog's job to chase geese off the land. These are people that many rescues would have turned down. Those are the bad hoops that I'm talking about.

I am beyond thankful that rescues have the standards and sense to vet their potential adopters before handing out pets. Sending a rescued animal home with a miserable owner is not rescuing.

I agree.

Sometimes it takes a little effort to do the right thing. I'm sorry that you know thousands of people unwilling to put in that effort, and I'm happy to know hundreds of pet rescuers who aren't lazy.

I known plenty of people willing to put in the effort but the effort they put in wasn't enough for some rescues. That is not rescuing responsibly.