Do you keep vegan pets?

[thalestral]

Just as guinea pigs belong to order Rodentia while scientists dispute whether they are in fact true rodents?

Edit:

The classification in the Order Carnivora does not necessarily mean that a dog's diet must be restricted to meat; unlike an obligate carnivore, such as the cat family with its shorter small intestine, a dog is neither dependent on meat-specific protein nor a very high level of protein in order to fulfill its basic dietary requirements

Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A good starting place but with little info unfortunately, as with many wiki pieces.

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by thalestral

Just as guinea pigs belong to order Rodentia while scientists dispute whether they are in fact true rodents?

Again... no evidence to suggest they are anything but. Seeing as Wikipedia can be edited by anyone the information is slightly less than reliable at the best of times.

[crazywiggy]

I must admit this is something I feel particularly strongly about.

Firstly, dogs and cats are carnivores - I'm sorry, but I do not believe there is anything to debate there.

Cats are "obligate carnivores" - they MUST have animal derived nutrients. Without them they suffer from ill health, including blindness, and eventual death through malnutrition.

Dogs are not "obligates", they are just "carnivores". The fact that they eat the occasional mouthful of grass, or plant based food in the digestive tract of their prey is irrelevent. The single, most important part of their diet is other animals. Their entire digestive system, from teeth, through the length of gut, enzymes produced etc are those of a carnivore. They are anoatomically and behaviourally evolved to HUNT and to SCAVENGE. They are not omnivores.

I feel that pet care is something to take seriously. If for some reason you can not, or will not, provide that animal with what it needs - you shouldn't own one!

I do not believe it is good ethics, or good animal welfare, to feed a vegetarian or vegan diet to a carnivorous animal. In the case of dogs, some people have suggested a dog can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet. I don't think this is enough. Just because dogs CAN live on a vegan diet - doesn't mean they SHOULD.

I just feel that people need to loko after their animals properly and provide for their needs. If they can not do this then it is THEM who should compromise - not the animal. Either feed your pets a suitable diet or don't get them. I'm sorry, but I have to agree that feeding a dog or cat vegan pet food is no different to feeding a piggie meat.

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by daftscotslass

Again... no evidence to suggest they are anything but.

Really? All I've read on the subject states that the most recent fossils of members of Caviinae I believe it was though it could be the one above (I don't think it included capys and maras but I may be misremembering) cast a fair amount of doubt on their inclusion in Rodentia. Subsequent research has been done which diminishes the likelihood but still leaves room for debate. If there are newer papers suggesting otherwise though those would be of great interest to me.

Originally Posted by daftscotslass

Seeing as Wikipedia can be edited by anyone the information is slightly less than reliable at the best of times.

Indeed, but luckily in this case it is doing no more than reporting the general feeling in the scientific world on the matter. The very fact we are having this debate illustrates that there is in fact debate over whether dogs are carnivores or omnivores!

Again if there are any approved recent papers settling the matter one way or the other then I'd be delighted to read them as the most recent thinkings I have read are still inconclusive


crazywiggy, I am interested to know why you would be against feeding a dog a vegan diet even under the hypothetical proof that it would be just as healthy? If all nutritional needs were being met and the dog was just as it would be on an omnivorous diet why would it be so wrong? Is it equally wrong for those that keep rats on a vegan diet despite them being able to be just as healthy and happy on a vegan diet as an omnivorous one?

[fuzzworth]

Thalestral,

I appreciate your view point but I have actually worked with certified (from a college not some random joe off the street) canine nutritionist that will state Dogs are carnivores.

The problem with the scientific world and the world in general is that you can ALWAYS find scientists or people that will tell you when you want to hear. There are still scientists that will state the world is flat. Do you believe that? I certianly don't.

In my eyes is still wrong and unhealthy and deadly to FORCE (yes it is forcing because given the choice between a salad and meaty foods a carnivore will eat the meaty food!) a carnivore to eat a vegan diet.

On some levels it is hypocritical to keep a carnivore and advocate a vegan lifestyle. Keeping pets, rescued pets, is like eating free range meat. It is a lesser evil but still contributes to the problem. Using the rationale that you are cleaning up someone elses (i.e. mills and breeders and irresponsible pet owners) is like saying that you might as well consume the cows because they are all ready in the slaughter house. To me its trying to rationalize your choices that don't fit your moral stand point.

( on a side note: this is a fantastic debate! I am throughly enjoying it)

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by thalestral

crazywiggy, I am interested to know why you would be against feeding a dog a vegan diet even under the hypothetical proof that it would be just as healthy? If all nutritional needs were being met and the dog was just as it would be on an omnivorous diet why would it be so wrong? Is it equally wrong for those that keep rats on a vegan diet despite them being able to be just as healthy and happy on a vegan diet as an omnivorous one?

Surely by that rationale then humans would be as well taking daily nutrition pills rather than preparing and eating a meal? As I have said before, I am positive that human nutritional needs could easily be met in pellet/pill form yet we choose to eat because it is more mentally fulfilling for us to do so.

Why would we deny our animals the right to eat as their bodies were designed to do? Why would we choose to make ourselves a roast dinner (be it roast beef or a nut roast!!) yet feed our dogs and cats pelleted food and water?

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by daftscotslass

Why would we deny our animals the right to eat as their bodies were designed to do? Why would we choose to make ourselves a roast dinner (be it roast beef or a nut roast!!) yet feed our dogs and cats pelleted food and water?

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Guinea pigs are not designed to eat pellets yet part of their food intake is in pellet form to make sure they get the correct nutrition. At no point have I advocated feeding an animal or a human a purely pelleted diet, though I believe many pet owners do in fact feed their cats and dogs on food purely out of tins and packets.

Are you trying to say that a dog not eating meat is more analogous to a human eating pills rather than to a human also not eating meat? Really don't get where you are going with that

Not eating meat does not equal not eating real food. Why if something is capable of not eating meat and being perfectly healthy is it so bad if it doesn't actually eat that "surplus" food?

Honestly, I'm not sure why people are getting their knickers in a twist at a) there being the issue of debate on nutritional needs for some animals which I personally consider to be a very healthy thing to debate!, and b) the idea that if these animals did in fact not need meat some owners might choose not to feed the meat that isn't needed!

[thalestral]

I think I'll let this get more back on topic as it were as I realise I'm just repeating myself and people seem to be getting a little worked up. All I meant to say was that there is a debate - whether you agree with it or not! - and that I believe in optimal care whatever that may entail. If vegan care is just as optimal then that is a happy coincidence.

[fuzzworth]

Well my knickers arent in a twist but I firmly believe in what im stating.

Guinea pigs along with their pellets recieve hay and fresh vegetables. SO along with kibble you should in theory suppliment with fresh foods for your other animals as well. Personally I could go into a whole other debate about kibbles for dogs and cats. I feed fresh raw foods to all my pets cats dogs, horses, fish ( i actually cultured live foods for my fish )guinea pigs and bunnys.

The original question that was posed was weather it was

Originally Posted by salana

So the question I would like to bring up for debate is, is it appropriate to impose your beliefs on an animal with dramatically different dietary needs?

The answer in my mind being a very strong no, it is not appropriate or healthy.

I think that you get a lot of carnivores lacking the mental stimulation that a proper diet would provide. It takes jaw muscle to shew apart raw food and mental power to think about how to eat something where as kibble is mindless eat as fast as you can food. This is why recreational chews are so important to dogs. They need the mental exercise as well.

And flat out a vegan diet can not provide the nutrients for a carnivore to remain healthy.

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by fuzzworth

And flat out a vegan diet can not provide the nutrients for a carnivore to remain healthy.

Absolutely, the conversation had just deviated slightly to the grey area animals which was most probably my fault *grins*

Frankly I am not in favour of any wholly pelleted or processed diet though I know that there are some medical exceptions for which it is necessary to be on a prescription diet. I can't imagine how boring and un-stimulating it must be to live on biscuits!

[crazywiggy]

I do not agree that whether dogs are carnivores or omnivores is up for debate.

Dogs are canidae.

Look at every single species of wild canine - wolf, fox, etc. EVERY single one is carnivorous.
Look at domestic dogs themselves.... given the choice they will choose a meat based diet over a veggie one. (Kibble may be an exception here because it isn't "real" food, so the taste and texture etc is different anyway)
Look at stray or feral dogs, or the wild dogs, they may scavenge ANY food in order to survive, but they will still choose meat over veg or cereals.

You should also consider behaviour. There are two main points I feel are relevent here....

1) ALL Canines are predators. This is completely without doubt. They locate, chase, hunt and kill other animals to eat. Even though most domestic dogs never actually fulfil the complete cycle, many dog behaviours are simply versions of parts of it. For example, hounds still have the strong instinct to hunt. Border collies herd sheep by hunting them - they just omit the killing part. Predatory animals are meat eaters.

2) Dogs are also scavengers. Just because they have the instinct and ability to hunt for food, does not mean they don't like a free lunch as much as the rest of us! If a canine finds food available freely (i.e. it does not have to hunt it or kill it, thus expending energy) it will eat it, even if it is not meat.

I think this second point is where some of the confusion lies. Yes, dogs, and their wild counterparts, will eat non-animal foods. BUT this makes up only a very tiny proportion of their diet, and is usually consumed only for a specific reason (eg eating grass to vomit) or because there is no meat available. This does not make them omnivores. Omnivores eat a varied diet, consisting of both animal and non-animal foods. Dogs eat animals, primarily, almost exclusively.

I have only ever heard the "dogs are omnivores" rumour spread by two groups of people.

1) Vegan dog owners who do not like the idea of feeding meat to their own pets. (I have no problem with their beleifs about meat, only their inflicting it upon another species).

2) More commonly - the pet food industry. Pet food manufacturers tell people what they want them to hear, to encourage them to buy their products. (Just like pet stores telling people that guinea pigs need store bought cages, salt licks and vitamin drops for their water). Most commercial dog food is made up mostly of fillers - cereals generally. This is for one reason only - cereals are CHEAPER than meat. Of course, some people have questioned whether a cereal based diet is appropriate for a carnivorous species. So, of course, the industry starts to reassure us that dogs don't actually need meat - that these cheap alternatives are just as good. How very convenient for them!

Thalestral:

If there were adequate proof that dogs were equally healthy on vegan diets I would be more open to the idea... but there isn't. Until then it is only anecdotal (and from biased sources), or minimal.

Even so, I would still question it. Everything about dogs - their anatomy, physiology, morphology, evolotion, behaviour etc is that of a carnivore. Their entire digestive tract is designed for animnal-products, not cereals or veggies.
I am not convinced that you can completely remove from the dogs diet the one thing it is designed and built to eat, and make up its entire diet with foods it is not designed to eat, without any ill-effects.

[CF#5]

The vitamin D3 added to guinea pig pellets is not vegan. D3 (cholecalciferol) is always animal-derived. D2 (Ergocalciferol) is synthetic and vegan. Studies in humans show that D3 is more potent than D2, but it's also more difficult to absorb. So the best solution for humans is to take D2 and take a lot of it. It will be easier to absorb, and the higher quantity will make up for the reduced potency. I don't know how guinea pigs would react differently to D2 instead of D3, but I suspect it's not really a critical vitamin for them since their skin is completely covered and they can't really absorb sunlight to produce their own D3 anyway. Maybe Oxbow would be willing to change to D2 if enough people complained. So some of us may already be stricter vegans than our guinea pigs. Of course, some guinea pigs are able to thrive on a pellet-free diet. Pellets were originally designed to be the only dietary requirement for lab animals who usually weren't kept alive very long.

[Pumpkin_RIP]

My opinion on it is: You should NEVER feed any animal(such as a cat or dog or other meat eating animal)vegan foods. It has been proven to be very bad for your pet, as their bodies, by nature, CANNOT digest fruits, tofu, etc. It doesn't give them any of the nutrients that they need, and could possibly slowly kill your pet. I do not believe it is supporting the meat industry by owning a pet that eats meat, because God/nature has made the animals that way, and you are actually saving lives by adopting a pet(whether it is a meat eater or not) Animals don't have the choice that we have to be vegan or not. I always feel so bad for the pets that are forced to be vegan when they naturally should not be. It is very harsh on their bodies.

[Susan9608]

I do not believe it is supporting the meat industry by owning a pet that eats meat, because God/nature has made the animals that way, and you are actually saving lives by adopting a pet(whether it is a meat eater or not)

Well ... I have to disagree about supporting the meat industry. If you're buying meat, no matter what your purpose, you ARE supporting the meat industry.

So then the question becomes, if you feel like it's not okay to keep carnivorous animals as vegans, but you also feel it's not okay to support factory farming, what do you do? How do you feed your pets?

[crazywiggy]

Susan - I have to agree here... if you buy meat you are supporting the meat industry, and that is an ethical decision people have to make.

As someone who is both an omnivore myself, and a strong believer in animal welfare, I therefore have no problem with keeping carnivorous pets and feeding them a meat based diet.

I just think the welfare of our own pets is at least equal to that of the animals they would eat. So if you will not feed your pets meat, you should not keep carnivores - for their own welfare.

Maybe some people could get around it a little by at least opting for higher welfare meat for their pets - maybe by feeding meat only from free-range/organic sources. I know this isn't perfect for those with vegan beliefs - but it is the only compromise I can see.