Pet stores you SUPPORT?

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

Lets start categorizing "good" rescues and "bad" rescues then. Most shelters, and many humane societies, don't do home visits. Are they part of the problem too? .

Actually I don't believe so. People tend not to walk into a shelter on impulse and adopt on impulse. Most people have some level of forethought when walking into a shelter or rescue that they don't have when they see the bright, shining lights and advertisements of their local pet store that sits next to the local supermarket to deliberately encourage that sort of traffic.

[CavySpirit]

The mind set of someone going to a shelter or rescue to adopt vs. buying at a pet store are totally different from the outset.

Basically, a rescue can be duped by an adopter just as easy as a well intentioned store employee can be duped by a customer.

To that, I completely disagree. Try doing rescue for a while.

[steve_and_pigs]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

The mind set of someone going to a shelter or rescue to adopt vs. buying at a pet store are totally different from the outset.
To that, I completely disagree. Try doing rescue for a while.

I should have left off the "just as easy" part. Of course, anyone making the effort to go to a rescue is most likely well intentioned, as daftscotslass, points out. Why would anyone subject themselves to an interview if they have no intension of meeting any requirements. This is a good point.

The execption would be those that are just looking to save a few bucks, as adoption fees are typically less than pet store prices.

Just curious, how often do you actually need to turn folks down, and for what reasons?

[steve_and_pigs]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Well, spontaneous adoptions are maybe a little extreme ...

The idea behind adoptions being more difficult than purchase is that it does not allow people to just waltz into the rescue one day and pick up a pet on a whim.

Spontaneous animal purchases are usually the ones that end up being dumped later on ... because the owners get tired of the pet, because they didn't realize how much care it would require, because they don't have time for it, etc. Recues want people to put more effort into their adoptions than that, to try to avoid those kind of outcomes.

I should have clarified. By "spontaneous adoption", I mean that the cute adoptable animals are somewhere where someone ignorant of adoption might see them, like a pet store, and when they inquire about them, they learn about adoption. Currently, if you are going to a rescue or a shelter, you already know about adoption. If they folks that are ignorant are part of the problem, they are not going to magically educate themselves. You need to get in their face (in a nice way).

Originally Posted by Susan9608

There need to be more stringent regulations for both parts of the owning animals process. I'm not exactly sure how it could be implemented or enforced, but if the government can figure out a way to fine you for not stopping at a red light without anyone actually physically seeing you do it, then I'm sure that someone, some where can figure something out.

I somehow disagree that all animal welfare advocates would be satisfied with whatever regulations the government comes up with. The details do really matter. Providing a description of what specifically you would like to see might help folks wrap their head around the idea.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

Just curious, how often do you actually need to turn folks down, and for what reasons?

Most people turn themselves down. While we don't have the time nor resources to do house calls, we never (or rarely except for heavily qualified out of the immediate driving area) do same day adoptions. It's always a two-visit process, each visit usually being at least an hour, sometimes the visits can take most of an afternoon. On some Saturdays, we can have several families visiting and overlapping--it can be a real circus.

Here are the main scenarios. Kid(s) want guinea pigs. Kid(s) beg for weeks, months on end. Parents finally determine their little saints are responsible and ready. Set out to adopt with good intentions.

Here's how they naturally disqualify themselves and decide NOT to adopt guinea pigs.

Kids face the reality of guinea pigs
- Parents see size of cages, level of care required, hear about length of commitment, etc.
- After all the begging and whatnot, the kids end up being afraid to hold the guinea pigs or interact with them. They look cute from afar, but the reality of them is scary. This can happen with any age kid.
- Parents realize the reality coupled with the amount of work and start to steer the kid(s) into other options.

Kids face the reality of cleaning cages
- Again, parents see size of cages, level of care required, hear about length of commitment, etc.
- SOME parents are pretty adamant with their kids that THEY (the kids) are going to be the ones cleaning cages and feeding, etc. (Some aren't, and want the guinea pigs as much for themselves as their kids, so this is less of an issue).
- I usually have kids help me clean cages when I sense that the chores, while 'sounding' easy now, are going to turn into real chores later. I go through a pretty thorough explanation of what their new morning and evening and weekend chores are going to be--trying to paint the picture in their current lives as much as possible.
- I'd say about 25% of those cases, the kids and parents opt not to adopt when they realize the amount of work needed for the cute little fur balls.

Smart parents come alone first
- This is not the norm, but I'd say this is about 10% of the situations where the parents are investigating what it will really take to adopt and care for guinea pigs. Probably half of them decide it's too much.

Initial phone calls vs. Initial visits
- More people are disqualified over the phone than in person. Sometimes by me directly, but more often because of their unwillingness to meet our adoption criteria. No matter what, I usually know within the first 30 seconds of a phone call which way it's going to go. I've taken many HUNDREDS of adoption (and surrender) calls. Whenever I sense that the phone call is going to end without a visit, I ALWAYS make sure I tell them about adopting from shelters vs. buying from the pet stores when I suspect that they are going to go out do whatever they want anyway.

The worst calls I have to deal with are from teachers. Second worst are from the adults who used to 'raise' them as kids or earlier in their lives. Both types generally think they know it all already. No matter how kindly you put it, no matter how well you explain it, teachers are highly insulted that you won't adopt out classroom pets to them.

Rejected adopter goes to pet store? VERY RARE.
They are already smart enough to have found a rescue. They will usually go to a shelter where the screening process is next to nothing. In my area, there are plenty of shelters to choose from along with other rescues with less stringent criteria. But people find me first, because I'm well-known in area (I get many pet store and shelter referrals) and my sites are heavily trafficked--so they get good initial information whether they want it or not.

If you look at my adopting page on Cavy Spirit: http://cavyspirit.com/adopting.htm you can read our adoption criteria for yourself. Number one reason on phone call for parents to reject themselves before we even get started, they INSIST that they only want one guinea pig. Okie, dokie. Not from me. I refer them to a shelter AFTER explaining why we NEVER adopt out single guinea pigs.

Second reason, cage location. Some people still think they can keep guinea pigs as livestock, that is, outdoors. Of course, that's a big no way. Many parents start out thinking that the cage can be in their kid's bedroom, but I can usually get that changed. Once in a great while, that's a rejection point for them.

Cage size is less of an issue than you might think.

Another reason, of course, is when they mention breeding or showing. If they just mention showing, I'm usually able to open their naive eyes on what they think that's about. But, when they mention babies or breeding, sometimes, the 'nice to have babies' can be turned around, sometimes not.

And sometimes there are other reasons that you just have to go with your gut on. I made one mistake a long time ago and didn't trust my instincts. I'll never make that mistake again.

That said, we're not perfect, we can't predict the future. We take back any animals we adopt out, no questions. And it does happen, but given our numbers, it's very infrequent.

[Jennicat]

Agree with what CavySpirit has said. We have to actually reject very few people, they take care of it themselves.

[CavySpirit]

I should probably add that in our adoption process, we state we do a final follow-up visit in their home. THAT is what keeps them honest about cage location and size. Otherwise, they would just tell us what we want to hear.

Frequently, a number of people say they've already got a 'big' cage. I always ask them about that. Some people have already built a C&C cage. Major brownie points with me! But MOST people say they saw the cages and want to get one from me. The pet store cage purchasers have to be educated about their options. Or I get, 'we've got a big hutch already.' Only a few of these pet store cage people reject themselves out of unwillingness to increase the size. Again, when that happens, I direct them to the shelters. They shouldn't have an animal, but what can you do? Some people will never get it.

[mbator]

I am glad you asked this question, there are so many negative remarks about "Pet Stores". Well they are in it for the business and I feel as long as they take care of their animals its ok. I don't agree with overpopulation of animals but that is life.
I live in a very small town, no pet stores at all and I have to drive 2 hours out of town to get to one. We do have a Walmart but they don't carry a lot of the guinea pig food I like to buy. If we did have a shelter close buy that would be my first choice of course, but for those of us who do not have that choice at least we are giving these animals a home, breeding is going to go on no matter what we say. I stopped going to KFC because they brutally abuse their chickens, everyone should check that out, to me this is a whole lot worse.....I have backyard hens as well that is why I am sensitive to these kind of issues.

[steve_and_pigs]

Originally Posted by mbator

I am glad you asked this question, there are so many negative remarks about "Pet Stores". Well they are in it for the business and I feel as long as they take care of their animals its ok. I don't agree with overpopulation of animals but that is life.
I live in a very small town, no pet stores at all and I have to drive 2 hours out of town to get to one. We do have a Walmart but they don't carry a lot of the guinea pig food I like to buy. If we did have a shelter close buy that would be my first choice of course, but for those of us who do not have that choice at least we are giving these animals a home, breeding is going to go on no matter what we say. I stopped going to KFC because they brutally abuse their chickens, everyone should check that out, to me this is a whole lot worse.....I have backyard hens as well that is why I am sensitive to these kind of issues.

I think the main arguments are that, regardless of how well the pet store cares for the animals, there are still a few problems:

1. What care/conditions did the animal come from? Was it a breeder mill? Are you benefiting the inhumane breeding of animals even though your pet store cares for their animals well.
2. What is the state of orphaned animals in the area? Are animals in need being passed up for those bred for "sale".
3. They will sell the animal to anyone, with no instruction, even if that means various forms of bad news for the animal.

I'm finding the third issue most interesting. Even if the animals were arriving in the stores on silver platters, how do you cut down on the poor choice purchases of animals that folks complain pet stores enable. The unfortunate fact is that the pet stores benefit from these sales, so it is against their monetary interest to prevent them. These sales contribute to pet overpopulation issues.

I can certainly see avoiding pet stores that sell pets when (1) and (2) are going on. I really haven't figured out (3) yet. I'm definitely avoiding petco and the like, that is simple enough, but saying a pet store is a pet store is a pet store, I'm not totally convinced (yet).

[Susan9608]

breeding is going to go on no matter what we say.

People used to say the same thing about slavery.

Hmm ... is slavery going on in America right now? Well, let me catch myself before some smart ass decides to butt in. Is LEGAL slavery occuring in America right now?

Nope. good thing not everyone held those kinds of defeatist attitude that you do about what is "always" going to happen.

but for those of us who do not have that choice at least

You *always* have a choice. You might not like what that choice is (ie, NOT having a guinea pig/or pet of your choice) but you do HAVE a choice.

Providing a description of what specifically you would like to see might help folks wrap their head around the idea.

I'm at work - I have 2 kids on vents today. That kind of thing will have to wait until I have more time and inclination to put the effort into putting my ideas into words. But I have no doubt that it can be done. Sure there will always be people who will break the law, but if there are consequences, then at least those laws are punishable/enforceable.

[steve_and_pigs]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

I should probably add that in our adoption process, we state we do a final follow-up visit in their home. THAT is what keeps them honest about cage location and size. Otherwise, they would just tell us what we want to hear.

I read the process. A debate over rescue requirements would be fun, but certainly best left for another thread.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

I read the process. A debate over rescue requirements would be fun, but certainly best left for another thread.

No, not fun. The rescue requirements are all there for specific reasons based on experience and personal resources. When you've been doing rescue for a couple of years, then I'll gladly listen to your opinion on rescue requirements. In the meantime, I'm very well aware of the perceptions of the dynamics of our requirements. There are damn few rescues that make it past the 10 year mark. Most burn out within the first couple of years. We all shoulder and pay for too much in too many ways. Find another avenue to look for theoretical perfection.

I do have what I feel is a solution to the pet store/pet trade issue. It's a market-driven solution that if I can ever muster up enough money and energy and commitment to launch, I would do it. In the meantime, it's a simmering, back-burner project for me that I'm not quite ready to share. I think it would only take about a $1M to start, which in the grand scheme of things is peanuts, but one I don't have the energy to pursue right now.

[steve_and_pigs]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

Most people turn themselves down.

That's good to know. And thanks for the summary. Seems like kids are a central issue, as well as disagreement over adoption requirements.

I might have turned myself down if I knew how much poo I'd be cleaning up! I'm glad I didn't. It's no big deal, and I love my piggies!

Rules and requirements aside, the folks that turn themselves down because they learn about what they are getting into are probably the most interesting with regards to the "pet store" impulse buy problem.

If they are in a pet store, they are probally pretty ignorant to the whole state of affairs. In lieu of banning or regulating the sale of all pet animals, it would be nice if there was something or someone there to interrupt that impulse. Perhaps provide a little info, help them find the "right" pet, recommend thinking about it, etc. These people aren't necessarily bad, they just lack information. Unfortunately, most people don't learn till after the fact. I know I didn't.

[steve_and_pigs]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

No, not fun. The rescue requirements are all there for specific reasons based on experience and personal resources. When you've been doing rescue for a couple of years, then I'll gladly listen to your opinion on rescue requirements. In the meantime, I'm very well aware of the perceptions of the dynamics of our requirements. There are damn few rescues that make it past the 10 year mark. Most burn out within the first couple of years. We all shoulder and pay for too much in too many ways. Find another avenue to look for theoretical perfection.

Ok, no debate on rescue requirements. Seemed like an interesting topic. I'll admit my experience is only from an adopters perspective, not a rescue. The "pet store impulse enabler" thing is still interesting though.

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

I do have what I feel is a solution to the pet store/pet trade issue. It's a market-driven solution that if I can ever muster up enough money and energy and commitment to launch, I would do it. In the meantime, it's a simmering, back-burner project for me that I'm not quite ready to share. I think it would only take about a $1M to start, which in the grand scheme of things is peanuts, but one I don't have the energy to pursue right now.

I can't argue, solutions do take time and $$. A market based solution would make a lot of sense, as it would be take on the pet industry on their own turf. You have 8000 members. $125 each would be a million.

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by mbator

I don't agree with overpopulation of animals but that is life.

I'm curious to know... what is there to disagree with overpopulation of animals?

[Biscuit]

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

I can't argue, solutions do take time and $$. A market based solution would make a lot of sense, as it would be take on the pet industry on their own turf. You have 8000 members. $125 each would be a million.

Such endeavors tend to require an investment of such a chunk of a persons life $1,000,000 would seem even more like pocket change.

[Coiler]

I'm ready to give $125 US but since a lot of members are kids, I would send S250 US instead. When you can begin T let us know so we can help.I am SO ready to make a difference.

[steve_and_pigs]

Originally Posted by Biscuit

Such endeavors tend to require an investment of such a chunk of a persons life $1,000,000 would seem even more like pocket change.

Yes, that what keeps me from starting my own business. Well, it's two things for me. I don't have the "great idea", and I'm not willing to make the personal commitment right now. I can relate to that. I'm sure T could raise well over a million in investment capitol if she wanted to in no time flat.

[Susan9608]

In lieu of banning or regulating the sale of all pet animals, it would be nice if there was something or someone there to interrupt that impulse

Even if there was something - not sure what it would be - in place to prevent the impulse buy, then there's still the issue of buying and selling living beings as merchandise. I'm not sure you'll ever convince me or a lot of animal rights activists/welfarists that the selling of living, sentient beings is a good or sound practice.

[steve_and_pigs]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Even if there was something - not sure what it would be - in place to prevent the impulse buy, then there's still the issue of buying and selling living beings as merchandise. I'm not sure you'll ever convince me or a lot of animal rights activists/welfarists that the selling of living, sentient beings is a good or sound practice.

A petco I went into gave me there "guinea pig fact sheet". Needless to say, it was grossly inadequate. I'd like to see more rescue/shelter presence in pet stores, but that is a controversial subject. I suppose I just like the idea of a gorilla war on their turf. It would have to be done very cleverly. I'd volunteer for that!

Okay. Totally hypothetical. Lets say I've got a pet store that:

1. Does not do breeder mill animals.
2. Only takes in local humanely bred animals when orphan animals are unavailable in area, and their customers are asking for animals. Works with local shelters and rescues to assure this. Let's assume there is some humane breeder network for now, that does a good job. Perhaps that is impossible, but that is a separate essay.
3. Takes good care of their animals, the whole deal, even good vet care.
4. Has staff well trained in the animals.
5. Educates their customers before "selling" any pet. Even has a "waiting period" to avoid impulse buys. Has policies about various pets and children.

Is this treating pets as merchandise? I'm not trying to be facetious. I'm trying to reverse the thesis:

"Why all pet "selling" stores are bad"

to:

"What a good pet "selling" store would really be."

The original poster though their pet store was doing a good job. I'm guessing a lot of people want to think their favorite mom-and-pop pet store is doing a good job. I think the latter essay could be used to point out why their store is coming up short in a effective way, without insulting any good intentions.

Of course, if you are opposed to humans keeping pets altogether, merchandise or not, then it is impossible to write the latter essay. Fair enough.