Some people are so...

[Amsley246]

Originally Posted by 4piggers

Neglect? For having a store bought cage? Feeding them yogurt drops? No FRESH food? The ASPCA will do nothing above and beyond this either...

A store bought cage is only considered neglect on this board...the law (at least here) only requires like a 10 inch by 10 inch cage.

Diet? As long as they are being fed...they arent going to measure what the calcium levels in the food are.

Shelter wont supply toys either...or hold them more then she is. Or at all for that matter.

They will, however, cut the nails and clean a cage.

On that note...since Im within an hour of you...if you need my help taking them in, I can and will do that. Even if this means you take them, and I pick the up from you...or get her my information, and have her contact me...however you want or can work it. Just know Im here to help.

I dont know if you missed all the other information or not, but there was mention that the girl didn't clean their cage at all, meaning they lived in filthy conditions and never paid any attention to them. I do believe those are grounds for Neglect. No animal should have to live like that. Yes, those other reasons you stated are not as critical, but animals constantly living in their own waste is not healthy in any way.

[ferndalezoo]

It's hard to see something we all care passionately about being cared for in the wrong way. I hate seeing dogs kept outdoors, pet rats kept in fishtanks, etc. Unfortunately, from a legal standpoint, none of that qualifies as "neglect" in the sense that animal control isn't going to come bursting through your doors and take the animals. Even a dirty cage is more likely to get a "you really need to clean this more often!" than a seizure if the animals have food (even crappy food) and water. I'm not saying it's right, that's just how it is.

If your friend has actual post-partum depression, when you talk to her about the guinea pigs, what she hears is this: "blablablabla...YOU SUCK!!!", even though you're not saying anything of the sort. A depressed person doesn't think clearly, and they interpret a lot of things in a more personal way than it was probably intended.

I would come at this from another angle completely. I'd tell her you'd noticed she seems like she has a lot on her plate since Tabitha was born (If there's anything worse than PPD, it's PPD with a high-needs baby!) And ask if maybe she hadn't thought about finding a new home for the pigs to lighten her load. Even in pet-store cages, they'd be better off in a home that would spend the time to clean their cages and provide a proper diet, so don't worry about the cage thing just yet. See if she'd agree to that.

[4piggers]

Originally Posted by ferndalezoo

It's hard to see something we all care passionately about being cared for in the wrong way. I hate seeing dogs kept outdoors, pet rats kept in fishtanks, etc. Unfortunately, from a legal standpoint, none of that qualifies as "neglect" in the sense that animal control isn't going to come bursting through your doors and take the animals. Even a dirty cage is more likely to get a "you really need to clean this more often!" than a seizure if the animals have food (even crappy food) and water. I'm not saying it's right, that's just how it is.

If your friend has actual post-partum depression, when you talk to her about the guinea pigs, what she hears is this: "blablablabla...YOU SUCK!!!", even though you're not saying anything of the sort. A depressed person doesn't think clearly, and they interpret a lot of things in a more personal way than it was probably intended.

I would come at this from another angle completely. I'd tell her you'd noticed she seems like she has a lot on her plate since Tabitha was born (If there's anything worse than PPD, it's PPD with a high-needs baby!) And ask if maybe she hadn't thought about finding a new home for the pigs to lighten her load. Even in pet-store cages, they'd be better off in a home that would spend the time to clean their cages and provide a proper diet, so don't worry about the cage thing just yet. See if she'd agree to that.

This is exactly my point. And I did mention, all they would do is clip nails and clean the cage IF they were to take them. But first, all she is going to get is a warning...*please keep the cage cleaner* and off they go.

I never said it was right I just said how it works.

[Paula]

Do you work for Animal Control where this person lives? If not then I'm not entirely sure how you're able to say with any certainty what WOULD happen if someone were called to her residence. At the very least, perhaps it would give this person an idea that what she's doing isn't acceptable for the animals. I'd expect that this person would be mortified to have someone come and check the situation out even if the animals weren't removed - and that might be all the perspective she needs to keep the cage clean and tend to the pets properly.

Originally Posted by 4piggers

A store bought cage is only considered neglect on this board...

That's true, but that's something many of us here are trying to change. Presumably, you feel the same way and that's why you have a membership here. Your negativity is not only unnecessary, it's counterproductive.

[4piggers]

I know now, I have said multiple times, esp to you, that I work rescue. Yes I know how it works, I get calls saying can you help, I went on a call with a friend because someone said the birds cages had too much poop in them, as in hasnt cleaned in months, and he was unable to give them any interaction. We were told to check the other surroundings, his ability to care for the animals, and pass on information, establish a relationship with him...to be there for possible future help if he should contact them for it.

Trying to get it changed....yes I get that. Do I think the actual law will change? No. Do I think that we should pass on how it is *better* for them yes.

Why do you insist on telling me Im negative? Because I speak the truth? Sorry it is reality that the SPCA will do nothing in this case. And what will it achieve? She calls them, they come in, turn the other cheek, and this woman goes on believing, that she is doing nothing wrong because she got in no trouble for it. And why? Because by law she isnt doing anything wrong.


I dont know how Im negative, I run an in home rescue, because I dont like the way the shelters have no time to spend hands on with the animal, and do not provide adequet food, cages etc. (And you may have missed, I offered my help to her.)

Im sorry if you dont like the reality of how it works, but...it is how it works.

[Paula]

SheriMartini came here and posted to get suggestions on how to help the situation her friend has her guinea pigs in. To summarily shut down suggestions people make is negative.

I know how it works, and I know the law isn't likely to be changing any time soon. That doesn't mean that people should stop trying to make it better for these animals. Shutting down a person's idea about calling the proper authorities because you "know how it works" isn't helpful. In fact, unless you've actually seen the conditions her friend has the guinea pigs living in, you can't say with any certainty at all what would or wouldn't happen. If it's something that could help the pigs, why not at least try it?

[4piggers]

Originally Posted by paula.m.moore

SheriMartini came here and posted to get suggestions on how to help the situation her friend has her guinea pigs in. To summarily shut down suggestions people make is negative.

I know how it works, and I know the law isn't likely to be changing any time soon. That doesn't mean that people should stop trying to make it better for these animals. Shutting down a person's idea about calling the proper authorities because you "know how it works" isn't helpful. In fact, unless you've actually seen the conditions her friend has the guinea pigs living in, you can't say with any certainty at all what would or wouldn't happen. If it's something that could help the pigs, why not at least try it?

Shut down? my foot I shut her down...I offered her my help. And to turn her in, when I know how things will work out, will just back step the help of the pigs...that is my suggestion.

Im sorry I forgot, only the owners and the mods know anything around here. Forget experience.


And to get back on track...since you personally have gotten on my case about taking a post in the wrong direction.

I am capable of driving up and helping you and her with these pigs. If you just want to give her my number to call me, and I can give her some help options Im willing and able to do so.

[blackarrow]

Originally Posted by paula.m.moore

SheriMartini came here and posted to get suggestions on how to help the situation her friend has her guinea pigs in. To summarily shut down suggestions people make is negative.

I know how it works, and I know the law isn't likely to be changing any time soon. That doesn't mean that people should stop trying to make it better for these animals. Shutting down a person's idea about calling the proper authorities because you "know how it works" isn't helpful. In fact, unless you've actually seen the conditions her friend has the guinea pigs living in, you can't say with any certainty at all what would or wouldn't happen. If it's something that could help the pigs, why not at least try it?

You might call it "negative" to say that animal control simply isn't going to take the pigs under these conditions - I call it "realistic" to say that. I frankly don't think it's "helpful" to keep suggesting she call animal control when animal control simply isn't going to be able to help, and it might actually hurt, because the normal response would be for the woman to cut off contact with Sherimartini, who sounds like she is their only advocate at present.

I'd suggest going about it from the standpoint of trying to get the woman the help she needs to be able to cope, and offering to help rehome the pigs might be the best way of doing that.

[Paula]

What I'm saying is that if it were me I'd be willing to do a lot of things to help the pigs in this situation, even if that means hurting a friend if she won't see the damage she's doing, because once she's able to look back on the situation with a clear mind, it might make more sense to her that I (as the friend) did what I did to help the animals since she wasn't able to at the time. And that would be the case for any animal that was being neglected or possibly abused.

[4piggers]

Originally Posted by paula.m.moore

What I'm saying is that if it were me I'd be willing to do a lot of things to help the pigs in this situation, even if that means hurting a friend if she won't see the damage she's doing, because once she's able to look back on the situation with a clear mind, it might make more sense to her that I (as the friend) did what I did to help the animals since she wasn't able to at the time. And that would be the case for any animal that was being neglected or possibly abused.

I understand this, but the way it works, they are not going to come in, see the conditions and jump to take her pigs. She may be given a warning, offered help, but they wont just take them...many factors have to come into play first. Like, No water, no food, sickly and starved (to the point of bones showing) Now if this happens, this woman will see what she is doing was not bad enough for them to take her animals, and she will think all she is doing it fine, and continue on with her care. Not to mention losing the trust of her friend, and at that point sheri will not have access to these pigs, and will no longer be trusted to turn to for help, when she realizes she really needs it.

There are better routes to take...sorry. Thats my full opinion and experience. And I stand by it fully. Whether others here support it or not. But this is my advice. Which...was asked for.

[Paula]

She may be given a warning, offered help, but they wont just take them

Wouldn't it be a good thing if she were offered help? That's my point. No, I'm not saying it's the only way or that it should be treated as the end-all solution to this problem. But, if it were something that could help, that would be good. At least I think so.

Obviously, the choice is kind of entirely up to SheriMartini in this case - this is her friend and she's living through the situation. If talking to her friend won't help, then it might be better to get a third party in to say the things she can't. Perhaps that's a rescue group (you?) and doesn't have to be animal control, but like I've said before, any help is good in a case like this one.

[4piggers]

Originally Posted by paula.m.moore

Wouldn't it be a good thing if she were offered help? That's my point. No, I'm not saying it's the only way or that it should be treated as the end-all solution to this problem. But, if it were something that could help, that would be good. At least I think so.

Obviously, the choice is kind of entirely up to SheriMartini in this case - this is her friend and she's living through the situation. If talking to her friend won't help, then it might be better to get a third party in to say the things she can't. Perhaps that's a rescue group (you?) and doesn't have to be animal control, but like I've said before, any help is good in a case like this one.

The help they will offer, is, clean the cage for that one day they show up. And give her a contact to someone...LIKE ME...to stay in contact with her. Which...Ive offered all ready

[ferndalezoo]

Any help might not actually be good, in this case. Remember that we are dealing with a case of PPD here. SheriMartini's friend isn't thinking clearly. If you've never had PPD, I hope you never have to go through it. You literally feel like you are walking around in a thick fog all the time. What little you are able to feel, you will take far too personally. Someone could offer you a peanut butter sandwich and you'd interpret it as "They think I'm FAT!!!" On top of that, she seems to have a high need baby, and is severely sleep deprived. I've been there, done that. He's 11 now, and still dramatic, but I remember his first few months extremely well. It was not an experience I'd wish on anyone. Frankly, I think that calling animal control on her wouldn't have a good outcome. I know that if someone had called AC on me when I was going through it, I would very likely not have been open to any further suggestions from that person. A rational person would take note, and step up their care, but a person going through PPD isn't rational. Is this a close (in proximity) friend, SheriMartini? Could you offer to physically help out (clean the cage a few times a week, etc?) until things calm down? Can you ask if she'd be willing to consider rehoming the pig, since her plate is so clearly full right now? Perhaps offer to cook dinner, or babysit Tabitha once in a while?

[Amsley246]

Like I said, I lived with Post Partum too. Everyone is different, but not all of us are ticking time bombs. Yes, I admit, when I had it, I had the tendacy to explode at random times, and I was occasionally (well, at least I thought occasionally) irrational, but at least I was able to take care of things like my baby, pets and household. But again eeryone is different, and nobody knows this girl, so we shouldn't presume as to what shes going to do. All we want is for those pigs to be treated better, Sheri asked for our help and some of us are trying to give it to her, whether or not we know what's going to happen. We need to stop arguing as to what's going to happen as none of us know how severe a condition those animals/that girl is in. I don't work in a shelter, nor do I work with any sort of authorities dealing with animals, but as a person with some sort of common sense, it's not right that those animals are having to live the way Sheri told us. Anybody would know it's not ok for an animal to live in it's own waste, it's not sanitary and it will make any animal sick.

Now this coming from my own brain, Sheri, why don't you try calling proper authorites, tell them what you know, and go from there. I think out of all of us, that they could tell you exactly what to do.

Sorry if what I wrote doesn't agree with anyone, I just thought that it was getting more about who was wrong and not about those pigs anymore! Sorry if I sounded like a mod as well, it's not my intention! In the words of the lady from the simpsons, will somebody please think about the children (or in this case, the piggies! ).

[gooberific]

I've suffered from depression, and post partum depression. My pigs were very therapeutic for me as I was coming off medication.

My son was a colicky little dude, and I had a major change in my life in addition to a baby - moving to a new city. I know that if I'd had pets before that point in my life, I wouldn't have been able to give them the TIME they needed, and I'm not sure I would have been able to give them the minimums they required. On top of it, I can tell you I would have been DEVASTATED if someone called the authorities to give me a warning, or to take my animals. Luckily, I have a wonderful husband who steps in when he sees me slacking or can tell my mood is down in the dumps.

What I believe might truly be helpful, is to offer to take them in while she is adjusting to life with the new baby. Keep them cleaned up, get them healthy (whether it is you, or finding another foster situation), and maybe give her a C&C cage when she is ready to take them back. Hopefully, it would help her understand a little.

Do you buy your hay in bulk? Have you tried sharing supplies with her?

Also, you'd mentioned having your fiance talk to her boyfriend (or whathaveyou). I think this is a wonderful idea, since he should really be helping with the baby -- even if it means cleaning piggy cages because your friend cannot/will not. :P

[Adorable]

Originally Posted by Amsley246

All we want is for those pigs to be treated better,

Treat the guinea pigs better but not treat a “good friend of ten years” with respect? Sending an outside source over there to seize the animals is a totally passive aggressive move, I think. Not something my circle of friends would do to each other, I’d hope.

I’d volunteer my time to ensure the pigs have the basics and while I’m there, I’d make a strong case for how everyone would be happier if some or all of the pigs found a new home. And then, I’d volunteer more of my time to make it as seamless as possible. If that didn’t go over well, I’d offer to hold the baby so my friend could feel like more of a person by cleaning out the cages and then taking a shower, with time to shave. If all those efforts failed, I’d tell my friend that she may not understand now, but I care about her so much that I’m walking out the door with at least two of her GPs and she can thank me later.

PPD aside, I don’t understand the point of complaining about a “good friend” on the internet when the simple solution is to go over there and give the pigs what they need, or find them better homes. That’s just what friends do for each other.

[SheriMartini]

Well thank you again everyone for your advice! Once again, I really appreciate all of the feedback, as this is a tough situation to be in!

My fiance and I have discussed this with her boyfriend, and he is going to step up more. I am going to try going over there a couple times a week to keep Manda company, so if I see the cages are dirty, I will personally clean them. My fiance has completely shot down the idea of US taking them in, and I can't really blame him. I don't have a job at the moment, and I require the best of everything for my gp right now. So, adding an additional four would be very expensive.

As far as purchasing a c&c cage for her goes... well, I don't have the money to do that, as it was a big investment for ME to buy my own. I'm currently unemployed, and my boyfriend works part time at Wal-Mart in the auto area. So, we have money, just not a ton! I had to use my tax refund to buy my cage and fleece. Manda's boyfriend has a good job and she is also getting unemployment (we worked in the same office together, but it closed down in February because of the economy), so realisticaly, even with baby costs, they have much more money than me and my fiance do.

As far as calling authorities go for the pigs, I'm not sure that would be in anyone's best interest. Like ferndalezoo said, I don't want to hurt my friend in such a crucial time. Manda is having a very difficult time with her daugther, and I don't want to add any extra stress. On top of it all, if I DID call authorities, it is possible that CPS may also be brought in. And I don't want to put my friends through that stress. Especially when I know that her daughter is not mistreated at all.

This is a difficult situation to be in, and I will just have to step up and do MY part to better the conditions the pigs live in. I can't take full responsibility for them, but I WILL make sure that conditions improve.

I'm sorry that this turned into such a heated debate, but I know EVERYONE here just has the pigs best interest in mind. We all care about the animals at stake, and want the best. And with that, I thank everyone again! Now, I must go feed my OWN grumbly belly and clean out my Fajita's cage

[Amsley246]

Originally Posted by Adorable

Treat the guinea pigs better but not treat a “good friend of ten years” with respect? Sending an outside source over there to seize the animals is a totally passive aggressive move, I think. Not something my circle of friends would do to each other, I’d hope.

I’d volunteer my time to ensure the pigs have the basics and while I’m there, I’d make a strong case for how everyone would be happier if some or all of the pigs found a new home. And then, I’d volunteer more of my time to make it as seamless as possible. If that didn’t go over well, I’d offer to hold the baby so my friend could feel like more of a person by cleaning out the cages and then taking a shower, with time to shave. If all those efforts failed, I’d tell my friend that she may not understand now, but I care about her so much that I’m walking out the door with at least two of her GPs and she can thank me later.

PPD aside, I don’t understand the point of complaining about a “good friend” on the internet when the simple solution is to go over there and give the pigs what they need, or find them better homes. That’s just what friends do for each other.

I didnt mean to go tattle to the authorities behind her friends back, I meant call them to see if they can help Sheri out in anyway with some advice. PPD can be a serious thing for some people to deal with, like I said, we dont know this person to know how she going to react to anything, doesn't matter if she went straight to the authorites or if she came to get the pigs or help her out. The girl could take it wrong either way. I just hope Sheri, that you can help out in anyway you can and that the pigs get whats best for them. I also help your friend pulls through, it may not be easy and it may take a while, but there is an end to the tunnel.

Gooberific, I know what you mean by colicky babies, I had a lot of sleepless nights as well! I feel your pain on that one!

[Adorable]

Originally Posted by SheriMartini

On top of it all, if I DID call authorities, it is possible that CPS may also be brought in. And I don't want to put my friends through that stress. Especially when I know that her daughter is not mistreated at all.

Why do you think CPS would be involved, unless the entire house is a disaster and the child is neglected along with the guinea pigs?

I completely understand that you aren’t in a position to offer financial help and I think it’s wise for you to not get involved that way. Your plan is a good one, I think, but you need to be prepared for some tough love if conditions don’t improve permanently for the pigs. Tough love, meaning that you can’t be friends with someone who would not do the best they can for a living thing.

Originally Posted by Amsley246

I didnt mean to go tattle to the authorities behind her friends back, I meant call them to see if they can help Sheri out in anyway with some advice.

What advice? It sounds like Sheri has already conveyed what guinea pigs need and it fell on deaf ears. Why would giving second hand info from a stranger make it any more palatable?

[Jasper_Hale]

Originally Posted by SheriMartini

(I hope this is in the right spot! I could only quickly skim the prefixes! My hair is in a towel and I need to be leaving my apartment here in like ten minutes, but I just had to get this written!)

One of my good friends, who I have known for well over 10 years, treats her pigs horribly. If there is something you can do wrong, she'll do it! Not on purpose, but just because she is unwilling to do anything extra. She has four pigs total, a male and female TOGETHER, a female and a male separate, all in store bought cages. She does not give them unlimited amounts of hay, she gives them yogurt drops, they sporadically get lettuce and carrots, but only if she wants them to be quiet. Salt licks, no toys, no nail clipping... Like I said, if she can do anything wrong, it's being done!

She just had her first child a little over a month ago, and has been quite stressed out and suffering from postpartum depression. She has basically lost the little interest she had in her animals.

I've tried everything to get her to research gps more; I've told her the proper way to do things. She just doesn't seem to want to change her ways! I've shown her my c&c, and the only improvement that was done for their cages, was they added fleece. However, if you never CLEAN the cage, it defeats the purpose. The poor piggies are living in filth!!!

So, now I'm at my wits end. She just posted on facebook that the pig she's had the longest isn't eating and doesn't look good. She actually said that by guinea pig standards, that he is old... He is only TWO years old!!! I told her that if she can get any Critical Care it may save the pigs life, and I asked what other symptoms he is having. Thus far she hasn't wrote me back... I feel so bad for the pigs and the conditions that they live in. If I thought I had enough room or money for all of them, I'd see if she'd be willing to surrender. Sadly, I don't have the room for that many c&c cages.

Any other suggestions anyone has about how to get the proper ways to take care of a gp through her head?? I don't know what else to do? I can tell her the proper ways till I'm blue in the face, but she just doesn't seem to get it! I feel guilty enough just knowing what conditions those pigs live in.

I hate to see pigs in this poor of condition, but every one has their ways.

If I were you, I would offer to take them in for awhile until she feels better (Not depressed anymore). If she lets you, take them in, seperate the females and males, and clean their cage. Make them a C&C Cage (One for the boys and one for the girls), get some fleece, and trim theirs nails. Make sure they have lots of veggies, too. Take the guinea pig that she said was sick to a vet and let him be checked out. Invite her over one day and let her see how happy the pigs are. She might get it then? If she doesn't get it then, I would wait until she asks for them back. If she does, and it goes back to how she was treating thhem before, I would report the problem to an animal control center.

I know you said you didn't have alot of room, but it's just a sugestion. Good Luck!