Overuse of medicines

[hydrohoki]

So I'm probably opening a can of worms but this is something that I've been thinking about ever since I joined here.

Does anyone else think that the overuse of ivermectin is going to cause problems in guinea pigs down the line?

What I mean by that is that ivermectin-resistant bugs are being created through this "better be safe than sorry" approach to treatment. We are seeing the same thing happen with antibiotics in humans and ivermectin treatment in horses (though I no longer have access to the journal articles I might be able to dig them up if necessary). So to me, it is logical and there may be evidence out there stating that it is getting harder to treat with ivermectin and have it be effective.

So while I agree that it is necessary to treat if mites are present and I'm not at all advocating letting pigs suffer, what I am questioning is the constant advice to "just go ahead and treat." I'm wondering what other treatments are available if ivermectin fails.

For the record, I'm curious for input and discussion. I don't have all the answers to this.

[daftscotslass]

Personally I don't believe in treating piggies routinely with ivermectin as a preventative because I'm worried about what you're saying. But I do treat them at the first signs and believe this to be absolutely necessary.

As an (relatively) experienced owner I can tell the difference between when my pigs are just having a scratch and when they're showing signs of being uncomfortable. It's rare that mine need treated. I think that new/inexperienced owners should always consult a vet before self-medicating and I'm seeing a bit of a dangerous streak in people administering antibiotics before seeing a vet. I don't think anyone should encourage a new owner to go out and treat their own pet for the reason that 1) It's illegal in places to do so over seeking veterinary treatment and 2) I've seen people's calculations go wrong. This is, of course, if help is available. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes vets are not cavy-savvy. Sometimes there aren't vets available for rapid treatment.

There are alternatives to ivermectin such as selamectin (revolution, stronghold) that are effective against mites. I don't believe there's evidence to suggest, at this moment in time, there is a problem with ivermectin resistance in cavies though there is evidence to suggest it's happening with parasites that affect cattle etc.

[mommyoffive]

I have treatment my guinea pigs one (three doses) time with ivermectin and thats all for me. I dont plan on adopting anymore until my last one has passed away and that should years from now. I dont believe in routine treatment of ivermectin because it shouldnt be needed if your guinea pigs have not come into contant with outside guinea pigs, and mine havnt.

[TX_2_Pigs]

I treated my 2 boys around this time last year because Harry had a "V" shaped spot on his back where the hair was missing. By the time the treatments were over most of his hair had grown back. I started treating them again 2 weeks ago when I brought the 2 new guys home. I am treating all 4 just in case the 2 new guys brought any with them. There was a possibility. I don't plan on treating again unless they start showing symptoms.

[kathrynj]

I think the problem may be (in my opinion) people treating INEFFECTIVELY with ivomectin. I mean like the one drop dose or the matchstick size dose ideas. In my opinion this has limited effectiveness so a true mite infestation continues, and ineffective doses continue, what a viscous circle.

I strongly believe in weight adjusted doses being the ONLY way to effectively treat.

The conundrum here is that waiting for increased symptoms makes mites so much harder to treat. If you catch them earlier it is much easier and a shorter course of ivomec, usually 3 doses 7-10 days apart. More severe cases need a much longer course of treatment.

[PiggieMamaKelly]

I don't really understand why people treat preventatively for mites. I could understand prevention if the risk was huge. But it itsn't like if you treat with ivermectin NOW you can prevent the need for open heart surgery in the FUTURE. The preventative medication is the same as the treatment! Of course a severe infestation is tougher to kick, but assuming the pig is treated in the beginning stages when you noticed the symptoms, it's really not that big of a deal.

I hear of many people treating a new guinea pig right away as a prevention before it joins the group. But wouldn't you notice if the pig had mites during the 3 week quarantine? You could then easily begin treatment.

I guess I just don't see the point in using medicine when there is no reason to believe you need it (for people as well as pigs). To say that there is no evidence to suggest there is any resistence built in cavies is not saying much. I doubt there have been any serious studies done on the issue to say one way or the other.

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by PiggieMamaKelly

I hear of many people treating a new guinea pig right away as a prevention before it joins the group. But wouldn't you notice if the pig had mites during the 3 week quarantine? You could then easily begin treatment.

It depends on where the piggy comes from. If I was to get it from my local rescue I would know the piggy had been treated for mites and hence wouldn't do it myself. If it came from our local SSPCA then without a doubt I WOULD treat it for mites because I know they don't unless the pig has an obvious skin condition. The same would go for any other rescue I took on (I've yet to meet one that's not had mites or fungal or both).

No, you don't always notice with a new pig right away if it has mites and sometimes they're so unsettled they don't exhibit symptoms. I've seen this happen and people stick them in the cage after their quarantine and all of a sudden they're all scratching. I think it's very important to treat new pigs because often the stress of a move will exacerbate a minor case of mites that have been up until now causing no problem.

Routine treatment with ivermectin (such as once every month or whatever people do) is what I wouldn't do.

Katt has made a very valid point - there are so many people over here in the UK using a pet store version of ivermectin which is weak (and I've used the correct dose of it rather than the packet dose - it's so weak the pig gets in a right mess from all the liquid) or, as she says, a bit of horse paste unmeasured.

[Jennicat]

What daftscotslass said.

I treat preventatively once a year because my pigs have a history of being infested with mites and not showing physical symptoms besides sensitivity and I foster animals. Though we treat every new pig that comes into the rescue, and they're quarantined, and they don't make contact with my pigs, it's worth it to me just to be safe.

That being said, I also alternate between ivermectin and revolution.

Originally Posted by PiggieMamaKelly

I hear of many people treating a new guinea pig right away as a prevention before it joins the group. But wouldn't you notice if the pig had mites during the 3 week quarantine? You could then easily begin treatment.

Pigs can break out with mites even after quarantine. Stress can bring out mites even when they're not exposed to them. Not to mention that since mites are not visible to the naked eye, unless they're actually scratching, there's no way to tell if they have mites or not. Part of being a prey animal is looking as healthy as possible.

[muffin]

I have personally abondoned the UK mite liquid stuff. It's called anti-parasite spot-on, made by Beaphar, and yes, I agree, it's useless and dangerous.

There is also a question to be considered of whether topical applications are that effective. The whole dose has to get into the bloodstream, and I'm not so sure that happens. I personally think giving ivomec by mouth is the most effective method.

The Cambridge Cavy Trust advises worming your pig three times a year, last time I checked. I'm still unsure of where I stand on this. Yes, they could have internal parasites from being out on grass that I wouldn't necessarily notice, but there's the argument of parasite resistance developing.

I'm tempted to side with only treating for internal parasites if there are problems, but I don't know enough about internal parasites to stop sitting on the fence on that one I'm afraid.

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by muffin

There is also a question to be considered of whether topical applications are that effective. The whole dose has to get into the bloodstream, and I'm not so sure that happens. I personally think giving ivomec by mouth is the most effective method.

It may also depend on the ivermectin. I favor the 'pour-on' type that is designed to be given topically.

[hydrohoki]

I think it's a complicated issue and these responses have been very insightful. I do believe more drug-resistant issues will be seen in upcoming years. However, a simple awareness of the issue can't hurt anything.

It's nice to know other people think about these things too.

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by Jennicat

It may also depend on the ivermectin. I favor the 'pour-on' type that is designed to be given topically.

Same here or injectible applied topically. Topical ivermectin is quickly absorbed into the bloodstream if applied correctly (i.e. in a place where it won't run off and won't just evaporate from the fur) and can combat several types of lice as well as mites. Because lice don't feed from the bloodstream, oral ivermectin is ineffective.

As for the CCT I won't make much of a comment on them other than to say the founder has a load of letters after her name that represent "qualifications" she invented. While I don't doubt they do a lot to educate vets, I don't always trust their judgement.

[DaCourt]

Originally Posted by mommyoffive

I have treatment my guinea pigs one (three doses) time with ivermectin and thats all for me. I dont plan on adopting anymore until my last one has passed away and that should years from now. I dont believe in routine treatment of ivermectin because it shouldnt be needed if your guinea pigs have not come into contant with outside guinea pigs, and mine havnt.

I am confused. Do you think your pigs will not get mites just because they are not exposed to other pigs? If that is what you think, the you are wrong. Per the medical guide on GuineaLynx, it says "In a healthy animal, the mite may be dormant for months or years, becoming a problem in a pregnant cavy or one subject to illness or stress." We never know what can stress on a pig. I had to treat one of my adults when he was 3 1/2, and had not been exposed to a new pig. The only change was that his normally dominant cage mate decided he was not going to be dominant any more. So, the pecking order was all out of whack. This obviously stressed him out.

[Alusdra]

There probably is a test that can be done to check for mites (maybe a skin scraping?) that would definitively tell you if the pig was infested or not. It would be a good idea to do that sort of test on a first vet visit, anyway. Then you don't have to be treating unnecessarily for mites that aren't there. If a pig never is in contact with other animals, I don't really see why they would need routine preventative treatment, though perhaps they would if you take them outside frequently or foster, etc.

Whatever the best protocol for treatment of pig parasites ends up being, the vet should definitely be the one who makes the decision. It is dangerous for people without any medical background to be treating their animals based on what an anonymous or unqualified person on the internet (or even book) tells them.

[daftscotslass]

Originally Posted by Alusdra

There probably is a test that can be done to check for mites (maybe a skin scraping?) that would definitively tell you if the pig was infested or not. It would be a good idea to do that sort of test on a first vet visit, anyway. Then you don't have to be treating unnecessarily for mites that aren't there. If a pig never is in contact with other animals, I don't really see why they would need routine preventative treatment, though perhaps they would if you take them outside frequently or foster, etc.

Skin scrapings are painful and unnecessary. Since mites live just under the surface of the skin the procedure has to scrape through more than just the outer layer of skin and often throws up false negatives. Often you have to wait days for the results if the vets do not have the facility to examine samples on the premises.

So no, it's not a good idea to do that test and a lot of vets will treat with ivermectin and NOT do a skin scraping which is absolutely the right thing to do, in my opinion, when a pig seems as though it has mites.

[Char-x]

All my pigs have had one lot of Ivermectin each when we got a new girl who had them, they havent had it since but I'm thinking of getting Tallulah done again as she has got dandruff like skin lately and mange mites might be affecting her if shes stressed over having injections twice daily. I agree with