Is Oxbow really that great?

[Cagney]

I think I may not be posing my question here like I intend it. I'm not saying boycott Oxbow. I'm not saying boycott anything. I would ask that others not purchase live animals from petstores, and for me that's where the boycotting would end. Let me try and rephrase.


I am asking those of you who are critical of others for shopping at petstores, but purchase Oxbow directly from the company if you can't see how your money is still supporting a petstore?

Let's say Oxbow makes a profit of $100 from you over time. They use that $100 profit to make more product. The product made from your $100 is sold to a petstore. The petstore then in turn marks up the Oxbow and makes yet another profit. Therefore would not your $100 be a part of that petstores profit?

I'm curious as to how making such a critical stand of others (meaning the ones that only have to shop for products at a petstore, not live animals), by purchasing Oxbow straight from the company all you're doing is cutting out the middle man, which is the petstore.

I think Oxbow does many great things. They not only support rescues and do great things, but they make a wonderful product. Not every company that supports rescues makes a great product for other types of pets. Such as pedigree for dogs. They spend a great deal of money supporting shelters and rescues, but overall their food is not the best for your dog. With Oxbow you get great nurtitional support for your pet, plus you are supporting rescues. But also in a round about way you are also funding sales at petstores.

I'm just saying, maybe before someone is so critical about another person simply buying nothing else but the Oxbow product from a petstore such as petsmart, they should think about where their money spent with Oxbow is going.

[rabbitsncavyluv]

I don't see the correlation.

[PiggieMamaKelly]

That line of thinking is crazy-making Cagney. Should I stop paying my mortgage if my banker is breeding puppies? Wouldn't I be "supporting dog breeding"? It is impossible to try and cut ties with all avenues that may eventually lead to supporting beliefs we do not uphold.

PS- Great point about selective boycotting (ie not pigloos etc). If I boycotted pigloos, my pigs would boycott me.

[rabbitsncavyluv]

comments deleted

[crazywiggy]

Cagney, I understand what you are trying to say but I think you are missing the vital link in the chain.

I'm curious as to how making such a critical stand of others (meaning the ones that only have to shop for products at a petstore, not live animals), by purchasing Oxbow straight from the company all you're doing is cutting out the middle man, which is the petstore.

Please try to see the difference here....

The petstore does NOT make money from buying Oxbow, or from stocking it. They only make money from selling it.

The pet store has to pay Oxbow for their product. They then add their mark up and make a profit from the customer. If nobody buys the Oxbow products in the store the store does not profit from them. More than that - they have lost the money they spent on it in the first place.

If I buy direct from Oxbow - I give Oxbow my money. (Not the petstore).

If Oxbow uses some of their profits to make more products to sell to a petstore - so what? The petstore can ONLY profit from it if people buy it from them!

The petstores are not influenced by their suppliers - only their customers.

Lets say Oxbow decided to stop selling through petstores. Would it affect the petstores? Not in the slightest - because "Jo Public" would continue to use the store and just buy another brand of food. The petstore would not lose any money.

If, on the other hand, people stopped buying products from the petstore, the store would lose money. If the petstore knows that they are losing money BECAUSE they sel live animals, they would be forced to consider changing in order to maximise profits.

Now - please consider the difference between not buying animals, and not buying anything at all from pet stores.

How often do you actually get a new pet? Very rarely for most people - maybe one animal every few years.
But if you have pets - how often do you buy supplies (food, bedding etc)? Probably every week.

Petstores make the vast majority of their money selling supplies - the animals themselves are not big money spinners.

If you say to the petstore "I do not believe you should sell live animals, therefore I will not buy any live animals from you" the petstore can see that they have lost maybe $20 every 3 years from you. Not enough to care about really....

But if you say to the pet store "I do not believe you should sell live animals, therefore I will not buy anything from you (and by the way I own X number of pets!)" the petstore can see that they are losing maybe $20 a week in supplies. Enough of a difference for them to take notice.

The other thing to consider is that live animals bring in customers - even if they are hard to sell.
People, especially kids, like to see cute animals. Therefore the vast majority of people (who don't know about the problems) will choose to visit the stores that carry animals - even if they don't buy them. Thanks to the animals, the store makes a profit from supplies.
Even those who do not own pets do this. As a child - before I had any pets - we used to regularly go into the local petstores to see the cute animals. And although we didn't buy pet supplies, we did spend money on other things like food for garden birds, or books.

The stores are well aware that this currently works - the animals are a form of advertising. This is the important bit. The animals still make the store a profit even if they do not sell themselves!

If the petstores realised that live animals actually kept people OUT of the store, instead of bringing them IN they would stop stocking them.

[Luvmyboarz]

We compared prices and its cheaper to buy Oxbow stuff at Pet Supplies Plus, where we've been getting it, than at Petsmart. We used to feed our boys Kaytee when we first got them, until I read that Kaytee uses ethoxyquin in their pellets which is a suspected carcinogen. So we started buying Oxbow pellets and hays which I feel are not only healthier, but even look and smell better than Kaytee. So maybe we have to get it from petstores but since we couldn't afford Kleenmama's (which I would still like to try) I think Oxbow is the best stuff for our boys. They certainly look and act like healthy piggies
because of it.

[sophistacavy]

Originally Posted by Jennicat

Also, now thinking about it, why should Oxbow be penalized for being sold at Petsmart when no other company is? I haven't seen people suggesting that we boycott buying pigloos (even though Petsmart also pays that company money), or Yesterday's News, or Carefresh, or good quality dog foods that are sold there, or brands of dog toys?

Why should Oxbow be penalized over and above those companies when they already do MORE for rescue than those companies?

In The Whole Dog Journal's 2007 Dog Food review, there weren't that many "good" brands that met, or would meet, their approval. I'm speaking of the PetsFart near me, anyone else's may be different.
Nutro Natural Lamb Canned
Nutro Ultra Holistic Dry
Royal Canin dry
Some brands that many people may currently be confused into thinking that they're good brands, but that made it onto WDJ's "foods to avoid" list, or that wouldn't be approved by them if they reviewed it:
Purina ProPlan
BilJac
Eukanuba
Nutro Max
Goodlife Recipe
Blue Buffalo brand
etc, etc, etc.

I'm just warning people who may not be aware of quality vs. non-quality
dog foods, like you guys were just talking about the same kind of people, but w/ guinea pig food instead.

[TwinkieSlug]

Originally Posted by sophistacavy

In The Whole Dog Journal's 2007 Dog Food review, there weren't that many "good" brands that met, or would meet, their approval.

I'd like to see this review, do you have a link? This is obviously a guinea pig forum, so I don't want to turn it into a dog nutrition discussion, that's a very hot topic. But I have performance dogs so I am always interested in reading about dog nutrition. My experience is many dog people are very adamant about what is or makes a good food, yet many of their views are conflicting.

[Henle15]

How can someone support a petstore by buying directly from the supplier? That makes no sense, you have to buy from the specific place in order to support them and help them. If I buy oxbow directly, Petsmart sees none of that money...only oxbow gets it. I understand what you are trying to say, but there is no correlation between someone buying directly and someone buying from the actual petstore.

You cannot support a petstore by buying from the supplier. How exactly do you think that petsmart gets the money that I spend to buy the food? Does oxbow give petsmart money to sell their product? NO, oxbow is the one who makes money from selling the product to them and then petsmart makes money by marking it up.

If your reasoning is correct, then doesn't that mean whoever buys oxbow food directly also supports all stores that sell the product? not just petsmart.

I think it will be interesting to see if oxbow will see any significant increases in sales over the next year now that they do sell in petstores and are more accessible. Why is being more accessible a bad thing? Isn't that what we as guinea pig enthusiasts want for people that don't know about this food?

Like I said in my other post, they still won't get the business from my adopters because I sell the oxbow at such a low price and make very little money off it because I am a non-profit and want all GP supplies to be affordable for my adopters and people that don't want to support stores. Plus most people would rather give my rescue the money to help support it, rather than give a petstore money and help them keep abusing GP's.

Buying supplies from the store has little affect on weather they will continue to sell animals anyway...its all about the actual buying of the animal. If people only bought supplies at the store and never bought the animals...they wouldn't sell them. Petstores only sell animals based on impulse, very few purchased pigs are a well thought out purchase. They make people feel bad about leaving them in the aquariums and they will buy them and then they just restock and keep doing the same thing over and over.

[Cagney]

Thank you for the great posts. You have given me something to also think about.

I do believe though that Oxbow is or will be selling their product to petsmart and other large chain stores cheaper than they can sell it to local rescues. I speak from experience of what happened with science diet once it hit the petsmart shelves. I work for a veterinarian and I personally cannot buy science diet as cheap through my office as petsmart can offer it at regular price. (although I do not feed science diet anyway).

I do see the point about the small pets being used as a lure to get in cutomers as well, and get those impluse buys.

And many of you are correct. Joe Public will never stop shopping at petstores. That will never happen. I will have to stick to my belief that I can do a better good by informing Joe Public not to buy live animals at petstores though. It may be one at a time, but still better than zero. If every pet at the petstore doesn't get purchased they will eventually see that it's a loss. ANd that by allowing rescues to have a few adoptable rescues in place of the small pets there, like the cats, that they will not be throwing away money on the care of the mill animals. Especially if they never are sold. That way they still have the lure of the small pets, but the rescues take care of them.

Now because Joe Public won't stop shopping there I am happy to see Oxbow offered in petsmart. At least the little piggies stand a decent chance of getting a nutrionally balanced diet.

You also have to take into account the circumstances of my area. We don't have any well known small animal rescues. None. And I live in a fairly large bi-state midwestern city. The nearest being several hours away. This limits the ability for people to not shop for live pets at a petstore. Right now there is a little boar who has been sitting in a shelter for over 3 months. No one has been able to get him out. I am at max, and so is the other woman in my area that does guinea pig rescues. 2 more were euthanized this week at a high kill shelter long before anyone could get them out. One being a beautiful lilac male who was only 6 months old.

I am going to try to order online. But if I find it to take away from my ability to rescue I will have to stop. I cannot in my mind justify not buying product from the petstore if it means I can save a few more cavies lives. And it would just be nice if some can look at all sides and not be so condesending about it.

I am beyond max with what I have now. A small house, 3 rescued dogs, a husband who is too understanding of my habit of bringing home strays, . Plus my 4 permanent cavies, and 4 more rescues. I will be taking in a mom and her 5 babies later this week, because let's face it the babies are fairly easy to adopt out, why I dunno. Heck even my beautiful human baby was adopted.

I as a mother must put my human family first, pets second, and if that means stopping at petsmart to save a few dollars so my human child can have what she wants and my furry pets a few more rescues to help me take care of I'm going to keep on doing it. And I can't feel bad about it if along the way I stop a few more people from buying the live pets at that petstore.

[Jennicat]

Actually Cagney, I doubt that. Oxbow at Petsmart is MUCH more expensive even than at other pet stores around here. Their 10lb bags are around $13, but the other local pet supply store has them for $7.5. I also don't see how ordering online will take away your ability to rescue? Most of the time it's cheaper to order bulk online than to buy small bags in person.

Originally Posted by Cagney

I as a mother must put my human family first, pets second, and if that means stopping at petsmart to save a few dollars so my human child can have what she wants and my furry pets a few more rescues to help me take care of I'm going to keep on doing it. And I can't feel bad about it if along the way I stop a few more people from buying the live pets at that petstore.

I have to admit, this made me sad. You're teaching your daughter that it's fine to compromise your ethics as long as you can go and buy something frivolous for yourself that you want.

[Cagney]

You know you're right. I'm going to get rid of all of my pets, stop working as a vet tech and stuff envelopes from home. So we can have every frivolous thing we ever dreamed of. Thanks for worring about what I do and don't teach my child. At the age of 2 she's better behaved and more caring than most adults I know. It's obvious I'm doing something wrong. Especially if you consider clothing and feeding a child to be frivolous. Or being able to feed my dogs high quality foods to keep them in top performance shape.

As usual the point has been missed completely. You're reading what you want to hear. If you'd felt the need to read the entire statement I stated I have placed an online order and am going to try to purchase online. But with rising shipping costs it may not continue to be the most cost effective way.

Oxbow for me is only $9.99 for the 10lb bag locally.

And where do you purpose I buy my dog's food as well?

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by Cagney

You know you're right. I'm going to get rid of all of my pets, stop working as a vet tech and stuff envelopes from home. So we can have every frivolous thing we ever dreamed of. Thanks for worring about what I do and don't teach my child. At the age of 2 she's better behaved and more caring than most adults I know. It's obvious I'm doing something wrong.

Yep. That's exactly what I said, that you were raising your child wrong, and that you frequently abused animals, took poor care of your pets, and did nothing to help animals at all. Except that I didn't. If you're bound and determined to make my comments into some huge commentary on your personal ethos and fitness to raise a child, I can't stop you, but that was not the intent.

You can do many things right and one thing not right and still be a good pet parent, a good people parent, and a good person, and nowhere in my post did I imply otherwise.

[Cagney]

No, but you've chosen to comment on only one part of what I said and negatively at that.

Nothing about the fact that I wasn't aware of online sites that offered the products for free or cheaper shipping. And that I'd looked into it and am placing an online order now that I know.

And many of those sites I won't shop on either because they offer veterinarian prescribed drugs that are not correctly stores. I will not shop at those sites for the same reasons you state you won't shop at a petstore. I will not give my money to a business that is potentially harming pets to turn a bigger profit.

Now if it's ok I need to leave for work. So I can spend my day taking care of ill pets and neglected ones. So that my family of humans and pets can continue to have the things they do. Even though my child had surgery a few days ago.

[Jennicat]

I didn't realize you needed the accolades of trying to order online. Thank you for trying an option that doesn't support a business who buys from mills that breed animals, frequently stomp them to death on the floor, neuter rabbits without anesthesia, and repeatedly send out sick and dying animals. It's great that you will continue to order online as long as it does not financially impact you.

I am personally really bothered by people who "walk the walk" and advocate that OTHER people stop shopping at pet stores, but can't "talk the talk" if it's going to cost them more money.

It also bothers me that you are advocating people write Oxbow letters about their poor business ethics for selling to Petsmart when you yourself would shop there if ordering online or shopping elsewhere would cost you more money.

As for where to buy your dog food, you have a lot of options. Have you looked for feed stores in your town? They typically sell to livestock, but most carry high quality dog foods. Not really knowing a.) where you live and b.) what you're feeding your dogs I don't have a lot of insight.