Change, an update

[Fluffy_Guinea]

Unfortunately or fortunately, I must sign off to take care of my other babies. It really doesn't matter what anyone says because if you don't agree w/ the forum than you will not get anywhere. I am thinking and I am offended, analogy or not, w/ the whole comparison to slavery and GPs. I must now sign off to have a life.

Jenn if your telling us we have no lives then you must not if your on here right? Just like Jennicat said posting on a forum has nothing to do with having a life. Oh and I do have a life I have friends, family and I'm getting two guinea pigs soon so I do have a life. I'm also breathing and my heart is beating so am alive and so I do have a life. Susan also told you it was just an analogy so I don't see why your offended.

[Slap Maxwell]

Originally Posted by JennG

Unfortunately or fortunately, I must sign off to take care of my other babies. It really doesn't matter what anyone says because if you don't agree w/ the forum than you will not get anywhere. I am thinking and I am offended, analogy or not, w/ the whole comparison to slavery and GPs. I must now sign off to have a life.

Jenn, I do appreciate you get what I am saying. Sadly the more you read something over and over, the more it seems real to you, typically it is called brainwashing, but that seems a bit strong for the situation.

Last I remember before I left Teresa and I had discussed the anger on this forum, the way people were bashed. However nothing has changed and it seems in turn the forum activity is way down.

Although this is what I expected I assumed some people may have seen that this isn't a black and white subject, VJ just showed that, you can be a "responsible" breeder to these standards, it is near impossible, but apparently not black and white.

When I moved to my new apartment my neighbor invited me in to see his guinea pig and I brought him some hay. He had a 2x2 in his small place (I am above him with twice the room) and I asked if he made it himself- he said yes and that he was going to show it off but reading the forum made him think twice, even though his pig is a 7 year old blind boy. That made me go back to the forum and read. I was impressed my neighbor had seen it but saddened he was "afraid" to show off his cage.

I do have other things to do and I don't have time or patience for repetitive questions. Its like a wall here. And I am seeing a lot more ALF influence with the dissolution of domestic pets. Not my thing.

If the responses are that I came to stir up trouble or to troll, delete the thread. You have the tools if debate or drama isn't what you want here.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Jenn, I do appreciate you get what I am saying. Sadly the more you read something over and over, the more it seems real to you, typically it is called brainwashing, but that seems a bit strong for the situation.

Last I remember before I left Teresa and I had discussed the anger on this forum, the way people were bashed. However nothing has changed and it seems in turn the forum activity is way down.

Although this is what I expected I assumed some people may have seen that this isn't a black and white subject, VJ just showed that, you can be a "responsible" breeder to these standards, it is near impossible, but apparently not black and white.

When I moved to my new apartment my neighbor invited me in to see his guinea pig and I brought him some hay. He had a 2x2 in his small place (I am above him with twice the room) and I asked if he made it himself- he said yes and that he was going to show it off but reading the forum made him think twice, even though his pig is a 7 year old blind boy. That made me go back to the forum and read. I was impressed my neighbor had seen it but saddened he was "afraid" to show off his cage.

I do have other things to do and I don't have time or patience for repetitive questions. Its like a wall here. And I am seeing a lot more ALF influence with the dissolution of domestic pets. Not my thing.

Once again, you are making GROSS assumptions that are flat out wrong. First of all, this forum is as active as it ever was. And to my knowledge, it is one of, if not the, largest most active guinea pig forum on the net.

You are now trying to take another statement about breeding and turn it into an ALF position. Make wild accusations and now take your toys and go home. Figures. You KNOW you can no longer support your outrageous statements. Time to bale. I don't blame you. I'd look for a way out too if I were in your shoes.

[Slap Maxwell]

Yes, I remember you listing the other forums and telling the members with access to the private forum not to post on them, and let them die.

My statements aren't outrageous, they are simply not in line with yours, making them unacceptable. The personal insults are going to end up getting slung, zero tact here.

Several people said that domestic animals should be eliminated, if that is the agenda here I don't think you would have as many members. Although I know landhermie is a common poster on the ALF forums, I enjoy the basic care info that s/he puts out for people (not being sarcastic) and I think small pets are commonly overlooked.

I could go to a white power forum and see the same thing, just on a separate topic. Its the same attitude - for some reason the ''truth'' has hit the community here and there is no other way.

My attempt at being open minded has obviously failed, apparently I have been defeated by the Queen and her minions, that is fine. There is a world outside the internet and I think things out there are probably what should be concentrated on. Go out and convert a breeder, I would absolutely love it if they stood to hear one word of what you have to say with the tone used.

[kathrynj]

Seriously Slap, you are kidding right?

[Susan9608]

Several people said that domestic animals should be eliminated,

Um, I don't believe that anyone said that domestic pets *should* be eliminated; rather, I believe it was said that if they did die out - from lack of human intervention - that perhaps that would not be a tragedy. Quite different from saying that they SHOULD be eliminated. Besides, you cannot take the statements of one person (me being the individual saying that perhaps it wouldn't be a tragedy if domestic pets died out) and apply it to the forum as a whole.

My attempt at being open minded has obviously failed

*hysterical laughter*

Your attempt at being open minded? You're serious? Oh please. What you did was launch what amounts to an assault going against all the philosophies and principles of this forum, not to mention the personal experiences of every rescuer here who has had to clean up a breeders mess. You've used your position as a long time member coming back from a sabbatical to spring this on us, knowing full well that you're doing a complete 180 from your previous positions. Of course you KNEW everyone would be shocked and astonished. Of course you KNEW what kind of reaction you'd receive. Attempt at being open minded? Sorry, it comes across either as a) an attempt to get attention and cause drama or b) an attempt to rationalize this all in your own mind. You come here, spring this on us, and when we get upset, then you can say, "See, they are obviously hysterical and not open minded, so it's totally okay that I'm thinking what I'm thinking."

Whatever.

ETA: whatever people do away from this forum (ie: landhermie) is their own business and is not pertinent to this discussion.

I have been defeated by the Queen and her minions,

I have to say, I'm very, very proud to counted among the minions. This is a forum that actually stands for something and doesn't waffle. To me, that's a wonderful thing to be a part of. Anyone can waffle - it takes true strength to stay true to an ideal and work towards making the ideal real.

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Yes, I remember you listing the other forums and telling the members with access to the private forum not to post on them, and let them die.

Yes, we don't promote the other forums here. That's a public fact and policy. Has been for a very long time. No secret there.

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Several people said that domestic animals should be eliminated

Just where do you get off quoting people out context? That is NOT what was said.

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

I could go to a white power forum and see the same thing, just on a separate topic. Its the same attitude - for some reason the ''truth'' has hit the community here and there is no other way.

You are now walking on very dangerous ground with me. You'd better explain yourself.

[Slap Maxwell]

I think you know what I mean. If I was a known in that type of community and suddenly posted I didn't think people of other races are "that" bad- I am going to get this reaction tone wise. People are going to tell me I am delusional, I am wrong, look at this fact and this and this. They can pull as many facts out of their rear as they want, it doesn't make it true.

Teresa you have done an excellent job of doing things in the "real" world, being active in actually changing things, and I do commend you for that.

I am not sure what to say at this point, I was wrong in starting this thread and stirring up happy land here.

[Susan9608]

They can pull as many facts out of their rear as they want, it doesn't make it true.

And the same can be said of your tales of happy land breeder-hood.

It is a fact that there are thousands of guinea pigs without homes.

It is a fact that some of those thousands of guinea pigs will be euthanized due to the lack of homes.

It is a fact that breeders breed more guinea pigs, despite the *fact* that there aren't enough homes for all the animals in existence.

So ... I guess it comes down to your interpretation of those facts, huh?

[smartorl]

I have avoided posting to cause any larger controversy but feel that I should. I do not think that things are always black and white. I don't think that there can be exact rules for right and wrong, I do think that rules are the ideals of the person making them.

If this forum chooses to take a particular stance, fine, that is their rules and they are entitled to observe those rules until they see fit to change them. If you don't agree with a particular forum's point of view, you can leave or stay and make sure that your opinion is heard.

I have been criticized and even mocked (not here that I am aware of) for frequenting "the breeder friendly site". If everyone deserts a site because they don't follow their exact views, who is left to get the message of responsibility across? I feel that I have made a difference.

I think it took alot of balls for Slap and Jen to post views that are not accepted, I don't know their motivation or agree with everything siad but I read what they had to say and it has been noted.

I used to breed, I saw alot of irresponsibility and I choose not to, I do rescue. Do to so much of an extremist all or nothing attitude with many rescuers, I have moved more into wildlife rehab. I feel there I can make a difference.

I understand the point behind not purchasing at pet shops, but as I have really dug deep into myself, the problem is much larger. Each and every person that owns a pet is part of the problem. We have bastardized (domesticated) animals all the way back in time for our own use and amusement. To say that it is ok to PURCHASE a fish from a store but not a guinea pig is ridiculous pshycology. WHat makes the life of a guinea pig more valued than that of a fish? Yes, people rescue, I hate to be the one to break the news but an animal going to a rescue is coming from somewhere and is now in a "slot", therefore it just created more demand from a pet shop or breeder, much like a person going into buy one. It is just an indirect method. Will I still rescue, you bet, until I die, but I am not so blinded by the anger and hostility to see that there is a larger picture. Educating people in the proper ways would go so much farther to bring relief to actual real live animals in this century, not laying the ground work for change 100 years from now.

I think any reference that attempts to compare the abolition of slavery to a pet is in bad taste regardless of the meaning. I do find it insulting.

Just my 2 cents.

[Susan9608]

To say that it is ok to PURCHASE a fish from a store but not a guinea pig is ridiculous pshycology

I've never said it was okay to purchase fish but not guinea pigs. In fact, I'm of the opinion that fish cannot truly be adequately provided for in a captive environment and thus are better left alone. I've never claimed it's okay to purchase any animal from a pet store, and many members here feel the same.

I think any reference that attempts to compare the abolition of slavery to a pet is in bad taste regardless of the meaning. I do find it insulting.

Please go re-read. As I have explained and explained, I never compared slavery in any capacity to non human animals. I said people were WRONG when they claimed slavery would never be abolished, so it makes sense to me that potentially people could be WRONG when they claim breeding will never end. I am truly curious to know why this is deemed in bad taste and is so offensive?

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

I think you know what I mean. If I was a known in that type of community and suddenly posted I didn't think people of other races are "that" bad- I am going to get this reaction tone wise. People are going to tell me I am delusional, I am wrong, look at this fact and this and this. They can pull as many facts out of their rear as they want, it doesn't make it true.

No, I'm still not sure what you mean or I wouldn't darn well ask. A white power forum? You are drawing an analogy of this animal welfare forum to a KKK-type racist forum and basically saying that our forum is no more fact-based than a skin-head, racist forum? Wow.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Teresa you have done an excellent job of doing things in the "real" world, being active in actually changing things, and I do commend you for that.

Please. I don't need your platitudes after all the insults.

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

I am not sure what to say at this point, I was wrong in starting this thread and stirring up happy land here.

No kidding. Like I said at the beginning, you may want to believe you don't belong over on the other forum, but they think the same way you do. That's where quite a few of your like-minded breeder buddies hang out.

[smartorl]

I understand but because people want this all or nothing little universe animals suffer NOW. Animals die NOW because it is easier to segregate into little capsules of people boycotting this and that. All the while innocent animals suffer. It would be much more beneficial to take a more middle of the road attitude, and try to at least meet somewhere in the middle and make a difference in the lives of animals in our lifetimes. People will always breed animals and themselves to excess, it sucks but it is life, willing it to change by passive aggressive boycott will do little quickly or at all.

Instead of boycotting pet stores and breeders selling to pet stores like it is the worst crime on earth, how about legislation to sterilize these animals prior to their delivery to the stores? How about working an angle that will help animals now? By clumping all breeders as irresponsible and saying that they are the problem does little to get them to want to make anything different. It is human nature. Again, everyone who owns a pet of any kind is part of the problem. To stop the problem at it's root, you would be better off boycotting all gp's as pets and let them all be killed because by taking them in, you are also indirectly supporting breeders. Why not try to work with breeders to educate and improve knowledge and conditions?

[kathrynj]

I want to know where the fish thing comes in?

[CavySpirit]

Originally Posted by smartorl

I think it took alot of balls for Slap and Jen to post views that are not accepted, I don't know their motivation or agree with everything siad but I read what they had to say and it has been noted.

Yes, stir up a bunch of crap they can't really support and then leave when called to task on supporting their statements. A lot of balls.

Originally Posted by smartorl

I think any reference that attempts to compare the abolition of slavery to a pet is in bad taste regardless of the meaning. I do find it insulting.

First of all, if someone really wants to do that, it is NOT in bad taste and I don't know who the taste police are. Secondly, that is NOT what was said. If you can't think and act like an adult, and grasp adult concepts, good grief. If you find that comment insulting, well I can't help it. I find it completely incredulous that the concept of what was said seems to go over people's heads. And there is NOTHING WRONG with talking about slavery in general!

[WEAVER]

Slap, let me begin by saying it is great to hear from you, and I hope that things have gotten better for you. I have thought about you often and hoped that you were ok.

I am still very active with guinea pigs, and spend quite a bit of time on the forum (althought NOT this one). I am very pro-rescue and devote a lot of time trying to help shelters and rescues across the US. I know that you also have done great things for the guinea pig communites and helped many of pigs that needed you. With that being said, I do to a point understand where you are going with your thread. I don't really know why you wrote it, maybe you just needed to vent, and for that I do understand. I know all too well how it feels to want to express how you feel and yet never say it, especially when it comes to this forum.

With that being said, I also believe the animal overpopulation is not because of breeders, it is so much larger than that. Even though I am very pro-rescue I also can appreciate a full bred animal. Growing up showing horses, I completely understand both sides of the fence sort of speak. I don't hate the breeders, nor do I think many of them are bad people. I know they may add to the overpopulation of animals, but pet stores, and irresponsible caregivers truly are where the real problem lays.

With that being said, I can also say that not all rescues are created equal as well. I guess in that way it is simuliar to the breeders. There are good ones, and bad ones. Anyone involved in rescue knows that to be true, as sad as it is.

I am done, and I do understand your point. I don't agree with everything, but I also can see where you are coming from. I am glad so see you, and please do take care of yourself.

[smartorl]

I was referring to the fact that IF their intentions were pure, it was not easy voicing an opinion that is not the popular one.

I am walking, breathing proof that a breeder can be rehabbed. I am absolutely sure I am not the only one. I am very glad that I was educated like a human being and not beat over the head. I am strong willed and if you try to make me do something, I won't. The realities were explained and opened my eyes to many things and my part in it all. I changed and so could others if the time was taken to educate and get on the level with them.

[kathrynj]

Slavery is a fact, it happened. If you want to get offended, then get offended at that concept.

I am still puzzled about the fish, noone I can see said buying fish was acceptable, I think it is one of the worst practices myself. Fish seem to be the most poorly kept of all petstore animals.
Boycotting petstores is a choice people make to avoid supporting cruelty. I make the same decisions with what food and other items I buy and from where I buy them.

Taking the middle road achieves nothing. I don't get that arguement smartorl.

[Susan9608]

Instead of boycotting pet stores and breeders selling to pet stores like it is the worst crime on earth, how about legislation to sterilize these animals prior to their delivery to the stores? How about working an angle that will help animals now?

A lot of us do do those things. But whether we do or not is no reason to stop trying to work towards the ideal. If everyone settled for the middle of the road, I shudder to think what life would be like.

[CavySpirit]

Jeez Weaver, wouldn't it have been nice if Slap came back with even a few posts of, hey nice to be back, before digging her heals in and intentionally stirring it up? But, hey thanks for jumping in.

I know they may add to the overpopulation of animals, but pet stores, and irresponsible caregivers truly are where the real problem lays.

Says you. It's just not that simple. No one said it's all the breeder's fault. It's a complex industry. But breeders and their little world share a good deal of the burden of the problem.