Is Oxbow really that great?

[Cagney]

Ok I've been reading through many posts. Yes Oxbow is a great product that is well balanced and exceeds many needs of our cavies.

But after being bashed for buying Oxbow at petsmart I have to wonder how great of a company it is, and why many of you continue to support it?

The majority of stores in my area that carry Oxbow are small petstores that sell puppy mill puppies, and guinea pigs, rats, mice, rabbits from other mills that churn them out by the thousand. These types of stores improperly house, feed and care for these animals. They provide no education for the purchasers of these pets and offer no health guarentee that they'll actually stand behind.

Now they are in the ever so hated cooperation of petsmart products.

Do you really think Oxbow being available in petsmart is a move on petmarts part to offer high quality products, or more of Oxbow trying to mass produce their product to turn a higher profit? Probably a little of both would be my guess.


But what I don't understand is for those that so strongly oppose shopping in a petstore no matter for what or any reason, why they would continue to pay Oxbow for their product?

You may not be buying your Oxbow product from one of these places but you are still supporting a business that makes their profit from being sold in the exact stores you won't support. What's the difference?

The money used to produce the product you are buying online was made from the purchases in these awful petstores. So in a round about way you are still supporting sell of this product in these stores you oppose are you not?

So if you buy direct from Oxbow. The money they make off of you, then in turn is used to produce the product you find in a petstore. Then someone buys it in that petstore and the petstore makes money and then supports the mills. Same dollar that started with you.

I'd just like to hear thoughts on this matter. I agree with not supporting petstores, I agree Oxbow is a higher quality product, and I agree that the mills need to be shut down.

What I don't agree with is someone pointing a finger at another person for shopping for product only in a petstore, when they themselves are still supporting the same company that supports the petstore. To me it's really not that much different than buying a guinea pig directly from a mill. All you're doing is eliminating the middleman. Which is the petstore.

I think if we all want to do what's right then we need to get to the heart of the matter. Stop the mills. Write Oxbow, condem them for sale of their product in stores that support substandard care of any animal, and threaten to boycott their product. You are only going to be heard if you hit the main part of the problem where it hurts. In their pockets.


Now this addresses Oxbow only. KM is another option I'm looking into for feeding and nutritional support of my cavies. But you have to wonder if the lure of money will eventually lead to KM being sold in petstores as well. This is how Oxbow started out afterall isn't it? Even at one time Zupreem and Kaytee were the high end products that were not easily accessible to find.


Aside from digging up my backyard and planting alphalfa and timothy and manufactering my own hays and pellets, what are the realistic and other reasonable options out there?

[Ly&Pigs]

I didn't know that Oxbow was putting their products into petstores until the last couple of days. You have given me things to think about.

But you have to wonder if the lure of money will eventually lead to KM being sold in petstores as well.

Linda is not the kind of person to do this no matter the lure. I believe if memory serves me that she is a reformed breeder and also if my memory serves me she's done rescue work. I don't think she'd ever put her products in petstores.

[Cagney]

Originally Posted by Ly&Pigs

I didn't know that Oxbow was putting their products into petstores until the last couple of days. You have given me things to think about.

Linda is not the kind of person to do this no matter the lure. I believe if memory serves me that she is a reformed breeder and also if my memory serves me she's done rescue work. I don't think she'd ever put her products in petstores.

Yes I have read many great things about her on here and am planning on making a purchase from her here soon so I can mix in her pellets with the Oxbow and see how my girls take to it. And hopefully switch over. Per pound her pellets and hay even with shipping are cheaper than buying from a petstore. (now see I'm always open to suggestion, I just didn't know)

Now I don't know her, so I'm not even going to guess on how she runs her business, or am I questioning her ethics. I'm just saying obviously it's difficult to not be lured in by the profit selling your product in large companies can provide. Since Oxbow, Zupreem and others started off much like she has. She does seem like the kind of person that will stick to her guns and offer quality over quantity. So I will in return try to give my money and business to her.

I'm also going to give her hay a try. Like I've said I am not happy at all with the quality I am seeing of Oxbow hays here. It's brown and very stemmy. My girls would rather use it as bedding as opposed to eating it. It also has almost no aroma. It's just really yucky. The kaytee in a bag at walmart looks better than the hay I've been getting from Oxbow. This is why I'm questioning them as a company in whole lately.

Now I did purchase some of the Oxbow botanical hay today for the first time and the girls are loving it! They are rubbing themselves in it and running all around happy as can be. So would feeding the botanical only be safe for my piggies or should it be used as a treat only?

[Ly&Pigs]

Botanical hay is best for a couple time a week treat as some of the herbs in it are high in calcium. My girls get it now and again as a special treat.

KM has the best hay out there. I am currently giving my girls her bluegrass and they are truly pigs when it comes to this hay. The 3rd cut timothy is also really great.

[Angelgal]

See, as much as I don't like that PetStupid (aka PetSmart) has Oxbow listed on their website (they don't sell it in the store here) ... I've faced with a difficult situation.

At the moment I only have a Chinchilla, because I am attending college I do not feel I should adopt GP's since I'm not going to be home often, and I cannot have pets in residence. I feel they would not get the attention and love they deserve, so I am holding off on owning GPs until I can give them what they deserve. With that comes this ... KM is awesome but is made for GP's not Chin's (at least from what I read....)

Since I cannot feed a GP pellet to a Chin, the two quality products I am faced with are Oxbow and Mazuri. Both are difficult for me to come by, but I have seen Oxbow sold in two places here (for GP's and Rats) so until one of these places gets in the Chinchilla Delux, I order it online. The first place is an exotic vet's office, the other a Pet Value (pet supplies only!). I have NEVER seen Mazuri, and do not wish to order it from PetStupid just to feed it (its also high in calcium so very careful feeding needs done and I do not trust my dad with that while I'm gone). With saying this ... I am doing a wide ranged search of Ontario for the products I am looking for, not just my home town so I really am trying my heart out here and so far not much luck .

So, would you do when your faced in a situation like this? You feel bad that your buying from a company who is now supporting the animal mills of PetSmart, but I want to feed a quality pellet for my Chin but I have limited options. When I get pigs again, they will be on KM or Oxbow (probably KM!).

I feel bad, but what else can I do?

[Dr Doughnut]

If Petsmart were to carry Critical Care, would it be OK if I bought it?

What if it was for an emergency? Or the shipping all the sudden spikes up due to gas prices? For something as important as Critical Care, I would much prefer the health of my piggies and the convenience of buying fast, then to boycott the petstore.

[PiggieMamaKelly]

I would buy critical care in a heartbeat at Petsmart if it were the only place I could get it and my pig was in an emergency situation.

[sophistacavy]

I think that Oxbow struck up some sort of deal w/ PetsFart(l o l), or vice versa. I don't know who to blame, so I won't blame either company. I do think that Oxbow could've made a better choice, and/or they didn't have to let themselves be lured into it. Hey everybody, you can order Oxbow online from Pet Supplies, Dog Supplies, Cat Supplies, Pet Meds & Pet Products too, in case you didn't know.
I looked at the Oxbow hay in PetsFart the other day, and it looked ghastly compared to when I've ordered it direct from their website, or from Pet Supplies, Dog Supplies, Cat Supplies, Pet Meds & Pet Products, or picked it up from Asheville Pet Supply(local pet supply store w/o animals). Maybe PetsFart cut the cheese on it. x-D
Currently, Critical Care is sold only through a licensed veterinary practioner, or I think on Oxbow's website w/proof of permission from a vet.

You guys know Banfield is inside PetsFart, right? Well, their profit has nothing to do w/ PetsFart, does it? I take my zoo members there sometimes b/c they're closer.

[AnimalHouse36]

THis really does make me angry. This has given me alot to absorb. I thought oxbow was a very dependable (sp?) product.

I really want to switch to KM but the shipping is like 30 bucks!

[sophistacavy]

Originally Posted by AnimalHouse36

THis really does make me angry. This has given me alot to absorb. I thought oxbow was a very dependable (sp?) product.

I really want to switch to KM but the shipping is like 30 bucks!

Yeah I know! The shipping is a bit high, but thats because of the rising and rising costs of hay production, which includes transportation. In class today, my teacher said that 1 of those girnourmous round bales (this is cow-quality, not even horse quality hay. its yellow and sometimes brown, hard and pokey), costs $75-78 (where I live). We have a herd of 10 cows that are all very very pregnant (except the immature bull, of course , he'd be too young if he were female anyways), and my teacher was looking into a deal that would cost $7,500 for somehwers around 750 of them....thats absurd, and its mostly because of the oil companies playing "Can You Top This?"
Plus, if the hay is machine picked, those machines take up gasoline also.

But consider this: Oxbow prints nice designs on their packaging bags for their hay, plus it says on the back that the bags are biodegradable, which we all have to admit, is good for the earth. I think Oxbow is wasting precious money that they might not have to make up by partnering w/ petsfart, on fancy packaging.
KM's Hayloft uses what I believe to be garbage bags. No problem here, a clean, unused, brand-new garbage bag is just as sanitary as Oxbow's upgraded design. I have no idea if trash bags cost more or less than Oxbow's eye-catching(who honestly cares what the packaging looks like? if the phrase "POOP!!! HEY EVERYONE GUESS WHAT?? YOUR CAVY POOOOOPS! WHOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO! FREE FERTIZLIZER DUDES!!!" was on the bags, who would honeslty be repelled enough to not buy it??) designs, but in the case that they don't, then Oxbow is being < intelligent & economical.
Actually, I really love her garbage bags. Living in Asheville, North Carolina, it puts a nice homey feeling in my gut. Its like we all took whatever trash bags we use daily, and went to our local hayfield, and packed it ourselves. How cute! If I wrote to Oxbow, I would tell them that their idea of enticing more customers with aesthetically pleasing packaging actually doesn't work(for me at least) as well as KM'S nice homey touch, like the cute farmboy next door (don't I wish!) packed it all up in the only thing he had, just for me!

Well, I think I'm done. Lol.

[Cagney]

Thank you all, this is the type of discussion i was hoping for. I'm not saying stop using Oxbow. It's a good product, why make your piggies suffer? I just wanted to point out that boycotting petstores by not buying their product and then ordering the exact same product online is getting you nowhere, but helping to stock the shelves of your local petstore anyway.

As for the critical care posts. You can't buy it at petsmart anyway. Even the oxbow site says it can only be sold through veterinarians or by prescription from a veterinarian. Although someone sent me a link today to buy guinea pig supplies that did sell the critical care, and that makes me wonder about that site enough to not purchase anything from them. But critical care is another discussion and you've missed the point of this particular topic at hand.

What I'm talking about is helping to actually reform petstores. Not buying their product from their shelves and going to the manufacturer directly obviously does no good. Again it would be the same as buying a guinea pig straight from a mill and not a petstore. Is Oxbow anywhere near a animal mill, no way. Just an example.

What I'm asking all of you wonderful cavy lovers to do is to stop being so harsh and judgemental of others buying high quality guinea pig products from a petstore. Instead take the time to help educate the general public about where the live pets being sold in that store are coming from. In reality the general public is never going to not shop at petsmart. The want a product now and they want it cheap. It's human nature in general. Petsmart is quick and cheap. But you can, if only one person at a time, educate the public not to purchase live animals from petstores. They will listen to you there. Everyone loves to "save" something. They honestly think that they are "saving" those pets in the petstore. They either refuse to really hear where those pets are coming from or they just don't know. But if you explain how getting a pet from a rescue or a shelter that they are then truely saving a pet, they will hear that.

One of the reasons that petstores keep pets in those horrible conditions is it appeals to the nature of a person and makes them want to save that pet. It increases impulse buys and profits the store. Of course that's just one of many reasons.

What I want to point out is if a large amount of people stopped buying just the live animals from petstores that the petstore would see that in their pocket and respond. If they saw that they were loosing money on the live pets, but still making a profit on products. They would change their marketing and strategies to sell product more than live pets. They would then have to allow the rescues to adopt out, much like they do with dogs and cats.


I'm not saying anything negative about someone who shops for products at petsmart. Even if you think you are saving a pet by buying it there I just would like the opprotunity to try and educate you. I understand in reality petstores will never close. So I'm trying to get people to think about what will and won't work in getting them to change.

[Cagney]

As for Banfield they are just as much petsmart as petsmart is. They are ran and regulated by the exact same cooperation as petsmart. Now I may buy product from petsmart, but I would never never no matter what trust my pet to the care provided by Banfield. They have huge staff turnovers. You very rarely will see the same vet any seperate time you visit. They vets are regulated as to what they can do to treat an animal by preset guidelines in a computer that petsmart cooperate employees has deemed to be the most profitable treatment as compared to the best treatment. They are overpriced and sell unneeded wellness programs to uneducated new pet owners just to make a bigger profit.

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Most of use don't use or recommend Banfield.

The pet store has to pay money to Oxbow for their product. If we don't buy it from them, the pet store doesn't make any money at least. Oxbow has already got their money. I don't agree with them selling their product to stores that sell animals but they are a business.

Oxbow also does support small animal rescue and gives discounts to rescues. If they start breeding and selling animals themselves, that is another matter.

[TwinkieSlug]

Originally Posted by Cagney

As for Banfield they are just as much petsmart as petsmart is. They are ran and regulated by the exact same cooperation as petsmart. Now I may buy product from petsmart, but I would never never no matter what trust my pet to the care provided by Banfield. They have huge staff turnovers. You very rarely will see the same vet any seperate time you visit. They vets are regulated as to what they can do to treat an animal by preset guidelines in a computer that petsmart cooperate employees has deemed to be the most profitable treatment as compared to the best treatment. They are overpriced and sell unneeded wellness programs to uneducated new pet owners just to make a bigger profit.

This is true. Most vets and techs I know hate that place. Even if a particular vet there is good, they are stuck to the Banfield guidelines, so the quality of care may suffer. I really doubt any place with high vet and tech turnover is a good place for exotics. They may SEE exotics, but that doesn't mean they know much about them.

I shop at PetSmart sometimes. I prefer the local store, eventhough they sell animals too, but PetSmart is cheaper and open late. Sometimes I need that. I don't think it's realistic that enough people will pass up cheap and convenient to make PetSmart even notice. Like WalMart, some "boycott" it but the place is always packed.

[Cagney]

yes but petsmart gets the same discount if not more than the rescues do. This is what happened with Science Diet. They were orginally only sold through a veterinarian. Then petsmart came along, offered them a chance a mass production and sales and they jumped on it. Now petsmart can sell science diet foods cheaper than your vet can buy it. At least the regular diet ones, not the prescription diets.

Buying it direct allows Oxbow to be able to produce more food to sell to petsmart, and petsmart to make a larger product is all i'm saying.

[crazywiggy]

Wow, I have to say I had never looked at the situation this way - it is certainly food for thought! (no pun intended!)

I see it like this....

Without getting too complicated you can split pet owners into 2 main groups: One group knows about the problems of pet shop selling animals and also cares enough to want to change things. The other group either doesn't know or doesn't care.

Those (like many here) who both know and care do not shop at pet stores at all, for anything. Therefore we do not make the stores any profit.

The other group buy their supplies from the nearest store. These people will continue to fund the stores, regardless of what products they do or don't sell.
To give an example using only arbitrary figures.... If the store ONLY sells 4 brands of crap piggie food, then every uneducated owner who shops there has a 0% chance of feeding their pigs a proper diet. If the store sells 3 crap brands, plus Oxbow, then the uneducated masses have a 1 in 4 (25%) chance of feeding a proper diet.

Don't get me wrong - I am against milling, back yard breeding, selling animals in stores etc.... but I am also appaled by the number of pigs suffering and dying from malnutrition and cancer thanks to crap food.
Making good foods like Oxbow more widely known, more widely available, and - dare I say it - more convenient, will increase the number of people who buy it, which in turn reduces the number of guinea pigs who will suffer from poor diet.

Being in the UK I use Oxbow for both food and hay, as the alternatives are crap (no KM over here). I order it online from a fantastic site that will donate to a local guinea pig rescue every time I order.

I do not believe buying from Oxbow supports pet stores - or certainly not enough to make a difference.
However, buying Oxbow FROM a petstore does support them.
But as I said - unless you can make every single person understand and care about the issue, there isn't much you can do about this.

I'm curious about people's opinions.... Without KM in the UK I have 2 options only. I can buy Oxbow - giving my pigs optimum nutrition (and supporting rescue), but in a small, indirect way supporting pet stores. Or I can feed my pigs crap food (which are also sold in pet stores). Which is the lesser of two evils?

Also, consider this. If I buy Oxbow from my current supplier I give money to the supplier (sells high quality products and no animals), to a piggie rescue, and to Oxbow themselves.
If Oxbow sells in pet stores, the pet stores may well make some profit from it.

However, the petstores sell a huge range of products, every one of which can make them a small profit.
If I continue to boycott pet stores, the money they will make from Oxbow (indirectly thanks to me) is minimal.
On the other hand, if I shopped at the store for my supplies they would make a fortune on things like bowls, leashes, food, treats, poop bags etc.

Overall, I do not think we need to worry about whether we should feed Oxbow just because they sell to pet stores. I think getting people to stop shopping at the pet stores is going to have the much greater effect.

[Jennicat]

Also to add to the discussion, Oxbow supports a ton of rescue work as well. They give rescue grants to small animal rescues, actively involve rescues in product formulation, and most rescues can apply to their rescue rewards programs to receive discounts on their products. They've even been known to donate products in extreme cases.

Oxbow is one of the few companies that cares about the animals and actively advocates the rescue of small animals. I can't think of a single other commercial food that does that (barring KM). For some species, they are one of the ONLY foods on the market that is suitable.

[guineapigfan9000]

I'm currently using Peters stuff - pellets and hay. Some people have given it bad reviews but the RSPCA endorses it AND you can get it from the supermarket, so not supporting pet shops (I haven't seen Peters in any pet shops either). Also, Peters Pasture hay is the only non-Alfalfa/Lucerne available except for tiny bags of Oxbow that cost heaps in shipping for about three days worth!

[wickedrodent]

I, for one, was excited at the fact that Petsmart started selling Oxbow. If you think about it, there are SO many people that unknowingly go into a petstore and buy an animal. Or, even the ones who buy from a breeder or petstore might not be educated on the proper food, etc. At least the animals might end up getting the proper nutriet. So yes, I think its a good thing that Oxbow is being sold in Petsmart. It would be 100x better if they stopped selling the other crappy food, and 1000x better if they stopped selling animals. I think its a step in the right direction on their part; However, I will NOT be shopping there.

[Jennicat]

Also, now thinking about it, why should Oxbow be penalized for being sold at Petsmart when no other company is? I haven't seen people suggesting that we boycott buying pigloos (even though Petsmart also pays that company money), or Yesterday's News, or Carefresh, or good quality dog foods that are sold there, or brands of dog toys?

Why should Oxbow be penalized over and above those companies when they already do MORE for rescue than those companies?