Change, an update

[Slap Maxwell]

I've posted this in the Kitchen as I am sure it will be moved there anyway.

The mods probably remember me, it has been a while. I made some great friends on this forum, some of which I haven't talked to in a long time. Those that know me in person from this forum probably haven't seen me in ages, however thought I would give an update.

This forum was not only an excellent outlet for finding out information when I bought my first pigs from a pet store (Amelia, now passed, Nova is still with me) but it was great to be part of something that had founded views that didn't budge. I took on those views and pretty much ran with them for several years.

I ended up in a bad home life situation a year or so ago and had to return three pigs I had adopted from a rescue back. I felt terrible but at that point the pigs would have gone through more stress staying with me then finding a new home. I was able to keep my two original girls, and a member on GL fostered them for me until I got things a little more stable.

At that point I took a break from the forum. I started doing more traveling and seeing things that had only been talked about on this forum. Breeders.

I visited several breeders in my tri-state area, and in all honesty- I was very impressed. The monsters that these people are made out to be isn't always the truth. Just because they had been breeding did not mean they were careless about potentially putting their sows at risk, they were diligent to make sure the sow was of adequate size and ideal type (potentially had done well on the show table, that comes later) before even considering finding a mate who would compliment any flaws she had.

No, they weren't all in the minimum "required" sized C&C cage. They were however (at two different places) in specially ordered and home-made galvanized cages that were quite roomy and kept impeccably clean with not only toys, but lots of hay and houses.

They knew more than I could imagine about genetics, health issues, more than I had learned online, simply because it was hands on and I could physically see what I was being told.

The showing world- also something you have to really experience before you can bash it. The shows that are sanctioned and attended by some of the top breeders are something to really watch. Yes, pigs are tagged. I've tagged and watched tagging of animals. Cows, goats, pigs, horses tattooed and freeze branded, for guinea pigs it is nothing more than getting your ear pierced, except without the butterflies before, because you know what is going to happen. It doesn't hurt them, they don't bleed.

The shows that are run by fairs and 4-H, those are disgusting. Everything that has been said on here is close to true. It is generally dirty, loud, stressful for people and animals, and just a numbing experience.

What is connected to those shows is the back yard breeders and the child breeders. I've been in the back yard of a back yard breeder more than a handful of times the last year and a half. It is horrid, pigs are sometimes kept outside or in a cold barn, they are grouped with no care of the pigs well being or the quality and health of the babies, it is all about quantity with cool colors and mixed breed funky hair/cool markings. THAT is sickening. That is something I stand against and would love to see stop. A 10 or 12 year old child breeder doesn't have the mental capacity to "asses" their animals past anything but markings and temperament. I saw a few of these and wonder what the parents are thinking.

What comes next? Am I breeding? NO! I still have Nova and a boar I took in from person who dumped him, living in a split 2x5. And I may get bashed because my cage is a 1/2 grid short of 2x3, but my pigs are older, comfortable, and enjoy being the center of attention in the living room. I will never breed guinea pigs. I've worked with Cindy at the Critter Connection, and I know this area is completely overloaded. Fact is that guinea pigs are overpopulated almost anywhere you go. I took the time to see what I was bashing, and I think that a lot of my time was spent unnecessarily doing so.

Are all breeders horrid people who don't care about the species? Absolutely not, but they are not all good people either, the bad does still exist.

If I am going around to breeders in the real world vs. online- and telling them they are creating more homeless guinea pigs, they are going to lose the females they love from breeding them, they are the problem- I am going to get shut out. I can't get my point across. Who would want to know a person like that!? I am not letting someone in my house who sees only their side of things and won't even attempt to hear my POV.

I've taken in a few rescue cases and spent months with the pigs before they found a home. LonePig adopted one of them that was found living outside in a stone wall with his mother and sisters (who were adopted by an awesome family in RI)

I don't think the blame needs to be put down on breeders as it is here. They are creating more animals, we know that. But the "good" breeders have a purpose with every litter. I think that the reality of the amount of people who buy pigs from a store and then a week, a month, a year or two down the road throw it into a rescue are realistically what is hurting the overpopulation. The people who don't think about the next 7 years as with this animal, and bring it to a shelter- or a rescue.

I've lurked for a while on the forum, I've not liked what I have read. I see too many people that could be welcomed as part of a community be driven away after a few posts, that they are "demoted" to Cavy Cager, as I am sure I will be here since I am not 100% anti what this forum stands for anymore. I will continue supporting solely the rescue side of this "war", but not in the manor of thinking that I once had.

I hope everyone I have spoken with over the last few years is doing well and their pigs are healthy and happy.

[ctinaw]

Wow, so let me get this straight. You came to this forum (with which you are very familiar with its values) to tell them that 1- you had to give some of your pigs away to a rescue and 2- there are some good breeders out there who care about the well being of pigs.

I'm not sure what kind of response you're expecting. So I guess I'll leave it at that. You already know what will be said.

[Susan9608]

But the "good" breeders have a purpose with every litter.

What purpose is it that you claim these "good" breeder have with every litter they create? Is it to create a more perfect guinea pig? That sure is a noble purpose, considering how many "imperfect" guinea pigs live in shelters or are euthanized for lack of a good home.

I think that the reality of the amount of people who buy pigs from a store and then a week, a month, a year or two down the road throw it into a rescue are realistically what is hurting the overpopulation.

So these "good" breeders contribute nothing to this problem? They don't sell or "adopt" their non-perfect, non-show standard animals out to people who otherwise could have adopted a guinea pig already in existence from a shelter? These "good" breeders don't purposely breed their animals, knowing that there are already hundreds of perfectly fine, healthy guinea pigs in shelters?

They were however (at two different places) in specially ordered and home-made galvanized cages that were quite roomy and kept impeccably clean with not only toys, but lots of hay and houses.

Gosh, it sounds like these breeders aren't just good - they sound almost saint-like! *gag* So what? They take good care of their animals; that should be the very least, the very most *expected* course of action. It doesn't make the fact that they are breeding their animals any better simply because they provide adequate care.

Yes, pigs are tagged. I've tagged and watched tagging of animals. Cows, goats, pigs, horses tattooed and freeze branded, for guinea pigs it is nothing more than getting your ear pierced, except without the butterflies before, because you know what is going to happen. It doesn't hurt them, they don't bleed.

So you've some how magically become a guinea pig and had your ears tagged and know how it feels? I've had my ears pierced; it hurt like hell. Not just when the actually piercing happened, but for days afterwards. Who's to say that it's any different for the guinea pig? Can you *know* for a fact that it doesn't hurt? And even if it doesn't hurt (which I highly doubt) so what? Does that make it okay to be destructive towards an animal for selfish human purposes? Because tagging serves no purpose except in the show circuit. And even if these shows are so wonderful, so flawless as you claim, what's the point? It's certainly not to the animals' benefit; it's all about people.

Are all breeders horrid people who don't care about the species?

Even the best people in the world sometimes do the wrong thing, which is exactly what I think your "good" breeders are doing - the wrong thing. It's just wrong, wrong, wrong to create more and more animals when there are already too many animals to being with. There's no way to justify it - not by saying that the animals are getting good care, not by saying that the shows aren't so bad, not anything. You can rationalize it all you want, but deliberately creating more animals - and thus condemning the ones already in existence - is WRONG.

I've not liked what I have read.

Boy you're not the only one. I'm disgusted by what I'm reading here, especially since it comes from you, someone who was so ardent and pro-active. It makes me very sad to see this turn you've taken and the path you're going down ... very sad for you and for all the animals whom you've helped and were helping with your firm stance. Who are you helping now? Just your breeder friends, and the animals be dammed. Sure you say you're still going to preach and support rescue, but it rings awfully hypocritical with someone who openly admits that perhaps breeding isn't so awful after all.

What was your motivation in posting this here of all places? To create drama? For the shock value? For attention? I sure hope you get what you came for.

ETA:

I see too many people that could be welcomed as part of a community be driven away after a few posts,

Can't resist the irony here ... as YOU used to be so in-your-face and confrontational about animal rights that YOU used to help drive people away from here. And now you're complaining about it. Wonders never cease ...

[Jennicat]

Wait. So you claim they're there to "better" the animals. Breeding animals that will do well at a "show". A show to prove how pretty they are? To prove that they're nice and shiny, even when their bones are decaying inside their living bodies? To prove how nice their whorls are, even though they're producing bladder stones, tumors, cataracts, you name it?

This is a hugely ironic statement, since a huge portion of the genetic problems that guinea pigs are prone to tend to show up after 1 year of age... after these poor animals have already born litters, and their babies are already out in the world, producing more genetically unsound animals.

So your "for the breed" argument (even if I agreed with it) is nil.

But it is nice that some breeders that you've met have almost succeeded in giving their pigs a halfway decent life by providing them with cages that are bigger, but still not big enough.

[daftscotslass]

Do you know what? I'm speechless. To think that you went from this...

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Showing pigs is just plain CRUEL. They are in small pens for sometimes days at a time. If you LOVE your pigs, you won't subject them to that.

...to what you wrote above has stunned me.

[thalestral]

I'm not understanding what this "purpose" is either - to create healthier guinea pigs which is impossible given problems manifest after breeding age? Or just to create guinea pigs that have their colours and rosettes in the "right" places? Is this breeding done for the benefit of the guinea pigs or the benefit of the breeders?

What possible purpose can there be that justifies bringing more into an overpopulated world?

[JennG]

Watch out Slap, they're gonna slap ya.

[CavySpirit]

Well, I see you've fallen into the same trap as most young people once you get exposed to that world. Oh well.

But, I'll tell you, here's what really pisses me off, quite frankly. You, of all people, thinking and saying that just because you have a different opinion from us, that warrants a demotion to 'cavy people' or 'cavy caged!' Now you're sounding like one of the immature kids from another forum. And maybe it's been so long since you've been here and you are so ready to tell us how the breeder world is oh so wonderful and we are just too darn militant in our views that maybe you've either forgotten or made another negative assumption that 'cavy cager' is a bad thing. EVERYONE who starts out on this forum is a cavy cager until they've been here for 30 days and made 10 posts. Remember?

I'm not sure why you are back here and clearly wanting to stir up you know what. You know your views belong over on the 'you know what does stink' forum as they are so proud of excrement as a theme. That's where your new found enlightenment is most welcome. That is where everyone will congratulate you for seeing the light. Why aren't you over there? I'm curious.

[Slap Maxwell]

This is the exact response I was expecting to get. Snarky, extremist, irrational comments.

ctinaw- Yes, I had to give 3 pigs back to a rescue that I adopted. I ended up homeless and pigs don't do well on the street. My other two (my pet store pigs) were fostered by a person on GL until I had my feet back on the ground. I wouldn't have adopted out my own pigs, I knew the rescues would be under the care of the rescue who I adopted them from and I followed the contract I signed.

I debated starting this thread for a long time, because I've back off from the extremest view. I don't support breeders, I wouldn't buy from a breeder, but I have realized that they are not some evil person.

I guess this can be debated in many things in this world. Whether I think breeders are heartless people or not doesn't have anything to do with who I am and if I have breeder "friends"

To create drama Susan? I figured I shouldn't have said anything as this thread will disappear into thin air pretty soon I am sure.

My point was to encourage people to go out and see these things for real. The good, bad and ugly. I've seen a lot- and I've made up my own mind instead of being told what to believe.

Teresa, I'm not on the "other" forum because I don't support what they do. I don't see what I think is a responsible or good breeder anywhere in sight.

It is black and white, either you are pro or con breeders/breeding here- I can't be leaning against the fence at all. I still support rescues, not breeders.

[Susan9608]

Watch out Slap, they're gonna slap ya.

If only it were possible to "slap" sense into someone. Like Daft, I don't understand how someone goes from really caring about animals and their welfare to the kind of lackadaisical attitude our original poster displayed for us here. It's truly astonishing and very, very disheartening.

[Slap Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

If only it were possible to "slap" sense into someone. Like Daft, I don't understand how someone goes from really caring about animals and their welfare to the kind of lackadaisical attitude our original poster displayed for us here. It's truly astonishing and very, very disheartening.

Yes apparently because I don't think breeders are so so so cruel anymore I don't care for my animals welfare. This is what is astonishing to me.

If you are not with us, you are clearly against us.

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

My point was to encourage people to go out and see these things for real. The good, bad and ugly. I've seen a lot- and I've made up my own mind instead of being told what to believe.

I think that it's pretty arrogant of you to assume that just because we believe strongly in a way that you don't agree with that we haven't "made up our own minds".

I've dealt with a lot of breeders. I'm with a rescue. 2 of my pigs were from a breeder's dump. One has osteodystrophy, the other is allergic to suture materials (like 80% of the other males in that group) and has already had a tumor removed. Both were 1.5-2 when their problems manifested.

I know I'm being irrational and all, but did any of your breeder friends participate in the free bladder stone studies done by Oxbow? The osteodystrophy studies? Any of the numerous health studies going on right now? I'm sure as fine, upstanding animal lovers, who are doing it to "better the breed", they're obviously participating in these programs so that they're not breeding unhealthy animals.

Or are they relying on the clairvoyant x-ray vision of the ARBA judge to make sure they're not breeding stone pigs? Or OD pigs?

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Yes apparently because I don't think breeders are so so so cruel anymore I don't care for my animals welfare. This is what is astonishing to me.

If you are not with us, you are clearly against us.

I really hope that the irony of you saying this, and using the drama smiley isn't lost on you. After all, we're not with you, so we're clearly against you and your friends.

[Slap Maxwell]

Let me clear this up, they aren't my friends. I don't 'hang out' with them and I don't speak regularly to them in the least. I was curious what their setup looked like and they invited me to come see.

I am holding back a lot of what I have to say as I know attacking the way the forum runs in excess will without a doubt get me banned. I don't think what this forum stands for is "wrong" in the least.

I read the thread about the girl in high school who wanted to get physical with another girl because her mom bred guinea pigs. That is kind of what wanted to make me write this.

I didn't suddenly turn my opinion around totally by meeting some breeders. Hey, I hung around Christians and ended up an Atheist. I am not going to be charmed by them and then suddenly hang onto everything they say- I wanted to see the conditions, see how much of their life they put into studying their medical issues, genetics, etc.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

This is the exact response I was expecting to get. Snarky, extremist, irrational comments.

I debated starting this thread for a long time, because I've back off from the extremest view. I don't support breeders, I wouldn't buy from a breeder, but I have realized that they are not some evil person.

I guess this can be debated in many things in this world. Whether I think breeders are heartless people or not doesn't have anything to do with who I am and if I have breeder "friends"

To create drama Susan? I figured I shouldn't have said anything as this thread will disappear into thin air pretty soon I am sure.

What is with you? You claim some noble purpose in starting this thread, but you knew darn well what you were doing. I have more to say, but am late for a meeting. I'll be back in a few hours.

[Jennicat]

I'm going to assume that your complete dodging of any of my questions into the issue of breeding for health means that they're not.

To my understanding this means that:

"They knew more than I could imagine about genetics, health issues, more than I had learned online,"

means one of two things.

1.) that they don't, if they think they're breeding them out
2.) that they know about these problems, but don't care and breed anyway.

Both are truly sad thoughts.

[JennG]

Unfortunately, I have a life and have to get to work myself. Slap, you are entitled to your own opinion and the only reason why I haven't said my two cents is for fear of getting banned/demoted. I guess we'll see what happens while I'm away. Good luck Slap and congrats for holding your own. I'll be surprised to see if this one is still up as well when I get home.

[Percy's Mom]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

This is the exact response I was expecting to get. Snarky, extremist, irrational comments.

What was snarky, extremist, and irrational? The response you got was quite a few people being shocked.

but I have realized that they are not some evil person.

They're not evil. I'm sure quite a few breeders are lovely people. What they do is irresponsible, unnecessary, and completely wrong.

To create drama Susan? I figured I shouldn't have said anything as this thread will disappear into thin air pretty soon I am sure.

Why else would you post what you did here? Of course you wanted to create drama. You even knew enough to go ahead and post it in the Kitchen.

I still support rescues, not breeders.

But hey, if the breeders want to make cute little pigs to show them off, punch holes in their ears, and house them with almost enough space, go right ahead. You just won't buy their pigs. How noble.

I am holding back a lot of what I have to say as I know attacking the way the forum runs in excess will without a doubt get me banned. I don't think what this forum stands for is "wrong" in the least.

Oh please. You know full well that people don't get banned for arguing or stating a point of view. If you don't like the way the forum is being run, why are you here? No one told you that you had to come back and stir up trouble.

Originally Posted by JennG

the only reason why I haven't said my two cents is for fear of getting banned/demoted. I guess we'll see what happens while I'm away. Good luck Slap and congrats for holding your own. I'll be surprised to see if this one is still up as well when I get home.

I guess you have no idea how things work around here either Jenn. Banned or demoted for having a different point of view or opinion. Doesn't happen. Please show me someone this happened to, and I'll find you several other reasons why it happened. I personally have no problem with you or Slap or anyone else wanting to have their own opinion regarding breeding, showing, or anything else, but why start threads purposely to heat people up and start arguments on a forum that very obviously has the opposite philosophy. It just doesn't make sense. As far as the thread still being here, except for spam, things extremely offensive or against the rules, or a member requesting that a thread being removed, they aren't taken down. This doesn't fall into any of those categories.

[Slap Maxwell]

Ok, to try and tip the health topic.

They don't breed every female that is birthed. One breeder in particular had a line of TSW Americans that had been in progress for about 12 years. You cannot show animals who are obviously sick. Their bone structure is felt, they need to be in good weight, have good teeth, good feet, a shiny, healthy coat, and some of the breeds are classed upon their liveliness.

As far as knowing about the genetic issues that happen to guinea pigs, of course they do. That is WHY they breed. To weed out these into an pig that is going to live long and healthy. The breeder with the TSW line showed me her seniors from her first 5 years working with them, they look wonderful. (No not 12 year old pigs, but 10 and 8 year olds, yes.)

Not all breeders send out pigs to whoever has the money. Most recommend looking for rescues. A majority of their business is with other breeders to keep the gene pool big, this helps weed out any issues that may occur in a certain caviary.

Those who I met don't breed anything until it has been shown. That way they reduce the number of what is deemed as "pet quality" pigs produced. ACBA is a big organization and I have had my tiffs with them. I think they could do better, but talking with the judges was a nice experience.

Percy's Mom- the first thing that would have happened is that it would have been moved to the kitchen. If this forum wants a totally peaceful, happy place with no debate, then thats fine. All I see in the kitchen now is members looking to get approval on how much they hate this organization, this breeder, this pet store.

[Susan9608]

It is black and white, either you are pro or con breeders/breeding here-

It *is* a black and white issue. Either you think breeding is wrong or you don't. Applying conditions, as in "oh, I think it's okay if people are breeding to better the species" is just rationalization. It's just a way of justifying and making breeding socially acceptable.

While animals are suffering and dying, the issue is a black and white one. Creating more animals purposely = wrong. Standing firm and trying to prevent the intentional creation of more animals = right.

ETA:

the only reason why I haven't said my two cents is for fear of getting banned/demoted.

Wow. If people truly feel like they can't say what they think/feel because they'll be banned or demoted, then I have to say maybe this isn't the most appropriate forum for them to belong to. We don't ban people for having differing views, especially not if those views are expressed in a tactful, non-spiteful way.

All I see in the kitchen now is members looking to get approval on how much they hate this organization, this breeder, this pet store.

You need to look a little harder, then.

[Slap Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

While animals are suffering and dying, the issue is a black and white one. Creating more animals purposely = wrong. Standing firm and trying to prevent the intentional creation of more animals = right.

This is one thing that bothers me. What you stated is an opinion, however it has been morphed into reality here. There are many things in this world I would love to see everybody shift their opinions on.

There will always be breeders, of every species. I think it should be controlled. The USDA is crap for licensing and inspecting. In my first post I said that I saw the ugly part of it too. It was horrible.

Too me it is like grouping rescuers with some hoarders. They want to save or rescue the animals. But they are TOTALLY different. Back yard breeders are horrible for any type of animals. There are people who do breed that make a difference in the species, believe it or not.

There are breeders (I haven't met any pig, but rabbit) who are anti-rescue. That is the total other side of the fence. I don't go there- that isn't even a funny topic to me because they don't see the other side of the issue. But it reminds me of here in a way, simply because they are so stuck on what they believe, despite being so different in ethics.