Change, an update

[smartorl]

I am proof that it achieves something. I rescue, I no longer breed, is that failure?

I don't know what you have at home, nor do I care, nor is it any of my business, if you do or don't have fish is irrelevant. I actually logged on last night to reply to a thread to try and help a fish with a swim bladder issue, I was nailed by a member for giving out innaccurate information, I backed up my treatment with links and was curious about the other member, looking at her posts, she bought a beta at Walmart and it was cool to everyone that posted on that thread. This was not the only fish thread I saw and the consensus seemed to be that they were ok so that is why I brought it up.
I found that to be hypocritical given the mission statement of this forum.

[Susan9608]

I also believe the animal overpopulation is not because of breeders,

Oh I'm sorry - I was under the impression that breeders breed more animals, even though there are plenty of animals sitting in shelters? Is that not right? I think that on average, at least 25% of animals in shelters are pure bred animals, so at this point in time, it's pretty easy to get a pure bred animal without resorting to a breeder.

I'm sorry, WEAVER, but with all due respect - especially given your history here - I cannot buy the "middle of the road" thing from you, particularly about breeding. I just can't ... unless things have drastically changed. And welcome back, by the way, haven't seen you here in an awfully long time.

ETA: I don't think you'll find any of the "powers that be" saying that it's okay to buy fish from the pet store.

[WEAVER]

I am not "in the middle of the road". Without a doubt I am very pro-rescue and work very hard on the behalf of the homeless animals and the rescues that help them. I also understand and see though there is a much bigger issue than breeders that aid to all of the unwanted animals out there.

I also don't believe that all breeders are bad, I just don't. I don't think they are all good, but I can not sit here and say that I think they are "bad". Do I think they add to the overpopulation problem...yes...but I also think petstores selling animals are a larger problem, uneducated shelters, and the backyard clueless breeders. I don't blame the breeder for ALL of the pigs sitting in the rescue.

[catzeye21138]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Oh I'm sorry - I was under the impression that breeders breed more animals, even though there are plenty of animals sitting in shelters? Is that not right? I think that on average, at least 25% of animals in shelters are pure bred animals, so at this point in time, it's pretty easy to get a pure bred animal without resorting to a breeder.

Please define a pure bred animal. I am really curious as a matter of fact. I have studied a lot about showing and what a pure bred animal entitles and it is much more complex than I first believed it to be. I'm not trying to make anyone angry or upset, but as for me, I have yet to see a "Pure bred" in any shelter or rescue. And I have been to a LOT of them.

(Not that it matters. I personally adore Aby-peruvian crosses)

[Susan9608]

I also don't believe that all breeders are bad

I don't think that anyone has claimed that breeders are bad people; they could be lovely, angelic people for all I know. The few I have met, and am casual friends with, are nice enough. One of my co-workers breeds labs. She's an excellent nurse, no one better in an emergency. I respect her very much in many ways. But I think her actions in the breeding arena are despicable. Totally completely despicable and selfish and horrible and bad. It's the act of breeding, especially when you already know that there's such a population of animals without homes, that's so horrible.

I just don't see the other side here. Either you think it's okay to breed (because even if you apply conditions, you're still saying that it's okay) or you don't.

Please define a pure bred animal.

Seriously? A pure bred animal is one that is of only one breed, no mixes. I think that what's available as a "pure bred" animal in most shelters is acceptable to most people.

[catzeye21138]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Seriously? A pure bred animal is one that is of only one breed, no mixes. I think that what's available as a "pure bred" animal in most shelters is acceptable to most people.

Oh yeaahhh... There goes my brain again! My brain is connecting "pure bred" with "show quality". This tends to happen a lot to me.

[mommyoffive]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

I don't think you'll find any of the "powers that be" saying that it's okay to buy fish from the pet store.

I would just like to comment on this one little thing. You CANNOT rescue fish...and if there is any fish rescues out there I would surley like to know about them? I buy from fish breeders online, my babies are alive, healthy and well. And occasionally I will buy fish from my store. I bought a common pleco a year ago and he's now almost 8 inches.

[Susan9608]

You CANNOT rescue fish

I could be mistaken about this, but I believe a few of our members has actually rescued fish. I don't think it's common, because fish die so quickly (due to improper care) and/or are set "free" when they become too much trouble.

Like reptiles, I don't think fish ought to be kept as pets, but that's a whole other issue.

[kathrynj]

I also believe the animal overpopulation is not because of breeders, it is so much larger than that.

Its those pesky storks that bring too many.

[VoodooJoint]

I would simply like to point out that back on page 2 I asked a series of questions in a polite and rather non-judgemental or attacking way but none of them were answered. I would not care if they weren't answered except Slap did say that I was showing how there could indeed be "responsible" breeders but did not confirm that any of the "good" breeders she knows does anything at all on the list I provided.

It did sound to me like maybe Slap agreed with my requirement list but failed to address it as it would pertain to the breeders she has met. I would be very interested in hearing about it.

[salana]

I would like to point out that nobody has been banned or demoted for supporting/not supporting/waffling about breeding. And it's not because people are yelling "You guys ban and demote! OMG!" and we don't want to look bad. It's simply because we don't ban and demote people unless they really screw up our forum with spamming, chatspeak, trolling, sock-puppetry, etc.

Instead, what's happened? People countered Slap and JennG with facts, with questions, with rhetoric. And Slap and JennG had few answers.

So that's what you'll get if you post pro-breeder stuff here: argued with. You will get told.

Clearly, that's evil and angry of us, and we mods are closed-minded.

And the many threads you can read where people are defending breeding? Obviously that's a sign that we censor opinions we disagree with...by countering them.

I think people who know their opinions lack merit and/or factual support are the first to cry censorship and banning.

I am posting disjointedly because, hey, I work two retail jobs and it's almost 2am here. But this thread left me shaking my head that Slap and JennG could have gotten their brains so mixed up as to accuse us of being ban-happy. Actually, I think it's kind of funny.

ETA:

Hey, you know how many of our impactions have to do with breeding? ONE. We give a low-level impaction (2 poos, I think) for telling people HOW to breed or show. Geeze Slap...you'd have to spread your newfound breeding and showing wisdom around five times before you even got caged. How freakin' lenient are we? I bet all you'd have to do on your favorite white power website is mention interracial marriage once, and you'd get totally banhammered.

[wickedrodent]

Before I make an indepth post I would also like to hear the answers to VJ's questions.

[crazywiggy]

Okay, there are so many points I want to raise here I don't know where to start.....

Firstly - Slap: I am certainly not going to judge you for your oringinal post as some members have.

I know a lot of people here think giving up your pets to rescue is bad. If it is because of laziness, not doing your research, you got bored of them etc then I would totally agree. But I believe you had a valid reason. At the end of the day the animals welfare should always come first. If you were in a position where you couldn't give your guinea pigs the best, then surrendering them so that they could find a new home that could was the right thing to do. It must have been heartbreaking and I feel for you.

About breeders:

Before anyone decides to start on me, let me clarify this. I KNOW about overpopulation and pigs dying in shelters. I KNOW breeding more makes the problem worse. And for that reason alone I am against breeding. I am NOT against keeping pets in general, and I would have no problem at all with caring, responsible breeding if there was no overpopulation.

There are an awful lot of crap breeders out there - all the 4Hrs, BYBs and mills.... For evey "good" breeder, there are probably hundreds of people doing it for all the wrong reasons and doing it wrong.

However, I agree that some breeders are not like this. Some, like Slap has said, do care about their animals, know about genetics, breed for nice temperaments and good health etc.

Of course, by doing ANY breeding they contribute to overpopulation. Yes this is bad. But as I said, these people are few and far between. Compared to the mills and BYBs they have quite a small effect. It is these guys I think we should be focusing on.

Abandoned homeless piggies is not ONLY down to breeding. It is also down to the people who buy them. A good breeder will only sell who people to can care for them properly, know what they are getting into etc. Mills, BYBs and pet stores sell to anyone with a buck, encourage impulse buying, don't tell people how much care they need etc.

In the long term, if we can overcome the problem of overpopulation, it is the responsible breeders we would want to do ANY breeding of guinea pigs, so that we can continue to keep them. I therefore don't think we need to worry too much about eradicating the few breeders who are responsible. If we can stop the sale of animals in pet stores, for example, half the battle is already won (as by definition "impulse buyers" see something cute and buy without thinking).

Anyway, I'm waffling.... I AM against breeding because of overpopulation. I DO always encourage people to adopt rather than buy. I ALWAYS tell people who want to breed all the reasons why they shouldn't. But I don't think attacking responsible breeders is the way forward, when I believe it is the BYBs, mills and pet stores who are primarily responsible.

As to Slap actually posting these views on here....

I don't think he was doing it to cause trouble. It takes a lot to stand up and say that, despite having believed something for so long, you were wrong about it. Slap has already said he has no intention of breeding, and he does rescue / adopt, so I don't think we should having a go at him.

The only problem I really see is that it is easier to have a "black and white policy" on the issue. It is far easier to explain that "we should adopt not buy", than to try to explain how to find a responsible breeder and how it is better to adopt than buy, but some breeders are ok..... It gets very confusing.

[smartorl]

After reading Salana's post, I feel I need to clarify.

I don't see Slap's post as defending breeders or patting them on the back. She simply stated that in her mind previously, she had an image of horrid people doing horrid things and when she saw for herself, she realized they were not some horrid monsters but normal everyday people.

I got from reading her post that instead of some Frankenstein doctor that she imagined with each person labeled a "breeder" from what she had been conditioned, that some of the people she met were normal people and really put effort into their programs.

I don't think I ever heard or interpretted it to say that breeding is good or that breeding is better than rescue, on the contrary, I think she stated the opposite several times.

I think her point was that rather than view breeders as bad and see them as unchangeable, they are rational human beings in some cases and to discount them entirely because they breed is turning your back on a valuable resource.

I have seen people from this board become very heated practically immediately at the mere mention of breeding, I understand that it is a subject not taken lightly, but some of these people don't know what they are doing is wrong and as soon as an attack happens, members of the board are seen as over the top and the person often continues what they are doing because in their mind, what they are doing is still not wrong and the rescue group is not rational.

I think Slap is trying to point out that perhaps, as rational humans, simple conversation with respect with an eye on making a difference could make a difference.

I don't know where I would be right now if the person who swayed me into rescue as opposed to breeding would have attempted to club me over the head and drag me to her side, I likely would have shut down and gotten mad in all honestly. It was not an overnight thing and yet she was supportive and kind and respectful.

I think her post has been perceived in many ways, I think words were put into her mouth, I think she felt attacked and in human nature, that often results in knee jerk retaliation where things are said out of meanness. I think both sides are guilty of this actually.

I guess maybe reading and rereading the post, that I don't see alot of the happy breeder backup that others see. I read that she put a face to a group she previously thought was some horrid, uncaring being and doesn't feel that alienation is the answer.

[JennG]

Can I please reiterate? I am not nor will I be for breeding of any animal! My main point is that everyone needs to allow others to have a different point of view on here. Plain and simple! I'm all for rescuing any animal but I don't push down people's throats. And I know people are going to say, "Well isn't that the you get more bees w/ honey theory?" It is! I've worked in social services long enough to know that humor and kindness gets me farther than being a not-so-nice person. And once again I'm stressing that I AM NOT FOR BREEDING! I am for the fact w/ Slap on that there is a world outside here and she's experienced it. This is what she's learned. I've never met a breeder but I have talk w/ one and I was not happy. But that's just one person who breeds. Is breeding bad for GPS? Yes! I am not for breeding but for people to have an opinion on here. So this will be my last say on the whole thing because I feel like it's not really going to go anywhere.

I hope that those of you who really know me, know where I stand and that I take my furbabies very seriously. I just don't like some of the things that occur on here and that's why I don't post as often as I used. Plain and simple. And yes T, I am thinking for myself.

[QuackXP]

I had a longer winded post put up here but realized I was ranting and did not want to get banned. I cant delete it so this is what is left. Suffice to say I feel no point in posting in The Kitchen anymore so ill see everyone in the rest of the forum.

[thalestral]

1. Can people stop assuming that boycotting pet stores and breeders is all many members here do towards improving animal welfare or animal rights? Many of us here dedicate our time to educating others, to campaigning for law changes, for protesting against companies and practises, to rescuing and fostering guinea pigs ourselves or volunteering at or donating to rescues and so on. Boycotting is simply the tip of the iceberg in terms of what being anti-breeding and pro-rescue is all about.

2. If you get offended at practises towards humans and practises towards animals being compared, what does this say about your opinions? That you don't see animals as being important enough to merit such a comparison. That stopping something towards animals is just not important enough. Many of us here do see it as being important enough and that is not something I think that can ever be criticised - for caring too much?

3. I find it very silly that people have come here to express an opinion against the forum beliefs and do so in a hostile manner. It is one thing to present your views in a polite and respectful manner, as some have done, it is quite another to act like members responding have no lives, or even worse to compare people who are pro-AR to white power people - now that is unbelievably offensive.

I think everyone needs to cool down a little, and I say this as only my opinion and not as someone of power as of course I am not.

Do people really think that those here on the boards go out of their way looking for breeders to insult them and belittle them? Or do you think that perhaps they are just tired of people coming to a blatantly pro-rescue forum and giving breeders any kind of good words?


Breeding will never end unless enough people believe that it will. To believe that it will means we acknowledge that it is wrong. In any circumstances in my particular belief, with conditions in others.

I am not a member of ALF, and I would thank people not to try and pigeon hole people based on their beliefs, particularly if they think of comparing those who care about animals to racist humans.

[envisionary333]

I'm jumping in a little late here, but I would like to add a few general comments about the topics discussed. This is not directed towards anyone in particular, but more a reflection on the broader subject matter.

I think the issues that are being debated, in some cases rather vigorously, are fundamentally unresolvable because they are based on ethics. Most of us are aware of the facts: there is a severe overpopulation problem with guinea pigs and most pets, many breeders have no interest in the health or well being of their stock, guinea pigs are widely kept in poor conditions and often abandoned, and there are very, very few breeders out there who are truly knowledgeable and caring with their animals. It is in deciding what to do with these facts that we diverge into our different opinions. Is it better for guinea pigs to not be bred at all and to fade into extinction as a pet? Should animals be sold at all, is that morally acceptable? Is a guinea pig truly happy living under the control of humans, or does a caged existence restrict them from enjoying their natural behaviors and life cycles? Does a guinea pig even care about it's owners? Unfortunately, the guinea pigs can't tell us what they want, and it is our responsibility as humans to try to do what we feel is best for them. Clearly this is not easy. And clearly there is not one answer, this is a very complicated subject that relates to one's emotional, spiritual, moral, and philosophical beliefs. I don't think anyone can expect us all the agree.

Personally, I doubt that guinea pigs regard their human owners with any type of special significance, other than a provider of food. I rarely handle my guinea pigs because I think they prefer to be left to their own devices, and instead I prefer to watch them and feed them by hand. But are my guinea pigs happy? I think so. They have a huge cage, fresh veggies every day, unlimited food, lots of company, toys, stimulation, and are kept in perfect health. Is this a better life than what guinea pigs in the wild experience? I can't really say, but I certainly don't think it's torture. Then again, they are missing out on some of the most natural experiences for a guinea pig: new smells and places to explore, mating and raising young, and the exhilarating joy of being free to live a life as they please.

If everyone cared for their guinea pigs like I do and no one ever gave them up for adoption and all breeders were perfectly responsible and put the well being of their guinea pigs above all else, I would support the continued existence of guinea pigs as pets. Unfortunately, this is far from the case. More often than not, parents buy them for their kids and give them up when the children get bored with them, they are tossed around and abused, kept in dirty cages, deprived of sensory stimulation, fed a poor diet, treated as a commodity, equated to their monetary value and not as a life form, and denied their most basic needs. It seems that humans can't help but abuse their power over these helpless creatures, and even well-intentioned humans can't possibly crawl into the head of their guinea pig and figure out exactly how they want to live. Given the current condition of guinea pig care and the likelihood that these problems will persist, I think it would be better for the guinea pig to fade into extinction as a pet. As a whole, this would cause less pain and suffering for the species, in my opinion. And I feel the same way about many small animals kept in the home. While I think that more stringent controls should be placed on who breeds and who can own these animals, I still think the potential for abuse will always be there. I can't help but agree that an animal that does not particularly care for humans should not be forced to live a life under their complete control against their will.

As for social animals that have been domesticated for thousands of years and thrive under the care of humans, such as dogs and cats and ferrets, I have different beliefs. I would of course like to see backyard breeders and pet stores put to a halt, but I feel that these are animals that could be responsibly bred IF and only if the overpopulation problem was first put to a halt. I would like to see EVERYONE look to adoption before looking to a breeder in EVERY situation. I would like to see owners forced to undergo extensive training and tests before being allowed to own animals, and I think they should be checked upon periodically to be certain the animals are treated fairly. I think animals should be neutered and spayed consistently, and no person should ever attempt to breed without a huge amount of knowledge and experience on the subject. I would like to see parents stop buying animals for children who are not mature enough to care for them. I would like to see every single pet cared for properly. There is a lot of room for improvement, but I do feel that domesticated animals that enjoy human company can truly thrive with the right amount effort, awareness, and love.

As for this forum, I have a great deal of respect for the moderators who stick to their beliefs and try to make a change in the world. This is their site, and it is not my role to dictate what they want to promote. I know that at times it seems that those who speak their minds are berated, and there have been instances where the discussions have crossed a line of common courtesy. But I think this is because the people here are passionate about what they believe, and not because anyone wants to bring anyone else down. Let's remember that these are sensitive subjects that can't be resolved with name-calling or accusations. If we can discuss our opinions honestly and respectfully, wouldn't this be such an amazing place to learn about new ways of thinking?

[wheeky-UK]

Right, well just like envisionary im a little late for this debate but Im just gonna say a few words.

Reading the original post, i got the overall impression of someone who was a regular visitor, comming back and wanting to let people know what they have been up too.

They had an opinion on breeders and now, having gone out and seen it for themselves have an altered view on it. I can see what was trying to be said and that they were in no way defending breeders and promoting them. All they were trying to say was that sometimes it is good to go out there and experience it for yourself.

Everyone has an opinion on this, and thats great, but it feels like it has got a little out of hand and original points have gone astray. Also I must say that the amount of swearing that has been said (some very bad) wasnt very nice to read and completly unnecessary.

[CavySpirit]

Reading the original post, i got the overall impression of someone who was a regular visitor, comming back and wanting to let people know what they have been up too.

They had an opinion on breeders and now, having gone out and seen it for themselves have an altered view on it. I can see what was trying to be said and that they were in no way defending breeders and promoting them. All they were trying to say was that sometimes it is good to go out there and experience it for yourself.

Bull. Slap's purpose in posting was NOT to let people know what she had been up to. And sorry darling, but she IS defending breeders. AND she goes on to insult the forum based on her completely wrong assumptions of member statuses and then states that because of her knowingly inflamatory post, that she assumes she will be censured. Innocent post? No way. And the insults pile on in subsequent posts.

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

...

The showing world- also something you have to really experience before you can bash it. The shows that are sanctioned and attended by some of the top breeders are something to really watch. ...( tagging ) ... It doesn't hurt them, they don't bleed.

...

I don't think the blame needs to be put down on breeders as it is here. They are creating more animals, we know that. But the "good" breeders have a purpose with every litter. I think that the reality of the amount of people who buy pigs from a store and then a week, a month, a year or two down the road throw it into a rescue are realistically what is hurting the overpopulation. The people who don't think about the next 7 years as with this animal, and bring it to a shelter- or a rescue.

I've lurked for a while on the forum, I've not liked what I have read. I see too many people that could be welcomed as part of a community be driven away after a few posts, that they are "demoted" to Cavy Cager, as I am sure I will be here since I am not 100% anti what this forum stands for anymore. I will continue supporting solely the rescue side of this "war", but not in the manor of thinking that I once had.

...