Change, an update

[Susan9608]

I had a longer winded post put up here but realized I was ranting and did not want to get banned. I cant delete it so this is what is left. Suffice to say I feel no point in posting in The Kitchen anymore so ill see everyone in the rest of the forum.

Just what is the point of making a a post like this? There is *no* point in coming on to a thread and saying, "Oh I was going to post, but now I'm not because I don't want to get banned, and by the way, I won't be posting in the kitchen anymore anyways." So you're not going to post in the kitchen anymore - big deal. Who cares? If you don't want to, don't. But making a speech about it seems like an appeal for attention and seems an awful lot like flouncing ... if not flouncing from the forum, then flouncing from the kitchen. Plus, as Salana very eloquently said:

It's simply because we don't ban and demote people unless they really screw up our forum with spamming, chatspeak, trolling, sock-puppetry, etc.

We don't ban people for having an opposing view. This insistence on claiming that people are "afraid" to post out of fear that they will be banned is just melodrama.

Also I must say that the amount of swearing that has been said (some very bad) wasnt very nice to read and completly unnecessary.

What swearing?

[Fluffy_Guinea]

Also I must say that the amount of swearing that has been said (some very bad) wasn't very nice to read and completely unnecessary.

Like Susan said what swearing I don't remember reading any swearing maybe it depends on what you classify as swearing. I have seen Slap compare us to racists though which was extremely rude.

and we don't want to look bad. It's simply because we don't ban and demote people unless they really screw up our forum with spamming, chatspeak, trolling, sock-puppetry, etc

I have not ever seen one person be banned or demoted for breeding or supporting breeders. I have seen people get demoted or banned when we try to kindly explain why breeding and petstores are bad and then those people get defensive and usually argue and start yelling and I have seen some people attack some of the other members personally. I'm not saying breeders are bad people some are great people but I think what they are doing is terrible.

I also believe the animal overpopulation is not because of breeders

I know it's a bit late to reply to this but I am going to anyway. Weaver if it's not caused by breeders then who is causing it some magical fairy? Breeders are one of the biggest causes why? Well because even though animals are being euthanized in shelters they continue to breed more taking away homes from shelter animals. Petstores are too part of the problem but breeders are too.

[Mommy Of One]

Thank you Susan!
As for you Slap, honestly I would love to know what you would expect from a pro rescue forum? You don't need to be a fortune teller to know that we would all be dissapointed and speachless. Maybe you won't post here but I can almost guarentee that you will moniter such a heated topic. I think that we need to accept that all people have different views and we can't change every single persons opinion, but I am sure many of us defiantly feel it is worth a try and if something is worth doing you might aswel do it right. So I am going to put my two cents in. You realise you have made many of us' jaw drop to the floor seeing how you went from such a caring, compassionate person to siding with breeders and pet stores. I know as a fact alot of us were thinking, 'How could you?' as we were reading this.
And you may not be too happy with us about bashing you but really. One thing almost all of us share in common is that we love, care, and respect animals, especially guinea pigs and hate breeders and pet stores for the fact they are cruel in an unusual way. Which is why many people in this world don't understand why breeders and pet shops are considered bad. Pet shops and Breeders are cruel, always have been but it has taken a while for some of us to catch on why. Bassically, female guinea pigs are bred over and over again continuously until she isn't good enough. And don't tell me this isn't true because then why are there so many pigs from breeders in shelters? I also find it very odd that you came back to tell us that you have changed for the worst and it seems almost as if you came back to watch us become frustrated! I would love to know what your reason was to come back and upset us? By all means stay as you please, but don't try to feed us Bull and possibly convince new members that we are all wrong. This is just how it seems to me. Hope this makes sence what I am trying to stress. Also, if there wern't breeders then there wouldn't be a pet population crisis and this is the fact so let's be mature and face it! What do you think? Guinea pigs climb out of their cages at night and 'get it on' by themselves?!

[kathrynj]

The bottom line for me, is no matter how good and responsible a breeder is, to breed when there is such a huge over population, kinda takes to terms 'good' and 'responsible' and turns it to 'selfish'. For me anyhow.

[Fluffy_Guinea]

The bottom line for me, is no matter how good and responsible a breeder is, to breed when there is such a huge over population, kinda takes to terms 'good' and 'responsible' and turns it to 'selfish'. For me anyhow.

I agree Katt no matter how 'good' and 'responsible' they are they are still breeding and contributing to the animal overpopulation problem and that is selfish.

[kathrynj]

Yeah fluffy, they can be as wonderful caregivers as can be, but adding to the problem with breeding just is beyond my comprehension.

[Fluffy_Guinea]

Yes I know how you feel I still don't care how great of a caregiver they are still breeding and adding to the overpopulation problem and I will never support them.

[WEAVER]

Fluffy Guinea--Don't just pull one of my sentences out of the content to make it say something else besides the point I was try to make. This is what I said.

"I also don't believe that all breeders are bad, I just don't. I don't think they are all good, but I can not sit here and say that I think they are "bad". Do I think they add to the overpopulation problem...yes...but I also think petstores selling animals are a larger problem, uneducated shelters, and the backyard clueless breeders. I don't blame the breeder for ALL of the pigs sitting in the rescue."

[kathrynj]

I agree that it is a 'big picture' as far as the overpopulation problem. I am not going to assign degrees of blame though.

[Fluffy_Guinea]

Oh no I'm sorry Weaver I misread your post I guess I just scanned through it I'm deeply sorry.

[smartorl]

I think the whole point and purpose is being missed, breeders are not bad, they are often uneducated. I was a breeder, I had no earthly idea, honestly, that there was a massive population problem. You can't blame people who are unaware, whether by design or by what they have been conditioned to. I was unaware that I was part of a huge problem. The point is education not alienation. You can teach the breeders and believe it or not the breeders can have alot to offer you as well. Breeders may not be banned but the are ostracized and if you track their threads, you will see potshots taken. They get angry and leave. That is a battle not won in the name of the animals. I really feel that the word breeder is looked at like a curse word on this forum. I understand the passion but alot of negativity is behind that word, when it is simply a word, a bland term that can mean a myriad of things.

As far as the racism, a jab was taken on both sides that has been blownway out of the context of the post. I made a tongue in cheek stab at the slavery comment. I don't think it is relevant here.

[Susan9608]

As far as the racism, a jab was taken on both sides that has been blownway out of the context of the post

Both sides? No, I just don't see it.

I don't think it is relevant here.

Too bad, other people do (and did) and so do I. Slavery itself had nothing to do with the discussion, and nothing was said about the act of slavery. The point was the activism BEHIND slavery that helped bring about it's end, despite the many defeatists out there who said it would always continue. Just like with breeding ... many people say it's ALWAYS going to happen. I think that's defeatist, and I see no reason why it should ALWAYS have to happen. I happen to think that's very relevant to the discussion.

[smartorl]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Both sides? No, I just don't see it.



Too bad, other people do (and did) and so do I. Slavery itself had nothing to do with the discussion, and nothing was said about the act of slavery. The point was the activism BEHIND slavery that helped bring about it's end, despite the many defeatists out there who said it would always continue. Just like with breeding ... many people say it's ALWAYS going to happen. I think that's defeatist, and I see no reason why it should ALWAYS have to happen. I happen to think that's very relevant to the discussion.

And Slap was comparing the all or nothing, very emotionally charged stance of for examply a white power group. Because they are so charged with "the truth" they appear fanatical. Both sides made a comparison that they felt was relevant.

I don't understand how people can't agree to disagree. To be honest, the inability of the rescue people, which splits up people and groups, detracts from the common target which is to end overpopulation and provide a better life for the animals. It is no different that two candidates in an election from one party splitting the vote and handing the victory to their opponent. If people could work together for the common good and put aside titles and preconceived notions, alot more positive change could be made. This is a private forum and can be run however you choose, I respect that, but understand the "in your face" message does in some cases isolates valuable people. Not saying your stance could or should change, no it is based on solid values but perhaps the "my way or the highway" motto could be softened a bit so that more people would join the cause.

[kathrynj]

If we all agreed to disagree on everything, nothing would ever get achieved in any facet of society.

[smartorl]

Do you want to rethink that comment? Are you kidding me? We can't agree that each day hundreds of thousands of perfectly normal, healthy animals of all types are destroyed in this country? We can't agree that something needs to be done? But even if that is in a no brainer, everyone needs to do it their own way because no one else shares their vision? Forgive me but that is purely ignorant. Change happens because people care enough to come together and make a difference. It is a concept as old as man himself. A group working together can accomplish much, much more than any individual. To me, these petty standards of what is right and wrong are plain selfish because it slows down any progress towards really making a difference.

Let's go back to the abolitionists ending slavery, they did it because they believed in their cause and banded together and hit it and kept hitting it building backers and momentum. They spoke to free men. They spoke to slave owners, they swayed many to release their slaves prior to any legislation. Go ahead sit in your glass house and point fingers and wonder why nothing is changing, you are as much to blame as the breeders.

[kathrynj]

You have taken my comment and twisted it around there haha

I am sure among the slaves and slave owners, there were those who were resistant to abolishing the practice. I do not believe they would ever have agreed to disagree on that issue, as I will never agree to disagree on this one.

Show me one, just one responsible breeder that meets all of VJ's criterias, and I may change my mind.

That I am in any way responsible for over population as a breeder, well that just even defies my commenting on it.

[smartorl]

As a breeder I did. VJ and I have discussed it in the past, I was open about my practices long before she posted the first list. I know two right now that would stand up to that criteria. I am working on getting them out of breeding and really think that in the end, they will stop breeding.

Continue to be resistant. Like I said, your inability to bend will cause deaths, they are on your hands not mine, I sleep very well knowing that I make a difference each day. I don't hate that which I don't know and don't take the time to understand. I am not closed minded. I am willing to see it through someone elses eyes so I understand where they are coming from and try to let them see through mine. People like me will make a difference, while people like you huddle in your little group and hate that which you don't know.

[thalestral]

Perhaps you should read up more on abolition and why some believe that AW blocks the progress of AR. Needless to say that in this issue as with many, not everyone is going to agree with you. Regardless of whether you call those who have differing opinions "ignorant" or that they "huddle" in their groups.

[envisionary333]

Originally Posted by Mommy Of One

One thing almost all of us share in common is that we love, care, and respect animals, especially guinea pigs and hate breeders and pet stores for the fact they are cruel in an unusual way. Which is why many people in this world don't understand why breeders and pet shops are considered bad. Pet shops and Breeders are cruel, always have been but it has taken a while for some of us to catch on why.

You are exemplifying the epitome of the black-and-white, narrow-minded view that is alienating so many people. I think it has been said again and again that many do not "hate" all breeders. We do, however, all hate the overpopulation problem, but we have different ways of appropriating blame and deciding on solutions. I certainly don't hate all breeders, they are not all the same. But they do all contribute to the same problem. Using emotionally charged words such as "hate" is not going to resolve anything, especially when you are attempting to speak for all of us at once. You can speak for yourself and your own opinion, but do not presume that you are speaking for the entire forum. That is not the case.

Again, no one is disputing the facts. This is an OPINION based topic that involves someone's deeply ingrained morals and life experiences. Let's discuss our beliefs respectfully. What is right and wrong for one person is not going to be the same for the next, and NO one should rationally expect that they can convince everyone on the planet to agree with them. You can only explain to them the information and experiences to lead you to the beliefs you have, and hope they decide to make the same leap. If you do this respectfully and honestly, you are far more likely to change their views than if you attack them. In the end, we are never going to all be on the same page. Accept that, and let's see what we CAN accomplish together for the well being of animals everyone, each in our own way.

[Mommy Of One]

Originally Posted by envisionary333

You are exemplifying the epitome of the black-and-white, narrow-minded view that is alienating so many people. I think it has been said again and again that many do not "hate" all breeders. We do, however, all hate the overpopulation problem, but we have different ways of appropriating blame and deciding on solutions. I certainly don't hate all breeders, they are not all the same. But they do all contribute to the same problem. Using emotionally charged words such as "hate" is not going to resolve anything, especially when you are attempting to speak for all of us at once. You can speak for yourself and your own opinion, but do not presume that you are speaking for the entire forum. That is not the case.

Read this again.

One thing almost all of us share in common is that we love, care, and respect animals, especially guinea pigs and hate breeders and pet stores for the fact they are cruel in an unusual way.

I am not speaking for the entire forum.
I specifically said almost all of us and this is an observation based on others responces. Also, I don't hate breeders either 'nor did I actually say I did and if that is how it sounded that is bad wording on my part, but I meant many people on this forum hated the fact that they are cruel. And this may obviously differ through other peoples eyes but I mean that they are cruel as in how the sows are forced to spew out babies! I feel very strongly about this topic, so I am mixing emotions with my words and things may not come out the way it is meant but the point is I have observed alot of us dislike breeders not for them personally but for their 'work' and what they do. As said, they can take the absoloute best care of their piggers but when it comes down to it, if you really love an animal anyone in their right mind wouldn't tamper with their lives. I hate that breeders bassically 'play god' with their animals. I have bolded and underlined some things in hopes no one will twist my words as this seems to be happening alot.