Pet Stores: Just wondering

[ferndalezoo]

Originally Posted by rabbitsncavyluv

I'm really shocked they have not kicked you out for doing any of it. It's typically in their contract with you that you cannot mar their name or store in any way and not push their products. Your store must not know you are doing this.

You're right. They don't. I am discreet. But on the other hand, I also don't "mar their name"-- I don't say anything bad about them or their products. I just point out the alternatives.

[Ly&Pigs]

Originally Posted by TheCraftyFaerie

Jesus H. Christ.

Let's leave Him completely off the forum. Thanks.

And a note to EVERYONE- If you do NOT have a moderator title or your name isn't in dark green to signify a moderator, do NOT tell people the rules or to stay on topic. That is the job of the moderators.

[Henle15]

You're right. They don't. I am discreet. But on the other hand, I also don't "mar their name"-- I don't say anything bad about them or their products. I just point out the alternatives.

But if those alternatives drive the customers to buy food or supplies somewhere else they would kick the rescue out. Believe me...its been done before and it won't be the last. Be careful that none of the managers know you are doing this. Anything that drives money somewhere besides that store will not be looked at as good. They don't care how they get the money as long as they do. They would sell chocolate to a dog owner for the dog if it meant money in their pockets! They are good at PR and using rescues to help them get more money.

My question is, why don't some of these rescues sell good food and other supplies to help raise money and get their own physical building to help put the petstores in their place? It doesn't have to be a huge place and then you can help those adopters even more by being a "full-service" rescue. Do you know what those petstores would do if rescues and shelters stopped adopting from there? They would sell those animals. So yes the rescues and shelters are being used!!

I am tired of some rescues (not yours specifically) complaining about people not being able to buy good food or being educated enough and then going to ask an unknowledgabe petstore employee about what to feed and get for their pet. It is the rescue or shelter's responsibility to provide this information and also includes having the right products available for them to purchase at time of adoption or even at a later time.

It takes very little money to maintain a website for selling products and not much time either.

How can you recommend a product and then send them somewhere else to buy it? Why doesn't that rescue or shelter just sell it to them right then and tell them to keep coming back. People would rather give the rescue or shelter the money but if they don't sell it, what are their options???!!?!?!?

[TheCraftyFaerie]

I would go as far as to say it's easy for a rescue to sell products. I mean some rescues have a hard enough time maintaining a no kill status. Money doesn't exactly grow on trees. Until you look at their finance books can you REALLY say that they could be doing more?

[Henle15]

Your right, money doesn't grow on trees and I understand it is hard to run a rescue. I RUN ONE MYSELF!! What I am saying is that those adopters have to buy food from somewhere right? So why not have that food available for the adopters at the time of adoption and then after too? Instead they send everybody to a petstore to buy that food. They are missing out on $35-$40 of easy money. It really is not hard to find a food distributor and buy it in wholesale for cheap and then sell it for a profit and raise money for the rescue so therefore the rescue is actually making money to help run the rescue with little to no effort or time.

People generally would rather buy the food from the rescue where they adopted IF it is available, cheaper and convenient for them to do so. If they know they are helping other animals and what the rescue is doing then they feel better spending money there instead of a petstore that makes tons of money and may or may not sell animals.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by Henle15

Your right, money doesn't grow on trees and I understand it is hard to run a rescue. I RUN ONE MYSELF!! What I am saying is that those adopters have to buy food from somewhere right? So why not have that food available for the adopters at the time of adoption and then after too? Instead they send everybody to a petstore to buy that food. They are missing out on $35-$40 of easy money. It really is not hard to find a food distributor and buy it in wholesale for cheap and then sell it for a profit and raise money for the rescue so therefore the rescue is actually making money to help run the rescue with little to no effort or time.

People generally would rather buy the food from the rescue where they adopted IF it is available, cheaper and convenient for them to do so. If they know they are helping other animals and what the rescue is doing then they feel better spending money there instead of a petstore that makes tons of money and may or may not sell animals.

Okay. You run a rescue. So do you sell food? It is absolutely not easy to set yourself up like a store that is profitable. It's not easy money. You start reselling products--if you are doing it right, you need a state resale license. Which means you need a local business license and you need to file and pay state sales taxes. You need to buy in quantities large enough to make money. You need to store it. You need to pay attention to inventory and expiration dates. Obviously $40 of gross revenue has nothing to do with profit. Even the vast majority of small mom and pet stores don't survive on the thin margins. Not to mention, as a rescue myself, it is so much work just dealing with running a rescue, let alone trying to turn a rescue into a business. I USED to be kind of a one-stop shop for supplies and such for adoptions. You need a lot of space and a lot of help to pull it off--just in recycling supplies and supplying cage materials and such. It's not easy.

[krittercrazy]

Henle15, I think you have a good idea. However, not all rescues agree on what is a good food. Many get kick backs/donations from pet food distributors. Much the same as they reap certain benifits from doing adoptions outside of petsmart.

The local SPCA here got two vans for transporting animals from petsmart adoptions. They used to "promote" iams with all the adoptions. Now it is Science Diet. All the animals in the shelter are on Science Diet. Each pet goes home with a small bag of SD. The SPCA gets food for all their animals and donations for advertising and pushing the brand. It reminds me of getting the highest paying sponsors regardless of quality or message.

Shelters, as a rule, don't have enough space for animals much less a retail store. On the other hand, the local SPCA here does have building for their rummage sale. It is open year round now. Maybe they could set aside a portion of it to have pet food. It would be nice to put the pet stores out of business, so long as it doesn't mean becoming just like them.

[Henle15]

Yes my rescue does sell food. It is internet based and people can either pick up locally OR have it shipped to them. I understand the concept of good food for dogs and cats, but I would think that Kleenmama's and Oxbow would be the 2 best brands of food that guinea pigs are getting and all guinea pig owners can agree upon.

So my rescue sells Oxbow products...we get no "kick backs" or money for selling their products. Kaytee and a few others tried that and I said no because your food is crap and my rescue does not support crappy food. I will never accept money or "kick backs" from places that sell animals, promote crappy food, promote crappy products or promote pets as "just pets".

I know that many shelters and rescues sell or promote certain food because of the "kick backs" which I think is unethical, but if it drives money in, then they don't care. Why don't those shelters stand up and say no to the crappy food...I think people can agree that science diet and iams aren't the best. But some will say they are, look at the ingredients and you will see the things in the food that are not good. Is this not the same thing as saying "we will do anything for money, just give us the money please"

The pet food companies would have to change their ingredients eventually because they would have less people buying their products and supporting them. Isn't this the same concept that we try to promote when we want people to stop selling animals in the petstores? We say don't buy to stop the demand and then eventually the petstores would stop selling those animals. The pet food companies would have to do the same thing to stay competitive in the industry.

I think renting a storage area is not hard to do, calling and ordering from a distributor is not hard, getting all the business aspects of the rescue is not hard...it takes some time and patience but not impossible to get done. Yes you or another person needs to know how to get it done and who to call and where to go. Here in Florida it is easy to start a rescue and do everything legally so maybe I am spoiled. I shouldn't say its easy everywhere because I don't know.

I have great software to help with all aspects of my rescue. All I really have to do is promote my rescue, recruit volunteers, and deal with adopters. I personally think that Teresa is a great person and has done numerous things for guinea pigs that nobody else has thought of and continues to do great things. I am just saying that there are ways to help someones rescue besides only doing adoptions.

I basically started and have modeled everything in my rescue like your rescue Teresa and everything I read on Cavyspirit.com, this website, and also guineapighome.com (formerly known as cavyrescue.com).

I really just don't like when people say and think it is so hard to do rescue work. Of course you really need and want to do it. You can't think that you can do it all or think that you want to try it. There is no in between with rescuing, you either want to do it or you don't.

[krittercrazy]

Over the years I have seen many improvements in the way rescues and shelters are run. I hope to see many more and believe it will happen as others set examples.

[TheCraftyFaerie]

Do tell Henle, is your nose bleeding up there on your high horse?

[CavySpirit]

Henle, I appreciate where you are coming from, and despite Crafty's rude remarks, found your post articulate and informative.

What is your rescue? Is it a dog rescue? GPs?

Yes, there are ample ways to help rescues without doing adoptions, but still, running a business is the ultimate responsibility of the main rescuer or 'owner.'

But, even though your rescue sells Oxbow products, I can pretty much guarantee that after you factor in all direct and indirect (overhead) expenses, you might be helping your cash flow, but you aren't contributing to the bottom line. Not really. Not in a meaningful way. It's more a convenience for your adopters than a business that generates profit.

I've even seen the top-notch city/county-funded shelters here that used to also have stores with products AND guaranteed walk-in traffic, finally close up shop. It's not worth it and the money (real profit, not just cash flow) isn't there.

If I had extra volunteers willing to invest time, it wouldn't be for selling supplies. I've still got a slew of ideas that I would have loved to do with my rescue just to improve the core rescue elements and none of them involve selling supplies or food to adopters. Someday.....

[TheCraftyFaerie]

Henle, I'm not going to blow smoke and shoot rainbows. EVERYONE's situation is just a little different. As someone who's had to watch more than one private shelter be turned over to the local authorities and turned into a kill shelter your posts were a bit offensive. Sometimes it's not easy. Especially in this economy. I get where you're coming from but until you're in someone's shelter living their life you just don't know. Never assume.

[Amsley246]

I would image with all the shelters today being so full with animals the way they are would be a huge handful for whoever works there now, let alone trying to sell products on top of that, especially when you have sick animals, and hungry animals, and animals that need to be cleaned up and go to the bathroom/go out to play, and animals that need to have papers written up because they found a loving home (I wish that would happen more often). When that's all said and done, time flew out the door and never comes back. I appauld another who works at one, that is truly saving lives, no matter what the animal.

[sophistacavy]

Well, in response to everything posted on here that started the argument about "rescue ethics":

I proudly volunteer regularly as an animal care volunteer at Pet Harmony, the pet store for rescued pets. We are with Animal Compassion Network, and have become a "home base" for the once "nework only" organization.
Please click the following two links to find out all about us. We are the answer to the right kind of pet store.

Pet Harmony Adoptions: An Asheville pet store for rescued pets | Animal Compassion Network (ACN)

Pet Harmony Retail Store | Animal Compassion Network (ACN)

You can even watch our 15-second youtube video that was orignally a TV commercial!

I was so excited when I read Henle's first post, that I just wanted to show everybody that that kind of "only in your dreams" kind of shelter/rescue/pet shop combo does exist, and more than just Asheville, NC can do it if they have the proper ammenities. I guess I'm just showing us (me and everyone else at Pet Harmony/ACN) off!

Hope this helps!

[blackarrow]

Originally Posted by paula.m.moore

So, no, their presence isn't saying that Petsmart (or other chain store) is "okay" - but it really isn't saying anything to the contrary either.

Another truth is that in reality, many of the dogs and cats the shelters are tasked with adopting out are in the situation to need adopting because of some of the very same things that the store is promoting by selling small animals - impulse buys, breeder mills, etc.

As to the first sentence - my point exactly. It's a neutral action.

Of course the second point is true. It would be a good thing if the people going in to adopt the cats and dogs pointed that out to the managers at the PetSmart.

[ferndalezoo]

I know I am jumping in on this late-- I'm travelling for work this week, and don't have the time I normally do to check the goings-on online.

With regard to why we don't sell items (food, etc) to bolster our funds: Because, quite simply, we are a rescue. We aren't a retail store, and don't want to be. Every retail store has one thing in mind: profit. As a 501c3 not-for-profit organization, that would require completely different liscensure, different staff, etc, and we are already stretched thinly enough. Most of the "natural petfoods" type "distributorships" I've seen available are "multi-level marketing" companies (think Avon and Amway, for dogs), and that is not something in which I, or the organization for which I volunteer, chose to become involved.

Why don't we get our own building? Because people would have to come find us, and we wouldn't be able to do the outreach we do. People who come into a Petco or Petsmart looking to "buy a puppy", get the chance to learn about adoption and rescues. If we had our own building, only those who were already leaning in that direction would come to us. The mindless masses walking into the big-box pet-stores would STILL go there, only they'd come out as ill-informed as they went in.

As a rescue, we feed the food we get donated to us. It's free. It's money we don't have to spend on food that can instead go to cover the vaccines for the latest litter of "kitten season" kittens, or the surgery for the hit-by-car shepherd mix, or the spay for the lab who was dumped at a kill shelter with her 12 puppies. It's not perfect, but it's the nature of the beast. When that same dog or cat gets adopted, we give the family information on how to pick a good food-- what to look for in an ingredient list. What to avoid.

In a city where homeless animal seem to outnumber the ones with homes sometimes, when the suburbs are outlawing one breed after another, what we do gets harder every day. It'd be easy to just give up and not care. It'd be easier to say "Don't show at Petco! Build your own building!! Sell food!! Sell your soul!!!".

I like to think that what we do makes a difference. If you can do it perfectly, more power to you, I suppose. We all do the best we can.

[ferndalezoo]

Originally Posted by blackarrow

Of course the second point is true. It would be a good thing if the people going in to adopt the cats and dogs pointed that out to the managers at the PetSmart.

Let me give you two examplea of how this can, and occasionally does, work.

Besides small-and-furries, petco and petsmart also sell reptiles. They used to sell iguanas, one of the most "disposable" pets in the reptile trade. Green iguanas are farmed by the millions every year. Well over half of them don't live long enough to make it to a pet store. Once there, they are kept in tiny fishtanks, with heat rocks, and usually fed a diet high in animal protein (green igs are herbivores). When sold, they go home with a caresheet that would make the cavy-care-advice seem nearly accurate by comparison. Fish tanks. Heat rocks. Crappy food. Bark (or worse, sand) for bedding. Most don't live to see their first birthday, and if they do, they're dying of an extremely painful bone disease by the time they are two.

A proper iguana enclosure is the size of a walk-in closet. 6' high, 6' wide, and 4' deep front to back. They tend to eat particulate bedding, so they need a solid substrate, such as indoor-outdoor carpeting or linoleum. They need very specialized lighting and heat, and a high humidity. Their diet is as varried and complicated as cavies' but without the "safety net" of pellets. Well cared for, a green iguana can live into its late teens, and see 6 or more feet in length.

The reptile community launched a massive campaign to call/write/email Petco and Petsmart, both the individual stores and at the corporate level.

It took years, but Petco and Petsmart no longer sell Green iguanas.


The same can be said (at least at Petsmart) of the recently trendy Leopard Gecko and its care. Leos are hardy little lizards, and make good first-time-reptile pets, but not with the care/info they received at those stores! Babies were routinely displayed on "calci-sand" (a horrific substrate that actually encourages the lizards to EAT it, and once there, blocks up their gut with the gooey, indigestible mess it becomes), and of course they sold it as the "perfect bedding for leos!". Again, the herp community launched a letter-writing campaign, and more and more stores are now displaying Leos on more appropriate solid substrates (usually "reptile carpet", which has its own issues, but is exponentially safer).

I know we are all already doing this with regard to selling small animals, but KEEP IT UP. It does work. It might take YEARS, but it works.

[Henle15]

Why don't we get our own building? Because people would have to come find us, and we wouldn't be able to do the outreach we do. People who come into a Petco or Petsmart looking to "buy a puppy", get the chance to learn about adoption and rescues. If we had our own building, only those who were already leaning in that direction would come to us. The mindless masses walking into the big-box pet-stores would STILL go there, only they'd come out as ill-informed as they went in.

You can have a building and set your own hours or also have your "store" online only where people can order and all you have to do is ship or even have a pickup option. This quote basically tells me you don't care about the people that go into the stores because they won't change their mind about buying an animal. THAT IS THE PERFECT PERSON TO GET INTO YOUR PLACE OR TALK TOO.

I don't understand why everybody wants to shut down the stores from selling animals and then REFUSES to sell things that the adopters need. I don't know if I just see a different market or have hit the right market or what but I have worked in all different types of animal industries and have talked to tons of shelters, petstores, kennels, vets and most importantly pet owners. My rescue is guinea pig only right now but looking to expand to other animals soon and we are on the verge of leasing a building. You know who is paying for the lease? Our past adopters and people who believe in the same mission as us. You have to build that relationship with the community and people that can help. A rescue is a charity and people love helping charities right? Use your mission to get people to help you!!

As a rescue, we feed the food we get donated to us. It's free. It's money we don't have to spend on food that can instead go to cover the vaccines for the latest litter of "kitten season" kittens, or the surgery for the hit-by-car shepherd mix, or the spay for the lab who was dumped at a kill shelter with her 12 puppies. It's not perfect, but it's the nature of the beast. When that same dog or cat gets adopted, we give the family information on how to pick a good food-- what to look for in an ingredient list. What to avoid.

So you just tell your adopters you feed bad food because its free, so if they tell you they will do the same thing, you cannot say anything to them. This to me is a lame excuse as to why you feed the food you do. I understand why you have it this way and I just think it could change if you wanted it too. But I cannot fault you for doing this.

I don't think I am better than anybody else but I just wanted to know why more rescues or shelters didn't sell the products they recommend adopters buy and then whine about the petstores making money. Why can't a rescue set up like a petstore? Your still a rescue if you adopt out animals, sell food or products and are carrying out your mission and exempt purposes.

With regard to why we don't sell items (food, etc) to bolster our funds: Because, quite simply, we are a rescue. We aren't a retail store, and don't want to be. Every retail store has one thing in mind: profit. As a 501c3 not-for-profit organization, that would require completely different liscensure, different staff, etc, and we are already stretched thinly enough. Most of the "natural petfoods" type "distributorships" I've seen available are "multi-level marketing" companies (think Avon and Amway, for dogs), and that is not something in which I, or the organization for which I volunteer, chose to become involved.

A Non-profit 501(c)3 organization is for tax purposes only. You can "profit" by making money but it just has to to into or towards your exempt purposes. Just because you are a non-profit does not mean you have to do anything differently than a for profit business except not make tons of money for yourself or your employees. A rescue is a charity which means they need to raise money somehow and how do you think most charities make money? They raise money by selling products related to their charity and then use that money to help continue their mission.

If you are a rescue and are not doing fundraising that is as simple as selling the same products you are recommending people buy, then you are missing out on that extra money. I just think many rescues and shelters are missing out and then they complain and that upsets me. Instead of "buying" that item, they are "donating" to get that item. It's the same thing just different language.

Henle, I'm not going to blow smoke and shoot rainbows. EVERYONE's situation is just a little different. As someone who's had to watch more than one private shelter be turned over to the local authorities and turned into a kill shelter your posts were a bit offensive. Sometimes it's not easy. Especially in this economy. I get where you're coming from but until you're in someone's shelter living their life you just don't know. Never assume.

I have worked in both "kill" and no "kill shelters and they sell products but yet you never see any advertising so people just don't know about them selling things. People think shelter and they think adoption only...why not have them think "place to buy and get everything needed for my pet". You can't get people to stop buying animals and things at petstores until you give them an alternative. Also bad management plays into our gov't shelters and that is why most of those are so bad looking and not a great place to go. THe setting of the rescue or shelter plays into some people's decisions to adopt or not too. I have also noticed that most shelter managers are in in for the money and only are their for a paycheck and they wonder why that specific shelter is bad. If they were their for more than the money they would do more and make the shelters better.

Over the years I have seen many improvements in the way rescues and shelters are run. I hope to see many more and believe it will happen as others set examples.

I agree 100% and that is why I don't get why people are so close-minded about doing different things and just was wondering why more rescues and shelters don't try selling products. They just figure its not worth it and don't try. It only takes one rescue to try it and find that it works and others will follow.

But, even though your rescue sells Oxbow products, I can pretty much guarantee that after you factor in all direct and indirect (overhead) expenses, you might be helping your cash flow, but you aren't contributing to the bottom line. Not really. Not in a meaningful way. It's more a convenience for your adopters than a business that generates profit.

Its not a huge part of the money the rescue raises, but it does allow us to continue our mission and help the community understand why adopting is better than buying. But I also have to point out that it takes about 1-2 hours per week to run. So in our case it works.

If I had extra volunteers willing to invest time, it wouldn't be for selling supplies. I've still got a slew of ideas that I would have loved to do with my rescue just to improve the core rescue elements and none of them involve selling supplies or food to adopters. Someday.....

I understand this and I know you have already done so much for guinea pigs and rescuing. I really cannot explain how grateful I am for people like you that "get it" and are a leader in the guinea pig world.

Most of the "natural petfoods" type "distributorships" I've seen available are "multi-level marketing" companies (think Avon and Amway, for dogs), and that is not something in which I, or the organization for which I volunteer, chose to become involved.

This is good to know, I have never had to deal with any dog or cat food companies so this is a great thing to know so my question is answered as to why more rescues and shelters don't sell food. Now I just need to find a way to change that and make it easier for rescuers to get food to make it more convenient. I am going to research and look into this and see what things can be done to help. I just feel like most would just give up and say "oh, well at least we tried". Where there is a will, there is a way!!

[pennykit&amanda]

A proper iguana enclosure is the size of a walk-in closet. 6' high, 6' wide, and 4' deep front to back. They tend to eat particulate bedding, so they need a solid substrate, such as indoor-outdoor carpeting or linoleum. They need very specialized lighting and heat, and a high humidity. Their diet is as varried and complicated as cavies' but without the "safety net" of pellets. Well cared for, a green iguana can live into its late teens, and see 6 or more feet in length.

The reptile community launched a massive campaign to call/write/email Petco and Petsmart, both the individual stores and at the corporate level.

It took years, but Petco and Petsmart no longer sell Green iguanas.

I just went to Petco today, and they have three for sale.

[Amsley246]

Originally Posted by pennykit&amanda

I just went to Petco today, and they have three for sale.

Many large chain stores are individually owned by different store owners. Store policies are made up by whoever owns the store so it may change from store to store. For instance, where I live (PEI, Canada) there are only 2 Canadian Tire stores in our province, one in Charlettown, one in my town Summerside. Our store doesn't hold items and we have sunday shopping. Charlettown does not. Also, it's up to the owners on what they sell in the store and they do all the ordering. One store may have a certain product while the one in a different town may not. Hence why there may be some Iguanas there. Hope that helps!