Breeding mice for food? Snakes?

[Chantilly]

Hello, I'm more of a lurker on this site then anything, but I find the discussions not only educational but enlightening. This site led me to adopt my pigs, instead of purchasing from a store, but also led me to adopt my first corn snake from craigslist, Emily.

A pet snake's diet basically requires mice to be bred for food. The mice are fed frozen/thawed so they don't suffer while being eaten. I've done research about the euthanization methods, which seem humane (CO2/cervical dislocation), but I'm guessing a life of breeding in colonies would receive negative feedback no matter how spacious/clean the areas were kept. If you bred mice yourself, you could control the environment giving them adequate time to recuperate between pregnancies, and ensure they were euthanized humanely.

What do YOU think is the best solution? I know many here are vegan/vegetarian, but some creatures have diets that require meat. Do you feel that these are inappropriate pets? What should be done with snakes that need homes, if so? Are there situations where breeding animals is okay? (i.e, for food: free range, organic, etc?)

I don't intend to start a war, but I've been milling over this myself for a few days and would like to hear some different opinions on the matter. Thanks for reading!

[Paula]

I certainly don't think it's inappropriate to have a meat-eating pet, and I think it's important to see to it that said meat-eating pets are receiving the best and highest quality care we can give them. I do think it's highly inappropriate to try to put a carnivorous pet onto a vegetarian or vegan diet. Doing so can be detrimental or even devastating to an animal's health. I think folks that try to do this are doing so purely for selfish reasons and aren't thinking of the pet in question or meeting his/her nutritional needs.

My husband and I don't eat meat, but we haven't the slightest problem with feeding our dog and cat meat.

Now, in my personal opinion, I think I'd rather see mice live good lives where they have plenty of space and appropriate feed, toys, etc., that are then killed humanely for another pet in the household than mice that live a life in a pet store or breeder environment where they're in disgustingly cramped conditions, bred back to back, and have virtually no quality of life to speak of.

[Camerafreak]

Honestly the thought of another animal eating another animal makes me sick. I don't want this to sound rude or degrading to animals that eat other animals but i don't believe they should be kept as pets. They should have to search for their food for themselfs. Thats the way I look at it. I am also terrified of snakes though .

[Sirene]

I think Paula is right. There is no way I could kill animals I'd bred myself and watch something else eat them, though. You definitely have a stronger stomach than I do!

[VoodooJoint]

There is no way around a reptile's need for "whole prey" food requirements and meat is meat. There really isn't a difference between a dog eating beef or chicken and a snake eating mice.

Obviously, raising your own mice for food for your reptile is the best way to go as you can insure that the animals are well treated. However, you also must be able to ensure a humane euthanasia method. Most people are unable or unwilling to take that last, crucial step and the prey animal (and reptile) suffers, either by being fed alive or by employing less then stellar euthanasia.

As far as your question about reptiles being pets. No, I don't think wild animals should be pets. That is exactly what reptiles are. They are wild animals. It doesn't matter if they were bred in captivity or not. A tiger remains a wild animal even if it's family have been bred in captivity for generations, so does a snake.

I believe that the reptiles currently living in captivity should be homed through rescues and sanctuaries that truly have the animals best interests and care in mind and will find suitable homes. Sales, import and breeding of reptiles, for the pet trade, should end and we should evolve past our desire to keep wild exotics in captivity for our amusement.

[Paula]

Honestly the thought of another animal eating another animal makes me sick.

Do you have a dog or cat? Do you have family or friends that have dogs or cats? Just curious, cause they are animals that eat other animals.

[fresian.m]

It is completely appropriate to feed your snake meat. Animals in the wild kill other animals for food... this is their survival and it's completely natural. Snakes are one of my favorite animals despite my love for small animals.

I don't eat meat... but eating meat is not necessary for my survival. For snakes it is. For a lot of wild animals it is.

[Duffinvt]

There is no way around a reptile's need for "whole prey" food requirements and meat is meat. There really isn't a difference between a dog eating beef or chicken and a snake eating mice.



As far as your question about reptiles being pets. No, I don't think wild animals should be pets. That is exactly what reptiles are. They are wild animals. It doesn't matter if they were bred in captivity or not. A tiger remains a wild animal even if it's family have been bred in captivity for generations, so does a snake.

I believe that the reptiles currently living in captivity should be homed through rescues and sanctuaries that truly have the animals best interests and care in mind and will find suitable homes. Sales, import and breeding of reptiles, for the pet trade, should end and we should evolve past our desire to keep wild exotics in captivity for our amusement.

But then again, where do we draw the line? Dogs, cats, cavies, rats... all of our pets were once wild animals. They've been bred in captivity for generations also. What makes them different than a pet snake or a pet tiger?

[Chantilly]

I really enjoy all the thoughtful discussion! I'm curious about "wild animals should not be kept as pets". While I agree with this, I would not equate a corn snake to a lion/tiger. A corn snake is less likely to endanger someone then a dog, or even a cat. I think enough is known about their care to provide them with healthy, stimulating environments. This is not true for all reptiles, but I just think corns seem like great pets.

Is the goal of a non-breeder/pro-animal welfare stance that no animals will eventually be kept as pets? While I realize, in truth, this ideal may be unattainable - the logical conclusion seems to be: No breeding, adoption only = eventually no captive bred animals remain. In a perfect world, where no pets needed homes, would domestic dogs and cats exist? At one point, cats, dogs and even guinea pigs were wild animals, that were domesticated over many generations.

[KDonohue]

Dogs cats and cavies I can speak for. All three of these animals have been domesticated, which is far different than just breeding in captivity. Different breeds of dogs have been domesticated for different working purposes while cas have been domesticated as hunters for farms and homes. Cavies were domesticated as a food source like cows or chickens. None of these animals are found in the wild. Their wild relatives do still exist but you could not turn a dog out into a pack of wolves and expect it to survive.
To answer the real question here I would fully support breeding a captive snake's food source in the home to ensure that all animals involved are receiving the best and most appropriate care possible. I agree with previous posters that it is necessary that you are able to follow through with a humane method of euthanasia.

[Duffinvt]

This really is a good discussion ! I have often wondered the same as the above poster. I know the reality is that we'll always have unwanted dogs, cats, and other pets. But what if there really did come a time when there were no unwanted pets.. would breeding be OK to supply the demand for pets? And, we all know the environment has changed due to the huge demand for beef and other meat animals, including huge parts of the world devoted to growing their feedstock (which can ruin waterways due to chemical runoff and overuse of the land, pollution due to the processing of all that feedstuff.. etc, etc.). But.. our cats and dogs eat huge amounts of meat-based food also. Fewer pets would mean much less of our environment ruined due to their meat-eating requirements.

[Paula]

What makes them different than a pet snake or a pet tiger?

Snakes and tigers and similar animals haven't been domesticated, nor should they be domesticated for recreational (pet) purposes. That being the case, they are animals which operate on base instincts and have basic needs which can't be met in a household pet type environment.

As VJ said, those reptiles that are currently in captivity should be homed in well-prepared rescues or sanctuaries and the practice of breeding them for our amusement and happiness needs to end.

I know the reality is that we'll always have unwanted dogs, cats, and other pets. But what if there really did come a time when there were no unwanted pets.. would breeding be OK to supply the demand for pets? And, we all know the environment has changed due to the huge demand for beef and other meat animals, including huge parts of the world devoted to growing their feedstock (which can ruin waterways due to chemical runoff and overuse of the land, pollution due to the processing of all that feedstuff.. etc, etc.). But.. our cats and dogs eat huge amounts of meat-based food also. Fewer pets would mean much less of our environment ruined due to their meat-eating requirements.

To me, it seems somewhat pointless to have discussion on the "what ifs" because as you said, the reality is that we'll always have more dogs and cats and other animals than there are homes.

Similarly, the reality is that as long as there's money to be made, the production of live animals for food (for both human and animal consumption) will continue on.

Rather than entertaining a hypothetical situation that will likely never come to pass, to me it's more important to better the practices which will likely always continue in our country and others, which includes finding ways to better the lives, treatment and deaths of the animals that are bred and raised for feed.

[VoodooJoint]

But then again, where do we draw the line? Dogs, cats, cavies, rats... all of our pets were once wild animals. They've been bred in captivity for generations also. What makes them different than a pet snake or a pet tiger?

If there is no difference between a dog, cat, cavy, etc and a tiger, corn snake, etc then please do tell me where the natural, wild environments are for the following animals:

Labrador retriever
Dachshund
Domestic Short Haired cat (any color)
Persian cat
Texel Guinea Pigs
American Guinea pigs
Flemish Giant Rabbits
Dutch Rabbits
Dumbo Rat
Standard White Rat

Now, please tell me the natural environments for the following animals

Siberian Tiger
Lion
Cornsnake
Rat snake
Ball python
Bearded dragon
hermit crab
Iguana
Hyacinth Macaw
Cockatoo (any type)
Sugar Glider

Are you seeing the bigger picture? The first list of animals have NO natural environment. They have reached a point of domestication where they no longer have any natural niche and bear only the most rudimentary resemblance with their wild cousins.

The second list of animals all have natural habitats and if you were to compare two, standard examples of those animals, one born in captivity and one from the wild, you would not be able to distinguish a difference.

Humans need to stop enslaving wild animals for our own pleasure. They especially need to stop specially breeding "morphs" and crosses like Ligers, wolf-dogs, "morph geckos" and Bengal cats. I think there are plenty of domesticated animals to choose from without messing with wild animals as well.

I would not equate a corn snake to a lion/tiger.

Why not? Is a corn snake less worthy of respect or are you simply basing this on the fact that they don't pose much of a danger? By that reasoning people should be allowed to take any type of animal from the wild they want. Maybe we should start selling Toucans and flamingos, why not have a sea turtle in a tank? Kiwis and platypuses are unique and fairly benign maybe they would make a good pet?

I think enough is known about their care to provide them with healthy, stimulating environments. This is not true for all reptiles, but I just think corns seem like great pets.

Enough is known about dogs cats and guinea pigs that people can provide them with healthy stimulating environments but they are often chained outside, fed bad diets and neglected. It's worse with exotics because their needs are MUCH more specific. Most of those reptiles and amphibians you see in petstores and sold at reptile expos will be dead within a year because of poor care.

Is the goal of a non-breeder/pro-animal welfare stance that no animals will eventually be kept as pets?

That certainly is not my goal. My goal is to reduce overpopulation, increase the care level and responsibility of animal owners and to stop the keeping of wild animals by the general public. People who want a wild animal need to have a license and certification proving that they are truly capable and knowledgeable to have that animal. Wild animals, no matter how benign, are not ours to toy with.

I'm not saying you should not have your snake. If you adopted it and didn't buy it then you are doing the right thing. I happen to have a ball python in my rescue (technically in sanctuary as I will not rehome her). She will live out her days well cared for but I will never support the sale of these types of animals as pets. My python would rather be in a rainforest. She is not like my dogs or cats who seek out my company or any of my other domesticated pets that have no natural habitat.

Keep the ones that are already in captivity safe and love them but don't support the continued enslavement of creatures that truly belong in the wild. Instead do all you can to protect their environment so they can live as nature intended.

[Chantilly]

Duffinvt, you brought up a great point about the sustainability of meat-based pet diets. Very interesting! A quick google search reveals that "vegetarian/vegan" dog and cat foods (with synthetic taurine) do exist. While I don't know if these diets are nutritionally sound, it makes you wonder how such diets would contribute to sustainability problems.

KDonohue, it seems that what you're saying is: the domesticated animals we have currently were domesticated for a purpose, either through pest eradication, working purposes, food, etc.. With modern technology and vegetarian/vegan diets, many if not all of these pets are no longer necessary, and provide only recreational/companionship purposes. Is it better for these animals to be phased out, instead of born only to be pets?

VoodooJoint, I understand the difference between domesticated and non-domesticated animals. I wasn't arguing that snakes are domesticated. And yes, I was saying I wouldn't equate a cornsnake to a tiger, etc., was because of the danger level, and the ability to replicate their natural environment. I much better understand your viewpoint now, and I found your post very persuasive and easy to understand. In general: Animals with natural habitats are better off/belong there, not in captivity.

But what happens to domestic animals? Are they slowly phased out because they no longer server a purpose? In a perfect world, all humans would be vegetarians, and cows, chickens, etc, wouldn't be needed for food. Dogs, cats, and horses all have modern day "working" applications. Is it immoral to keep domesticated animals for pure enjoyment/companionship? Why is it wrong to ask what would happen if we were able to, as a society, virtually eradicate unwanted and homeless pets?

[Chantilly]

Also Voodoo, I really like your idea about requiring licenses to own wild pets. I would totally be for this.

The snake I adopted is 6 years old, and only weighted 180g when I got her (her adult weight should be 300g+). The owner was only feeding her a 5g item every 2 weeks "or so". She also had an unregulated, tiny heating pad that wasn't nearly large enough for her enclosure. The number of improperly kept reptiles is alarming to me.

[VoodooJoint]

Why is it wrong to ask what would happen if we were able to, as a society, virtually eradicate unwanted and homeless pets?

It isn't wrong to ask that question but It's not one easily answered at this time. I cannot speak for every rescuer but that long term issue is not something I worry about at this time. I concentrate on the over 5 million animal getting killed in U.S. shelters every year and the millions more that die on the street, and in neglectful/abusive homes. That mountain is plenty big enough and I we need to concentrate on climbing it and not worrying about the next mountain.

People are fighting tooth and nail against simple spay/neuter legislation and stronger breeder licenses and controls. With that kind of ignorance to fight I (we all) need to keep our heads in the current game--ending animal overpopulation and suffering.

If we manage to reach that goal I think that the rest will work itself out. Breeding, in it's entirety, will not be stopped any more then laws have managed to stop crime. Hopefully, the achievement of the main goal will lead to irresponsible breeders/owners being shut down and the glut of excess animals being created, ended. At the very least we need to get the intake/outtake of shelter/rescue animals balanced. We need to end the killing of "surplus" animals.

[Camerafreak]

Paula how does my family having a dog or a cat deal with me being sickened by animals that eat other animals? I can't prevent my family or friends from buying these kind of animals. All MY animals eat veggies and pellets. My mother has a dog and I really have nothing to do with it. If I'm asked to let her out or something like that I let her out but I don't have anything else to do with her. My moms dog is smelly anyways and I can't stand the smell of her. I really don't think you should be questioning me about this kind of stuff anyways because I have absolutely no control over it. I wouldn't have an animal of my own that was a carnivore if it sickened me.

[blackarrow]

Camerafreak, you're the only one with any possibility of control over your own reaction, and you can do so if you try. I have a completely vegan friend with both small herbivorous pets and six dogs, and she feeds and treats them all appropriately and without qualm. It's not your dog's "fault" she's designed to eat meat - and in fact it isn't even a negative that she's designed that way, carnivores are just as crucial a part of the food chain as the herbivores, she isn't something "bad" in the world. (It would, of course, be cruel for you actually to leave her to fend for herself rather than deign to feed her.)

Oddly enough, your family dog may well be smelly due to something being inappropriate thing in her diet (corn is a common allergen - dogs respond to most allergens by getting stinky ear or skin infections.) One of the bonuses of me feeding my dogs raw meat is that they don't smell.

[cfoster1966]

None of these animals are found in the wild. Their wild relatives do still exist but you could not turn a dog out into a pack of wolves and expect it to survive.

I do understand the point you are trying to make. However, wild cavies DO still exist and live in many parts of the world.

[VoodooJoint]

I do understand the point you are trying to make. However, wild cavies DO still exist and live in many parts of the world.

I have never seen a wild herd of silkie, Peruvian, texel, satin or even american guinea pigs in their natural habitat. I'm curious where are their natural ranges? What purposes do the different hair coats and textures serve? What about the colors--are dalmation spots and Tri-coloring some sort of camouflage?

Please do a comparison between wild cavies and domesticated ones. There are such completely marked differences that it's nearly impossible to imagine they are even related. The Guinea Pigs we keep as pets are domesticated animals, much like dogs and cats are.

Here are a few pictures of wild cavies
History of the Guinea Pig (Cavy, Cuy, Cavia porcellus) Click on Patagonian cavies
File:Kerodon rupestris.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Wildmeerschweinchen-06.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
ADW: Cavia: Pictures - in this page please note that the last 2 pictures are of domesticated guinea pigs. Also note that they have a different Latin name classification meaning that they have been recognized as a slightly different species.

From this thread http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...-reptiles.html