Would you buy from a breeder if there were no rescues?

**kathrynj** · #1 12-08-07, 11:54 pm

I am politely leaving Wickedrodents thread there, and starting a new one here, in response to her request not to clog her rat thread with breeder debate. http://www.guineapigcages.com/forum/...tml#post339064

I am looking for your opinions. Is it ok to purchase an animal from a breeder if there is none in rescues?

Would you go ahead and buy?

Or wait and be of the opinion, that it is just a matter of time and there will be unwanted rats, particularly as their breeding is being encouraged?

In what way is this different to say, being anti guinea pig breeding?

Or is the fact that there is no overpopulation problem YET, make a difference to your views?

**Ly&Pigs** · #2 12-09-07, 12:04 am

My view would be- why start creating an overpopulation problem in a country where none exists now. If there aren't many pet rats in Singapore then it would need to stay that way. Otherwise there will be a huge overpopulation problem in a short time because rats produce much faster than guinea pigs and have very large litters the majority of the time.

Honestly, I don't think that anyone should buy rats from a breeder. Personally, I'd wait for the unwanted rats to become available.

**MCR_Rox** · #3 12-09-07, 12:04 am

Maybe if there were none in shelters the whole entire world. Of course, when people buy them, there will be some in shelters later on, and the future over-population will be supported by my purchase. Plus, it isn't so much animal rights to purchase an animal as a pet. I'd have do decide then.

**kathrynj** · #4 12-09-07, 12:14 am

Rabbits are actually illegal in my state of Queensland. Though other states have an abundance of them. I would dearly love to have a bunny, but I would stop short of buying from a breeder. I think if I desperately desperately wanted one, I would put my name down at a shelter, or pay to have a rescue bunny from interstate shipped up to me.

Buying from a breeder wouldn't even be my last resort, I simply would not entertain the idea of purchasing and encouraging breeding. It is an overpopulation waiting to happen. Particularly as you pointed out Ly, rats breed prolifically and have large litters, I believe rabbits are similar in this way. How long till the novelty wears off and rats are surrendered in droves?

**naturestee** · #5 12-09-07, 09:49 am

This may not be the same in all areas, but rats seem to come and go in packs at my local shelter. They won't have any for months, then all of a sudden there are singles and pairs being surrendered every day. Then you get the accidental litters, or like happened one time, what started as an accidental litter but they were never separated by gender... 50 rats later they dump them all at the shelter. A large number of those were euthanized because even the other rescues and shelters that would have helped with them didn't want to deal with their severe URIs and mange.

I would just wait for rats to be available at a shelter or rescue. Or get some transported from a rescue that's farther away.

**Alusdra** · #6 12-09-07, 09:51 am

Well if there are no animals in shelters of any species anywhere, then it's a definite yes I would buy from breeders. At that point the problem is not overpopulation, it is maintaining breeds/species in captivity. Which I, being animal welfare and not animal rights, am all for. I actually would love to buy an animal from a breeder that cares for the animals like family (I would have a better guarantee on temperament and health)... but I can't justify it morally with all the animals in shelters. (Possible exception being geckos as they are rarely to never in shelters, and when they are get snatched up almost immediately- but I'm working through my thoughts on them, in particular).

It's also tough when one considers legalities. So if there are guinea pigs, for example, in Mexico, but I can't get them across the border, and all breeders in the US are ethical and there are no pigs in shelters (in some happy alternate reality) would I buy a pig from a breeder? I'm not sure.

And then there are similar pets. So, for example, if there were no guinea pigs anywhere that weren't purpose bred by ethical breeders but rabbits were severely overpopulated, since they have close needs space, time and care-wise, should I buy a guinea pig from a breeder and leave a rabbit to die? I wouldn't. I have spaces that open for a certain kind of animal when I look to adopt, and I'm not particularly set on any one species. If, however, there were no rabbits, no guinea pigs, no chinchillas or gerbils, or even hamsters in rescues... maybe no small mammal whatsoever but there were maybe a huge overpopulation of snakes, or iguanas... or even mini-ponies or something. Would I feel obligated to not buy an animal from a breeder when I am unable to care for that mini-pony or 20' python? That gets a bit stickier.

Of course, it's all hypothetical. I doubt (sadly) that overpopulation will ever end, especially as others have said that one pair of animals can produce so many in such a short time. They're evolved to do so. You can even calculate how many elephants it takes to cover the earth or reach to the moon and it only takes a very short time. (Something like 20-50 years, but I don't feel like doing the calculations). But you never know. Perhaps breeders will care so much for their breed that they will take in all animals of that breed or species and spay/neuter and rehome. I know this does happen now, but people get overwhelmed and depressed at sheer numbers and either close their eyes, plug their ears and go "lalalala" or go full-time into rescue.

So basically... no one is perfect, the world certainly isn't- thus it's probably adoption for me for the rest of me life. 仕方がない。(which means "it can't be helped" and is pronounced "shikataganai")

**Jenni_Feathers** · #7 12-09-07, 09:54 am

What ever I did I would never buy any animal, as for going to a breeder, the only animal I would go to a breeder for would be a dog, but not just any breeder or a BYB I would only go to a responsible breeder who breeds to improve the breed , only breeding 1 or 2 litters at a time and checks out your home, needs vet recomendations etc. The shelters in my area are always over flowing with kittens because there are so many people with outdoor or barn cats who let them breed uncontrolably and then just takes the kittens to the humane society when there free to good home sign doesnt work out. There arent that many small animals in shelters around me and there are only 2 rescues, Missouri Rabbit House and F.U.R.R.Y Ferret Rescues, no Guinea Pig, Hamster, Chin, Gerbil, Rat etc. For the Guinea Pigs, right now there are 4 Guiea Pigs in all of Missouri for adoption (well on petfinder) and that is about avg. the most I've ever seen was 9. I would be willing to drive a few hours to another state to get a reascue pig (or any animal) though, even the places in MO that they have them is still about 1 1/2 hrs from me.

**wickedrodent** · #8 12-09-07, 12:18 pm

Thanks Katt.

My view is very complicated on this because rats do have a lot of health problems. As it stands, I don't see a problem with breeding out bad genetic traits such as illness' in rats. However, as there are rats in shelters needing homes, breeding should be practiced very seldomly and by those select few who DO intend to only breed for that sole purpose.

No matter what, rescue animals always come first; this is why I went to a rescue and not a breeder for my boys. I did wait a long time to adopt rats because there are not many for adoption.

Even when there are rats for adoption, they are usually over 1 year.. which is elderly for a rat. That doesn't make them any less worth it, but bonding to a 1 year old rat would be very difficult and would give you a very short time with the animal. For my first rats I wanted to wait until babies for adoption so I could spend as much time as possible with them. In the future I will most likely adopt older rats as well because they DO need good homes. Its really sad that they only live 2-3 years (2 being average, from what I have seen).

**kathrynj** · #9 12-09-07, 01:18 pm

Yeah, again, I am different in this view, I adopted my cat from the RSPCA and she was approx 8 years old. I didn't actually see a picture of her, just her name and age on the website, and knew she was ours.

For me, to adopt an elderly animal is always my preference, not that I don't like little babies, on the contrary, I adore them, however there are so many people who won't take on older animals, for the reasons you give above.

I feel for these older and surrendered animals, they didn't choose to be homeless, and in my mind, deserve to have a forever home to live out whatever time they have left.

I admit I don't know about rats, but most other animals will become calm with lots of time and patience, you don't have to have it from a baby. It is a fallacy that you have to have one from a young age to 'tame' it, I find the older animals are more mellow and appreciate your love so much more than a carefree but awfully cute baby.

I really would prefer if this didn't become a 'if there were no animals in ANY shelters' thread, as that is so never going to happen ever.

**wickedrodent** · #10 12-09-07, 01:55 pm

Quote:

I admit I don't know about rats, but most other animals will become calm with lots of time and patience, you don't have to have it from a baby. It is a fallacy that you have to have one from a young age to 'tame' it, I find the older animals are more mellow and appreciate your love so much more than a carefree but awfully cute baby.

I do believe with rats, like hamsters, if they have been mistreated and not handled in the past they would be very hard, if not impossible, to tame, especially in later life. Since rats are so intelligent it would be hard to earn ones trust after a life of never being held and possibly even being abused. Of course not all elderly rats in shelters are like this of couse, but its a possibility. Kinda like an elderly dog that had been abused all its life, in that regard dogs and rats would be very similar.

To answer the question (which I forgot to do before) I would not buy dogs, cats, or guinea pigs from a breeder if there were no rescues. It is possible that I would buy rats but ONLY if the breeder was breeding for the sole purpose of breeding out illness' in their lines.

**kathrynj** · #11 12-09-07, 02:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedrodent

I do believe with rats, like hamsters, if they have been mistreated and not handled in the past they would be very hard, if not impossible, to tame, especially in later life. Since rats are so intelligent it would be hard to earn ones trust after a life of never being held and possibly even being abused.

Wouldn't it be amazingly rewarding, if this could happen?

**Alusdra** · #12 12-09-07, 02:37 pm

I do like older animal, too. Babies of all species are a pain. Like beagles, for example. I really dislike most/all beagles under ~7 years old. Once they hit that age, though, they are total sweethearts. Similarly with labs. Really most dogs...

It depends on the animal as to how much being abused/neglected will affect them if you adopt. Some completely ignored animals will become instant cuddle-bugs the second you pay any attention to them at all. (Very sad instance of that where a husky/border collie/maybe mix came into the shelter with a nearly embedded collar and feces soaked matts all over her... took off the collar, brushed out the matts and she was a gorgeous (very thin) dog lying all over me and smiling. Sadly, she died a few days later from her long long life on the end of a chain in someone's backyard- poor thing had a seizure and died before anything could be done, likely not her first one

She deserved much better)

Some animals will never enjoy it, of course, but from my experience there are a lot more animals that will come to enjoy human companionship than not, especially among domesticated species. Maybe not with... I don't know... a tarantula or something. (Are they ever affectionate?)

**wickedrodent** · #13 12-09-07, 02:47 pm

Quote:

Wouldn't it be amazingly rewarding, if this could happen?

Yes, I am sure it would be. I would love to adopt older rats in the future, but I didn't want them as my first since I really need to get a feel for regular rats in general first. After that I have absolutely no problem with helping an older rat.. In fact, Id love to! The problem with that though is by the time the rat ever got tame he or she might already be very very very elderly.

I really hope someone DOES end up breeding out some of the illness' (mainly tumors) in rats.. Then again, I doubt their lifespan would ever increase dramtically..

**kathrynj** · #14 12-09-07, 02:52 pm

I dont see that a problem Wicked, if the elderly animal had a forever home for the last season of their life, that in itself would be a rewarding thing for me. I don't think in terms of length of life, but quality of life

**wickedrodent** · #15 12-09-07, 03:03 pm

Thats not the problem I see. If I adopted an older rat that had been abused it would be more pain for the animal being socialized. If I didn't succeed in soclialzing by the time he or she had passed it wouldn't have been worth it for the animal. In the early stages of socialization I think the animal would probably feel as if he/she was being tortured.. escpecially if they had no human contact at all. If their lifespans were longer I could socialize and the animal could benifit from it with years of having a better life.

**kathrynj** · #16 12-09-07, 03:13 pm

I guess I dont' see gaining trust to ba a painful ot tortuous experience for an animal. Maybe it is, I would still rather give the older animal a chance, than go for the babies. It may not be a bad experience, and even if it was failing, at least having a permanent place to sleep adequate food and water, at least that animal deserves a chance.

My cat was unusual to be at the rspca, and usually older cats are euthanised, I think the fact that she was a female ginger cat, apparently not usually found, let her get through. She has been a lot of work, has major issues stemming from being abandoned, but I would do it ten twenty fifty times over. The thought of her not having a chance at life, do

Thank you Ly&Pigs, for this useful post, say these 7 members:
HowietheGreat (12-09-07), kathrynj (12-09-07), landhermie (12-09-07), Love4Piggers (01-21-08), naturestee (12-09-07), piggly wiggly (12-09-07), pigsforlife (12-09-07)

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