Change, an update

[smartorl]

Breeders aren't seeing breeding as purposely causing a loss of life. Loss of life in breeding happens in all animals, including humans, granted guinea pigs have a higher incidence, that is part of nature's survival plan for them. People don't decide to have a baby and focus on a miscarraige, they focus on the happy ending and deal with a problem if it arises. This is similar to a breeder in my opinion. This is where education and perhaps pointing out a different point of view would help. ALienating them does nothing to help them to see the other side. That is all that is being said. By grouping them all as wrong and not capable of being altered because they are all the same really defeats the purpose.

Not to be mean, Mommy of One but you are pointing fingers saying "wrong" when you lack the basic husbandry knowledge. In turn, someone could say that you shouldn't own pigs because you don't know enough of normal behavior to spot a problem. Not saying this is the case, just that there are many things to look at, many ways to see things.

[Jennicat]

People also have a say in whether or not they want to risk their lives to make a baby. Remember, as the "breeder friendly" crowd has beaten into the ground, animals aren't people.

[smartorl]

I have yet to see where anyone has said animals weren't people. Perhaps you can point that out?

I do not know anyone that ponders whether or not they want to die when they are contemplating children, that arguement is just stupid. People question whether they can afford it, can they still afford their lifestyle, can they be good parents, and so on, not "AM I WILLING TO DIE FOR A CHILD", give me a break, that is the stupidest thing I have seen posted here. I was making a point of what I have seen is the line of thinking, quit bastardizing everything that everyone types. Yes, people have a choice, animals don't, that is why people need to be educated not smacked over the head and told they are bad and wrong.

Calling people "breeder friendly" as an insult just reaffirms the opinion that is being denied. Supposedly, no one on the board has said that breeders are bad people and yet, you sling it as an insult, hhhmmm, actions speak louder than anything else. BREEDER is a dirty word, period, no room to open your eyes and see them as people and as possible converts, just kick them to the curb and condemn them. Real nice. That will get your cause really far.

[Jennicat]

Did you miss the pages of people being in a snit because they claimed Susan compared breeding to slavery?

Also, I wasn't insulting anyone, I was trying to come up with a term that encompassed what I felt "that side" was trying to represent. I didn't want to say "pro-breeder" and get raked over the coals for that, but looks like I ended up in the coals anyway. I guess if I'm not with you, I'm against you, and you're so inflexible, ad naseum.

I think the stupidest thing I've seen posted here is the assumption that nobody thinks about possible health risks when having a child. I can't think of anyone who doesn't, that's why there's are obstetricians.

[smartorl]

I would say a couple of pages was a little extreme in the assessment but the point with that was it was ok for Susan to use the abolitionists and slavery to make her point but Slap was being crapped on for saying that the "hellfire and brimstone, my way or the highway" mentality reminded her of a white power group. As pointed out, one mentioned to prove a point was ok (Susan's) but Slaps was considered insulting and inflammitory.

[smartorl]

I also know that you and I were on the same side of the issue with regard to guineas being fed to the reptiles in the park in Saint Augustine. It is a sad fact of life but a fact of life, the main concern is that they were treated humanely and killed humanely. You were open minded on that issue, but you stand by this all or nothing, all breeders are bad and should be cast aside and no attempt made at reformation because it will not work? I don't understand.

[Jennicat]

Ok. First of all, Susan did not compare slavery to breeding. She. Did. Not. If you think she did, go back to reading comprehension. She compared the defeatists attitudes about slavery to the defeatist attitudes about breeding. I cannot spell it out any more clearly. Can you understand that? Seriously? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't see how anybody can misinterpret the analogy.

Nobody was saying that whatever you want to call your side of the argument (I'm certainly not going to use "breeder-friendly", because geez, how insulting and all) were like slavers. Do you also understand that? They were being compared to people who felt it was hopeless to speak out against slavery because it would never end. Not to slavers. Not to people who owned slaves. Not to "bad people", but to people who felt there was no hope.

And, in that analogy, the people who proved there was no hope were proven wrong by the people who fought against slavery. Comparing that to the breeding debate at hand, the "breeder friendly" side would be the defeatists, saying that "it's always going to happen, we can't stop it", and the "anti-breeder" side hopes to be like the people who fought hard to stop the institution they disagree with.

On the other hand, the "anti-breeder" side was compared to white supremacists.

Can you not see the disparity in the two comparisons? Truly?

Originally Posted by smartorl

I also know that you and I were on the same side of the issue with regard to guineas being fed to the reptiles in the park in Saint Augustine. It is a sad fact of life but a fact of life, the main concern is that they were treated humanely and killed humanely. You were open minded on that issue, but you stand by this all or nothing, all breeders are bad and should be cast aside and no attempt made at reformation because it will not work? I don't understand.

If you want to participate in a debate with me, stop putting words into my mouth. It's insulting.

I don't think breeders are bad people. I feel they behave irresponsibly, and I spend my spare time and $$$ cleaning up their messes. I don't have respect for them. I question their claims that they're breeding "for health" when I've taken pains to try and figure out how they can possibly do that.

Reptiles don't kill guinea pigs so that they can make other cute fluffy guinea pigs with crumbly bones. Breeders do breed more cute fluffy guinea pigs, with crumbly bones, stones, etc, and cause the deaths of other guinea pigs. The issues are completely different. The reptiles HAVE to have food. The breeders are not going to starve to death if they stop breeding their fancy pigs.

[smartorl]

Originally Posted by Jennicat

I think the stupidest thing I've seen posted here is the assumption that nobody thinks about possible health risks when having a child. I can't think of anyone who doesn't, that's why there's are obstetricians.

Of course people think about it but people do not decide to have children and assume that most will die, same as I don't think breeders breed pigs thinking that most will die, they look to the positive of those who live. When issues of birth, which is associated in history as renewal are thought about, death and disaster are usually not what people think about. When you hear that a friend is having a baby do you picture her dying, no you picture an adorable baby. It is what we are conditioned to, birth in society since the beginning of humans has been revered and seen as a renewal of spirit, succession of the next generation, this attitude carries over to animals for people that have never entertained any other way of thinking. I grew up on a cattle ranch, birth was a way of life, I never knew there was any other way to be until I was taught, what is so complicated? I am not saying praise breeders or adopt a breeder, just exhibit a small amount of tolerance in order to attempt to show them there is another side, if they are not worthy then bash them over the head but don't bash innocent people that are just doing what they have seen in their lives.

[smartorl]

Originally Posted by Jennicat

Ok. First of all, Susan did not compare slavery to breeding. She. Did. Not. If you think she did, go back to reading comprehension. She compared the defeatists attitudes about slavery to the defeatist attitudes about breeding. I cannot spell it out any more clearly. Can you understand that? Seriously? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just don't see how anybody can misinterpret the analogy.

Nobody was saying that whatever you want to call your side of the argument (I'm certainly not going to use "breeder-friendly", because geez, how insulting and all) were like slavers. Do you also understand that? They were being compared to people who felt it was hopeless to speak out against slavery because it would never end. Not to slavers. Not to people who owned slaves. Not to "bad people", but to people who felt there was no hope.

And, in that analogy, the people who proved there was no hope were proven wrong by the people who fought against slavery. Comparing that to the breeding debate at hand, the "breeder friendly" side would be the defeatists, saying that "it's always going to happen, we can't stop it", and the "anti-breeder" side hopes to be like the people who fought hard to stop the institution they disagree with.

On the other hand, the "anti-breeder" side was compared to white supremacists.

Can you not see the disparity in the two comparisons? Truly?



If you want to participate in a debate with me, stop putting words into my mouth. It's insulting.

I don't think breeders are bad people. I feel they behave irresponsibly, and I spend my spare time and $$$ cleaning up their messes. I don't have respect for them. I question their claims that they're breeding "for health" when I've taken pains to try and figure out how they can possibly do that.

Reptiles don't kill guinea pigs so that they can make other cute fluffy guinea pigs with crumbly bones. Breeders do breed more cute fluffy guinea pigs, with crumbly bones, stones, etc, and cause the deaths of other guinea pigs. The issues are completely different. The reptiles HAVE to have food. The breeders are not going to starve to death if they stop breeding their fancy pigs.

I think alot of things have been said in knee jerk fashion that in hindsight, in different circumstances would not have been said.

You are very right about the crappy genetic mutants that are being created because they are considered fashionable or hip. I agree 100%. I was a breeder, I really did not know that what I was doing was bad or that there was something better and more fulfilling that I could be doing, or that I was contributing to a huge problem. Until I was tactfully educated by someone who took the time to see that I was rational, that I loved my animals, and that I could learn. If I had been written off as "bad" or "the problem" without someone taking the time to approach me, I would likely still be breeding because within the bubble of my culture and my upbringing it was not considered bad.

[Jennicat]

Please, stop with the farm way of life. I grew up on a farm too. Animals died there too. That doesn't mean I'm intolerant because I feel like there's a different way. I majored in agriculture at college. I can castrate any male livestock animal, artificially inseminate several types, dissect, kill, birth, hatch, you name it.

I don't seek out the breeder threads. I deal with enough stupid breeders in the rescue. Why would I seek out headaches? I also don't have a lot of patience with people so dense that they'd ignore the big "We don't support breeding" plastered all over the forums. I have absolutely no interest in interacting with a breeder with cutesy wootsy baby piggies when I'm up to my eyeballs in them.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[envisionary333]

Originally Posted by Mommy Of One

Also, I don't hate breeders either 'nor did I actually say I did and if that is how it sounded that is bad wording on my part, but I meant many people on this forum hated the fact that they are cruel. And this may obviously differ through other peoples eyes but I mean that they are cruel as in how the sows are forced to spew out babies! I feel very strongly about this topic, so I am mixing emotions with my words and things may not come out the way it is meant but the point is I have observed alot of us dislike breeders not for them personally but for their 'work' and what they do. As said, they can take the absoloute best care of their piggers but when it comes down to it, if you really love an animal anyone in their right mind wouldn't tamper with their lives.

I bolded your statement exactly as is because that is the key point I was making. Saying that we HATE breeders is inappropriate terminology that will only cause conflicts. Even saying that almost all of us feel that way is too broad of a statement to make on other's behalf, especially since you admit that you do not hate breeders yourself. I am not arguing that most of us have objections to the actions of most breeders, but you simply cannot say that nearly everyone of us hates them. That is not the truth, and those inflammatory statements will cause lots of conflict.

Your judgment that anyone who really loves an animal wouldn't tamper with their lives is a moral judgment, it is your opinion. It is not a fact. Many breeders feel that they are genuinely trying to help the animals they breed by giving them a better genetic pool and keeping them in good health. I absolutely don't think this is the case the vast majority of the time, but I think it's important to realize that you are not arguing a fact. You are arguing an opinion. People who treat their opinions as facts that everyone must accept are truly the root of the problems on this thread and in our constant conflicts, both with breeders and rescuers alike. We will never get anywhere in our discussions unless we realize the distinction.

[kathrynj]

Originally Posted by smartorl

Continue to be resistant. Like I said, your inability to bend will cause deaths, they are on your hands not mine, I sleep very well knowing that I make a difference each day. I don't hate that which I don't know and don't take the time to understand. I am not closed minded. I am willing to see it through someone elses eyes so I understand where they are coming from and try to let them see through mine. People like me will make a difference, while people like you huddle in your little group and hate that which you don't know.

It is my sole inability that causes deaths? I don't think so. I have 'personally' rescued many pigs, spent far too many hours to count caring for, far too much money at vets for, far too much travelling to get, and a whole lot of emotional investment in many underprivelidged pigs, and been on many breeder freindly forums, educating and actually putting my hands where my mouth is so to speak, and helped out in that capacity.

And you know what? I would do it all 10 times over, because you know what? I feel that I am making a difference.

I have a very very clear concience.

This whole 'people like me' and 'people like you' talk is really really silly.

I actually don't huddle in any group, I stand alone, and as someone who knows me not, I really am wondering why you choose to make it so personal?

[wheeky-UK]

Originally Posted by CavySpirit

Bull. Slap's purpose in posting was NOT to let people know what she had been up to. And sorry darling, but she IS defending breeders.

Ok Cavyspirit, i really dont like being talked to like that, that was my opinion on the post and i had a right to say it. This is a debate forum.

The original post was not writen in a nasty way, they actually said they hoped everyone was ok and basically told everyone what she now thinks. Many people actually thanked that original post, so at least a few didnt see it as a "self justification" post. But what followed from other peoples posts was quite nasty in my opinion.

Originally Posted by susan9608

Gosh, it sounds like these breeders aren't just good - they sound almost saint-like! *gag* So what?

Sarcasm is the lowest form of putting someone down, not nice.

Here is an example of some swearing. From a Mod too. Children do read this forum.

Originally Posted by cavyspirit

But, I'll tell you, here's what really pisses me off, quite frankly

Just a word on the whole "doing something wrong/bad will get me banned" topic.

Originally Posted by QuackXP

I had a longer winded post put up here but realized I was ranting and did not want to get banned. I cant delete it so this is what is left. Suffice to say I feel no point in posting in The Kitchen anymore so ill see everyone in the rest of the forum.

I know only really bad stuff will get you banned and only after a long time, but it looks like quite a few people do have this idea that you will get banned if you say something against what this forum says. Whether people/Mods disagree with this, it still shows that quite a few (including myself sometimes, i do find myself watching what i say just incase i get jumped on) do feel a little scared about how to reply/post. This obviously isnt the way it should be, and i think it is because the more extreme people have such solid beliefs that other less extreme people feel a little intimidated? (Not sure if thats the right word.)

I really do love this forum and have leant so much, which is what it should be all about. But it does seem that you just simply cant have a civil debate, without the snide remarks, sarcasm etc, which is a shame.

[Mommy Of One]

Originally Posted by smartorl

Not to be mean, Mommy of One but you are pointing fingers saying "wrong" when you lack the basic husbandry knowledge. In turn, someone could say that you shouldn't own pigs because you don't know enough of normal behavior to spot a problem. Not saying this is the case, just that there are many things to look at, many ways to see things.

Excuse me?
This is off topic but why would you say that?
To be off topic and get me frustrated? I admitt I may not be the most knowlegable person but I am sure that you have asked questions one time or another too. Big deal. Nice argument. And what does that even have to do with the main topic. Nice attempt to try and put someone down, and I am not stupid. If you are going to try and get me to say something like, 'Don't be so judgemental you don't even know me.' and then you try quoting me and saying that is where I should begin to think of breeders... Too bad. It's not going to work. And envisionary, don't confuse the two sentences together.

the point is I have observed alot of us dislike breeders not for them personally but for their 'work' and what they do. As said, they can take the absoloute best care of their piggers but when it comes down to it, if you really love an animal anyone in their right mind wouldn't tamper with their lives.

I didn't say that that was other peoples opinions, nor was it a fact. I know that is my opinion. And I said alot, as in not all, but atleast a handful. And you can tell where people stand from their thank you's, so I am going to stick with that word, 'alot'. You are not getting what I am trying to stress. You are mixing up my words and getting them confused. This is probably my fault the way I type them out but please be positive you know what you are talking about when you are typing this out.

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by smartorl

Of course people think about it but people do not decide to have children and assume that most will die, same as I don't think breeders breed pigs thinking that most will die, they look to the positive of those who live. When issues of birth, which is associated in history as renewal are thought about, death and disaster are usually not what people think about.

People, people, people. What people do with their own bodies is their concern. What people do with the bodies of guinea pigs, that is wrongly seen as a human concern too. Never mind what the guinea pigs would like, or what would be best for them as an individual and a species. It's all about people. People's selfish wants over an animals actual needs.

There is no comparison between people who choose to procreate and people who force animals to breed for their own pleasure.

[envisionary333]

Originally Posted by Mommy Of One

I didn't say that that was other peoples opinions, nor was it a fact. I know that is my opinion. And I said alot, as in not all, but atleast a handful. And you can tell where people stand from their thank you's, so I am going to stick with that word, 'alot'. You are not getting what I am trying to stress. You are mixing up my words and getting them confused. This is probably my fault the way I type them out but please be positive you know what you are talking about when you are typing this out.

Look, I'm sorry for being harsh with you. I just don't like to hear someone trying to speak for the majority of the members here with your statement. It's probably true though, many of the members here do dislike breeders for their actions (as opposed to disliking them personally). I'm glad you realize that it's an opinion and not a fact. I am frustrated more with the larger tone of this thread and not you personally, so I apologize for taking it out on you. That was not the intent.

I'm tired of hearing people on either end of the spectrum acting as if their opinion is the only option and there are no other ways of thinking. There are a lot of ways to think about this, and I don't think anyone should base their opinions solely on what they read in this forum. It is all second-or-third hand knowledge, and the issue is very broad. I'm not a breeder, I'm not a rescuer. I don't personally know any breeders, and I have been to a few rescues, but I do not have a good grasp on the larger scheme of things. It's very easy to preach beliefs about abstract concepts, about what is best in principle. I guess I'm more interested in what's practical, what can be done, and how to do it. I don't think it's practical or sensible to stick to black-and-white views and block everyone else out of them. Others have made this point, and I completely agree. I think many of us have no right to judge others on a subject that we have no first-hand knowledge of, myself included. Focus on learning and open your mind to new modes of thought before you come to your conclusions. Don't believe something because everyone on a forum says it is the "right" way. Absorb information and experiences, listen to your gut, and find your own answers. And don't put yourself on the moral high ground if others choose to disagree.

As an aside, "alot" is two words: "a lot." But I know what you mean.

[Mommy Of One]

Haha.
It is OK.
And er- Boy that is embarrising!
As for the second paragraph, I agree.
There is more than one way, and it is for you to decide what is the right way (In your opinion) and not for others to decide for you.

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by envisionary333

Don't believe something because everyone on a forum says it is the "right" way.

Do you really think that is true of those who are anti-breeding on this thread? I find it a little insulting for you to imply that is the case...

[Mommy Of One]

Originally Posted by thalestral

Do you really think that is true of those who are anti-breeding on this thread? I find it a little insulting for you to imply that is the case...

I don't think that you got that right.
I think that she meant those who can't make up their minds or are pretending or just 'follow the herd' and don't truly believe the forums morals should not pretend that they do, and they should not be afraid to speak their own opinion?

[envisionary333]

Originally Posted by thalestral

Do you really think that is true of those who are anti-breeding on this thread? I find it a little insulting for you to imply that is the case...

Please step back and realize what I am saying before you become insulted. I think this forum, for better or for worse, has a very strong influence on the members who come here and read about the problems with breeders, pet stores, and the overpopulation of guinea pigs. Many of us are quickly convinced that we should adopt a strict anti-breeding, anti-pet store, pro-rescue stance ourselves, myself included. Most of us have no actual experience with breeders or rescues when we arrive at this forum, and no previous knowledge about the issues at hand- and again, myself included. What I AM saying is that for the members who have been strongly influenced by the beliefs on this forum, it is a good idea to get out there in the real world and experience the basis of these beliefs so you can truly understand the situation. Otherwise, we are forced to imagine all the scenarios in our heads, and it's all too easy to get carried away or generalize.

Personally, I like to be as informed as possible before I commit to a belief. That is why I am often so tentative to come out and make bold right-or-wrong statements, I prefer to learn as much as I can and remain neutral on the issues until I feel I have the ability to make a decision that is comprehensive and backed by facts and experiences.