Adopt vs. Buy: Adopted (yes, adopted) from PetSmart

[blackarrow]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

ALL you are thinking of the doing (and promoting) in this statement, is FEELING GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF for a few hours and then DUMPING the REAL PROBLEM AND COST on SOMEONE ELSE. This is exactly the attitude and approach that quite frankly, really ticks me off! STOP IT. Get over yourself. And I'm sorry but after all the explanations on why this is a bad thing, people come back to this self-serving, LAZY, naive attitude -- like it's a good thing. It is NOT. It should not be encouraged -- to others or to yourself.

I think I'm gonna frame this for the people who come to our dog rescue, having bought a puppy or two off a crummy breeder "because they couldn't just leave it there!" for the purposes of dumping it on us - and then refusing to give a donation toward its CARE because "they've 'helped' all they can by getting us the dog." Yeah, you sure "helped" - helped ensure the breeder has a nice house and helped put us under financial and logistical strain and helped guarantee the parent dogs will be bred again the very next heat cycle she has, isn't that special. (These are often the same types of people who can't bring themselves to adopt from rescue because there's nothing pathetic about the dogs in our care, and they want the warm fuzzies of getting one out of a bad situation - even though it means promoting a bad situation.) With "friends" of rescue like that, who needs enemies?

[Cogni]

It looks to me like it is necessary to act on several fronts at once. But each person must decide how to act in their own conscience. If everything were clearcut, all animal loving people would act and feel exactly the same way about these piggies in the pet store drawer. But conscience does not evolve all at once. It may seem clear cut if all your life and energy is poured into rescuing animals and you have thought through all the issues.
It always seems to me clearcut that people should not give money to beggars on the street. Rather, people should support homeless and other shelters and get involved in political action of various kinds. I've been involved in homeless shelters and charities and those who run them are adamant about this, for lots of good reasons. Yet in a face-to-face situation in which we see suffering, our humanity simply overrides this knowledge. Compassion in the face of obvious misery can become impossible to stamp down and remember "the principles" of how we can better help people (or animals). The case of the piggies in the drawer is absolutely analogous.

[Matt Ceja]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

On a totally separate note, I just want to say that yes, people are instructed on how to look for a healthy guinea pig. And I'm not talking about pet stores right now, I'm speaking in general, so let's say to adopt from a rescue.

Of course, on those very rare occasions when I've had an adopter come and ask me to show them my most unadoptable guinea pigs -- the ugly, the old, the sick -- I want to kiss the ground they walk on. So, I bless the people like that who have such room in their hearts and homes for those animals. Hopefully, they are smart enough and do it the right way and ADOPT rather than buy.

Well, I was making a reference to pet store piggies being sick and they cost around 20 dollars. For that same price I could adopt a healthy pig. Nothing wrong with adopting a sick or old pig of course. I should have been more specific when I wrote it. At least if you adopt a sick pig you are going to know what it's needs are. Buying from a pet store/breeder is like rolling the dice.

[blackarrow]

Originally Posted by Cogni

Yet in a face-to-face situation in which we see suffering, our humanity simply overrides this knowledge. Compassion in the face of obvious misery can become impossible to stamp down and remember "the principles" of how we can better help people (or animals). The case of the piggies in the drawer is absolutely analogous.

You know what? It's been bugging me throughout this thread how many people have been saying things such as they would have taken the pigs from the drawer because they're only "human." If by "human," the people meant "fallible," well, that's one thing, but I suspect most people who have said that kind of thing have been using "human" to mean "more compassionate than those who wouldn't have taken them." And I'm sorry, but there's nothing compassionate in my book about taking the short view and looking at those two pigs TO THE EXCLUSION of looking at the long view. I have a picture on my computer right now of 5 very sad-looking puppies of a local piece-of-garbage breeder who WOULD NOT BE IN THIS SITUATION TODAY if "compassionate" people hadn't done the previous litter the "favor" of making sure they snapped them up and dumped them on us. I don't even want to think of how pathetic the parents look if these are the puppies. But I have to think about those things. It's a luxury for those who get to "do what their conscience tells them" that they don't have to bother to think of the next batch, like I have to, and that they get to do whatever happens to make them feel all warm and fuzzy, regardless of how many others it hurts who don't deserve to be hurt, and regardless of how many others it helps who don't deserve to be helped.

[Cogni]

Actually, I think of it as being "weak". It is human frailty to act on immediate compassion rather than focus on bad consequences of many such weak actions. Sometimes emotion does trump reason. Let's not claim "more compassionate than thou", for either the ones who'd leave the drawer piggies or those who would take the drawer piggies. At least the ones here who admit they could not do other than rescue those piggies if they saw them would get them forever homes.

[Peggysu]

Originally Posted by Matt Ceja

Well, I was making a reference to pet store piggies being sick and they cost around 20 dollars. For that same price I could adopt a healthy pig. Nothing wrong with adopting a sick or old pig of course. I should have been more specific when I wrote it. At least if you adopt a sick pig you are going to know what it's needs are. Buying from a pet store/breeder is like rolling the dice.

It's so much more then this. If you buy a pet from a pet store yes you could get a sick guinea pigs or a pregnant one, but more then anything your contributing to the animal trade industry that treats the animals horribly and gives the animals under its care poor value. You already compared it to a can of coke so I know you know that.

What keeps me from supporting pet stores isn't the fact that I could possibly get a sick animal it's where the animals come from and how they are treated and what will replace those pets. I don't even show my face in a pet store, the only time I do is if I have time to go stir up some trouble and demand that they clean the cage, give some hay or make sure their bedding is approprioate.

I've said this before in other threads, but I don't have four guinea pigs for nothing, all but one are guinea pigs that needed to be re-homed because someones kid has lost interest or they don't have enough time for them anymore. I never wanted four, but I have room for four so why not. They obviously needed homes, thank you PetStupid and PetNo.

I can't change what I've already done when I purchased one, but I can make a difference now, it may not be a lot but if ten other people do the same thing I do, it makes a difference in the long run.

[akstrohm]

Originally Posted by Cogni

At least the ones here who admit they could not do other than rescue those piggies if they saw them would get them forever homes.

For people who cannot help but take the pigs, I strongly suggest that you don't put yourself in that situation. Buy your supplies online or from stores that do not sell animals.

[blackarrow]

Originally Posted by Cogni

At least the ones here who admit they could not do other than rescue those piggies if they saw them would get them forever homes.

I don't think there is benefit in me being mindful of the particular-animal benefit as compared to the bucketful of animal harm - people who are prone to doing this kind of thing do a good enough job of focusing exclusively on the particular animal all by their lonesomes, in my book.

[CavySpirit]

Re: Cogni's homeless analogy:

I think broadly speaking, it's analogous. I think in the specific situations that you've brought up, there are a number of differences in cause and effect of actions taken.

In the case of the pigs in the stores, I don't think it's a matter of clear-cut or not, it's a matter of education, knowledge and awareness of the big picture. When you really know the big picture and really understand the consequences of your actions, then the action to be taken is obvious. But it's not an issue of thinking through all the issues if you have no knowledge of all the issues. That's what this forum is for--making people aware.

If I routinely give to the homeless charities--say $100/month AND I give $10 to a hungry person on the street, I don't necessarily look at them as exclusive decisions. Nor do I look at my $10 as contributing to the cause and increase of homelessness on the streets.

If I see a homeless person, is there something I can do right then and there to affect that particular person's life with a few phone calls perhaps that will have a dramatic change on his or her homelessness and others to follow? It seems to me that if it were that easy, we'd all have those numbers on our speed dial on our cell phones. Does my giving an organization $10 later help this particular homeless person? I doubt it. Yes, there would be some trickle down effect at some point I suppose. Should I give to those charities? Certainly. I have personally donated quite a lot over the years.

But nature of the problems are pretty different. People have the power of affecting the lives of the specific animals in need right then and there. Their actions become an immediate choice of compounding the problem or not. I really do not believe that my giving a cold, hungry homeless person $10 out of compassion contributes to that person's homelessness nor directly causes more homelessness of others to follow in addition to penalizing and causing more expense and heartache for the organizations trying to help him.

-----------------------------------

On to your more recent post:

I believe it IS more compassionate to LEAVE the pigs there and do nothing, rather than take them -- even as you say 'to find them forever homes' -- especially when finding them forever homes means dumping them on a rescue.

It is FAR more compassionate to leave the pigs and do something. That is the best option.

This earlier statement that you made: "But each person must decide how to act in their own conscience." It's concerning to me, because it's like a blanket get of jail free card. It's the same excuse as "I'm doing the best I can." Well, sometimes your best just isn't good enough and no excuses will do. Similarly, doing what your conscience dictates doesn't always make it right.

[Paula]

Originally Posted by Cogni

At least the ones here who admit they could not do other than rescue those piggies if they saw them would get them forever homes.

Not necessarily, no. And even if they did, can they also give forever homes to those that come behind those poor pigs? Not likely. And so the animals after those "rescued" pigs suffer the same fate those poor pigs in the drawer in the first place no doubt would have. How does that help anything beyond those two pigs? It doesn't, and that's why taking these two pigs not only isn't rescuing them, it's very much anti-rescue in my opinion.

My house is full of guinea pigs that came from wretched situations, and not a single one of them has come from a breeder or a pet store (at least not when acquired by me). So if a person feels so compelled to "save" a guinea pig, fine, there are countless legitimate ways to do it that don't require directly contributing to the suffering of those that will absolutely come behind those you "save" from a pet store.

[Matt Ceja]

Originally Posted by Peggysu

I've said this before in other threads, but I don't have four guinea pigs for nothing, all but one are guinea pigs that needed to be re-homed because someones kid has lost interest or they don't have enough time for them anymore. I never wanted four, but I have room for four so why not. They obviously needed homes, thank you PetStupid and PetNo.

I am going to adopt more pigs soon. I want to give at least 6 pigs a home. Then kind of see what happens from there. If I have time for more pigs I will probably volunteer to foster for the local GP rescue. Guinea Pigs are by far the most rewarding animal I think I have cared for. Which is why I don't mind spending so much time on them.

I am really not even a big animal person... I used to put all my extra money towards shooting and shooting related gear because that is what I did for a living. Now I am spending most of it on pigs! They have become my retirement hobby and a huge part of the family.

[blackarrow]

That's quite a shift, Matt!

[Matt Ceja]

Originally Posted by blackarrow

That's quite a shift, Matt!

It has been a huge shift and for the best. My wife laughs about it all the time. I went from the military to PMC work and my life was oriented around combat. I even trained 2 hours a day 7 days a week during my free time. Now I am hanging out with my family and raising pigs.

I have always based my life around service. Now that I am disabled I can't get around as well as I used to and I can't work. So that is why I am considering fostering pigs. It would keep me busy and from my home. It might sound silly but I feel like a total scum bag if I am not doing good things for others.

[Tessa Bea]

Originally Posted by Matt Ceja

It has been a huge shift and for the best. My wife laughs about it all the time.

It's the same way in my house! My husband would never tell his battle buddies that he loves the pigs just as much, if not more than I do. He sneaks out to call me everyday at lunch and check up on how they are doing! Heh!

[distancel]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

Well, I'm sorry to hear it. What do you think a rescue is?? It's someone just like you. ALL you are thinking of the doing (and promoting) in this statement, is FEELING GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF for a few hours and then DUMPING the REAL PROBLEM AND COST on SOMEONE ELSE. This is exactly the attitude and approach that quite frankly, really ticks me off! STOP IT. Get over yourself. And I'm sorry but after all the explanations on why this is a bad thing, people come back to this self-serving, LAZY, naive attitude -- like it's a good thing. It is NOT. It should not be encouraged -- to others or to yourself.

Yes, it's upsetting, but there are other things you can do (that also don't take much time) to feel good about yourself. Rather than becoming part of the problem, become part of the solution.

I said quite clearly that I don't go to petstores so I don't really see how I can possibly be part of a problem. I was simply putting myself in the OP's shoes and yes I would not have been able to leave the pigs there in those conditions. I'm not sure why you think I would be dumping the problem and cost onto someone else because obviously I would make sure they were well before I rehomed them. It's certainly not about 'feeling good about myself' , it's more a fact of I don't think I could knowingly leave an animal when I had the option to take them away from their mistreatment.

But this is completely hypothical because I don't step foot in a petstore because it upsets me to see the animals not kept in good condition. I guess I just should not have commented at all, I'm very sorry that I did.

[AshleyKay]

Yay! Im happy for them, and for what it's worth, I consider it adoption. Ive read other posts about people who didnt "adopt" and people have told them they could/should have looked on CL to "adopt"... every single ad I have ever read on CL is someone rehoming their piggie for money...first person who pays up gets them..there is by no means a screening process. Either way, Im glad they're out of that drawer..how cruel

Originally Posted by Yoshi&Sebastian

First off, they'd already replaced the two pigs. They were stuck in a STORAGE ROOM in a DRAWER.

As far as putting them in quarantine from eachother - they'd already had contact in the two drawers but were separated from eachother. Anything one had the other is going to have.

I don't see how I contributed to their cycle of breeding if I removed neglected pigs from their property without providing them with monetary compensation.

Go attack someone else to overcompensate for your sorry little life.

[MissFormosa]

I noticed in the beginning of this thread a few posters were pointing out that the abuse or neglectful conditions could have been reported, which I think it should have been. Then there was some uncertainty on what the procedure is and who to call, and whom would respond, etc. Well, there's a lot more you can do than just call animal control.

I'm not an expert and this may not be the way some people would go about this, but here's what I would do in case you encounter this situation again whether it is in a pet store, a rescue or a shelter (of course, there are different procedures involved in reporting these - I'm just giving a basic outline).

I had my own struggle with a rescue that was basically a mess. Gladly, the rescue cleaned up and corrected a lot of what I had reported. Here is my post on it: Horrible Neglectful Rescue in Brooklyn. Of course I was angry and emotional and wanted to take on the world about this, but in the end, rational thinking and persistence as well as follow up seemed to be the best avenue. I did the best I could and learned a lot from the experience.

I think as an animal lover, you have nothing more powerful than your heart, eyes and your voice. You have a heart, therefore you care enough to help. If you see something wrong, report it. If you believe in the welfare of animals, speak up and educate. Remember, these animals cannot advocate for themselves. You must be the one to speak for them. Don't be like the people who just turn their backs and walk away.

Here goes:

When you witness it

> If you have a cell phone with a camera, take pictures. It is very easy with some cell phones now to simply look like you are dialing a number or texting when you are actually snapping a photo. This provides evidence to back up what you saw. Some phones even have video.

> Look for other red flags. Cages too small, overcrowding, animals with injuries, etc.

Afterwards

> Write down exactly what you saw, heard, smelled, what was said to you, the day and the time of the incident, even the store manager's name - whatever information you have. You will need this information later and want to get it on paper before you forget it.

> In my situation, I also made a log of who I contacted as far as reporting my situation, what day, time, and who I spoke to and also notes for follow-up. It's good to follow up and be persistent - sometimes you have to keep prodding to get things done.

> Find out what constitutes animal cruelty in your area and if there are any special laws pertaining to pet stores. You can search for animal laws at http://www.animallaw.com or here on the ASPCA site. Pet-Abuse.com also has a useful chart. And here is a pdf document from the Human Society listing state laws. You may very well find this information useful in making reports.

Report it

> Contact the ASPCA and Humane Society. They will direct you on how to report the neglect you observed, as well as make investigations of their own. If your city doesn't have these organizations, call local law enforcement for information.

> I'd contact your State Dept of Agriculture and Markets. Many regulate pet store conditions. Many states require a pet store to have a license to operate and this would probably be the department that oversees that. Please note, I said contact the State Department, not the USDA. I thought I saw someone mention Atlanta. Assuming this is Georgia, it looks like you would indeed contact Georgia State Department of Agriculture's Animal Division.

> In addition, make a complaint with the State Department of Health and Hygiene to investigate unsanitary animal facilities, if you feel the conditions the animals were kept in were unsanitary enough to be cause for concern as far as the law is concerned and sufficient enough to make a report to this department. This is where your research on your state's animal laws may have come in handy. In my state, just offensive odor coming from an animal facility is enough to make a report to the department.

> Write to the store as well as to the store's headquarters letting them know what you witnessed.

Take it a step further

> Make local animal rights/animal activism/animal lovers groups aware of your situation. Gather all the support you can. Many voices are more powerful than one. There are also many online groups that would be interested in your story.

> Attend a community board meeting or community council in your town. You have every right available to you to make the community aware of what you saw.

> Contact your local paper. They may have an interest in what you have to say. Any negative publicity will hopefully help improve the conditions.

> Notify the Better Business Bureau and make a report. You could probably go there right now, look up your local Petsmart, and see complaints made against them.

> Contact your state representative (or even your local representative) and ask them to enact legislation protecting animals in pet stores. Give them examples from what you witnessed. Then, importantly, support animal legislation!

> Peta has a special report you can fill out just for blowing the whistle on Petsmart cruelty here.

> In addition to making reports, I also took the time to write, write, write. I believe in the power of a written statement, especially in this day in age. Not only that, it provides physical documentation. I wrote to everyone I could explaining my situation. Even if I was sure they probably couldn't do anything to stop it, at least I was making them aware of the situation. These sorts of things stay on people's minds and you never know who might be able to pass on your information. Some people I wrote actual letters on letterhead (or good paper) and some I wrote via email. A lot of my work was redundant, but for the welfare of animals, I thought it was worth my efforts to notify someone even if they are just going to turn around and forward my info to the ASPCA. I explained the facts exactly as they were and tried not to put too much of my opinion in it. I wrote what I saw, heard, smelled, quoted what I was told, gave my honest impression of the place, etc. I did not say things like "Mr. so and so is so darn incompetent he should never be trusted with an animal!" or "This place should be shut down, fumigated and reported to the health department!", etc. You have to imagine what the reader, most likely an intelligent individual with very little time to spare, is going to get from your letter. If they get a paragraph into your letter and it sounds like you are just whining about something, I doubt they will read the rest or take it seriously. Be very to the point. I know it is hard to write this way when you are emotionally tied up into it, but you must try. Be sure to state what laws you believe are being broken. I ended my letter (or email) demanding strongly exactly what I wanted to see done. I requested an investigation be conducted, a request that action must be taken immediately to ensure the welfare of the animals and reduce their mistreatment and suffering, and that if they (the reader) were unable to help, to please direct me to someone that can or pass on my information.

Most importantly, don't forget to follow up on all of your actions!

Avoid more heartbreak

Finally, you can avoid encountering the heartbreaking situation of finding animals in abusive or neglectful conditions by NOT shopping at a store that sells animals. It's that simple. Avoid the heartbreak. Do not give them your business. Do not give them your money. By doing so, you support them.

There are lots of animals out there right now in shelters and rescues that are awaiting a loving forever home just as much as the ones in the pet stores. Only the ones in the rescues or shelters will not be replaced by more merchandise ordered from pet mills. It's a good start to supporting stopping the vicious cycle.

[CavySpirit]

Great post, MissFormosa. We'll add to the stickies somewhere.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by AshleyKay

Yay! Im happy for them, and for what it's worth, I consider it adoption. Ive read other posts about people who didnt "adopt" and people have told them they could/should have looked on CL to "adopt"... every single ad I have ever read on CL is someone rehoming their piggie for money...first person who pays up gets them..there is by no means a screening process. Either way, Im glad they're out of that drawer..how cruel

Worth nothing.

What is your problem, anyway?! Are you just trying to find something to be ornery about for the sheer joy of it? You're SUPPOSED to put adoption fees --that is MONEY -- on ANY ad when trying to rehome a pet. And that 'by no means' indicates that someone will sell them to the first person who comes along with the money. What do you think a screening process is anyway? The screening process happens AFTER someone contacts the person about their listing and shows interest. You've no idea what anyone's screening process is or isn't.

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Originally Posted by AshleyKay

Yay! Im happy for them, and for what it's worth, I consider it adoption. Ive read other posts about people who didnt "adopt" and people have told them they could/should have looked on CL to "adopt"... every single ad I have ever read on CL is someone rehoming their piggie for money...first person who pays up gets them..there is by no means a screening process. Either way, Im glad they're out of that drawer..how cruel

So you think they should be 'free'?

Adoption fees are necessary when rehoming. Maybe you should read up on free to good home pets - many end up abused, neglected, resold to labs for research purposes, small animals end up as snake food, etc.

I'd rather pay an adoption fee to someone legitimately rehoming their pet than buy at a pet store or breeder. Adoption doesn't always mean a high screening process.