Change, an update

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

They don't breed every female that is birthed. One breeder in particular had a line of TSW Americans that had been in progress for about 12 years. You cannot show animals who are obviously sick. Their bone structure is felt, they need to be in good weight, have good teeth, good feet, a shiny, healthy coat, and some of the breeds are classed upon their liveliness.

None of these things would weed out bladder stones, OD, early stage cataracts, tumors, etc. My satin pig is the shiniest, most beautiful pig in the world. But on his bad days he hops. Not to mention that most show pigs are retired while they're very young. Again, before serious genetic issues show up.

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

As far as knowing about the genetic issues that happen to guinea pigs, of course they do. That is WHY they breed. To weed out these into an pig that is going to live long and healthy. The breeder with the TSW line showed me her seniors from her first 5 years working with them, they look wonderful. (No not 12 year old pigs, but 10 and 8 year olds, yes.)

You seem to be missing my point. She couldn't have known those pigs were going to be healthy when she started breeding them. You can't breed a 12 year old pig. You can't breed a 5 year old pig. It is not possible to identify these genetic issues in pigs at a young age, except for the most gross genetic deformities and abominable issues. There are random mutt pigs on GL that live to be between 8-10. Surely you don't suggest that backyard breeders and accidental pregnancies are bettering the breed?

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Those who I met don't breed anything until it has been shown. That way they reduce the number of what is deemed as "pet quality" pigs produced.

Again, taking pigs to a show is like picking from a beauty pagaent. Judges cannot see genetic flaws. Nor can breeders know them until they appear, at which time a pig can already have 6-7 generations of flawed young out and making babies of their own from their breeder buddies.

Again, I want to reiterate. When breeding after a certain age is risky to impossible due to physically problems on the part of the animal, and genetic problems only show up after that period, it is almost impossible to knowingly select to remove those genetic problems. (I say almost, because I assume with enough research in the future, DNA testing may be feasible. I know it isn't now, nor do I know of any breeder that wouldn't balk at spending that kind of money on their pigs, regardless of what they preach about "improving" guinea pigs).

[Susan9608]

There will always be breeders, of every species.

So defeatist. People used to say the same thing about slavery here in the US. "Oh, the US will always have slavery, but as long as it's controlled and the slaves are treated okay, then it's okay."

[Slap Maxwell]

Well, actually we still do have slavery. A Chinese man here in my city was just arrested the other day, he was forced to work in the back of an Asian restaurant for a few years. They just discovered him. No SS #, ID, nothing. I do like how you compare slaves to guinea pigs.

Jennicat- I am going to try to address everything you said.

Things like bladder stones and cataracts aren't always passed down genetically. They can occur in any animal. If something has come up genetically, it is not "bred out" - the line is ceased to stop pigs from being produced with those issues.

Satins are a mutation that generally have weak bones. There are different classes for satins. Shiny coats on a non-satin animal is one sign of health, as with dogs and horses.

Yes, you can't breed a 5 or 12 year old pig, those animals aren't kept for that purpose. They are there to asses the lines longevity after many years. There are pigs on GL living 8-10 years, but there are pigs living in 10 gallon aquariums eating no veggies that live that long too. Difference is the quality of life for them. I am sure very few of those pigs on GL have had absolutely no major health issues, genetic or otherwise.

They aren't being bred to live forever, but rather a much healthier lifespan that exceeds the "5-7" year life expectancy. You make it sound like every young animal is going to pop up with some horrid genetic issue. Not the case. Not every pig that a good breeder breeds is a sickly animal just because a breeder bred it.

I also agree a breeder isn't going to be paying a vet hundreds to do genetic testing on every animal. Having the monetary expenses would be wonderful though. I am sure most pet owners with 2-3 pigs still would have a hard time fitting that into their budget.

[Jennicat]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Things like bladder stones and cataracts aren't always passed down genetically. They can occur in any animal. If something has come up genetically, it is not "bred out" - the line is ceased to stop pigs from being produced with those issues.

They are not always genetic, correct. But bladder stones especially have a huge genetic component. Hence, why rescues can get in 8 year old pigs who've eaten nothing but spinach and mustard greens their whole lives and be hearty and hale, while other pigs can sometimes develop bladder stones quite young.

When you "cease production" on the line of a 3 year old pig, assuming that all of it's descendants had one litter at 6 months of age, with 3 babies each, that means that you have to find approximately 250 pigs, and assure that they're not breeding. And that's only if the first pig was the ONLY pig in that litter. A litter of 5 guinea pigs who had one of the siblings produce a bladder stone would require finding thousands of pigs.

You go further trying to track down every home, every person that had dumped a pig, every breeder that had then traded "stock" to another breeder, and it's virtually impossible to "stop" that line.

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Satins are a mutation that generally have weak bones. There are different classes for satins. Shiny coats on a non-satin animal is one sign of health, as with dogs and horses.

Satins are a shiny pig that have an accompanying genetic disorder known as osteodystrophy. It is also speculated that teddies and possibly texels may carry this genetic problem. (I may be remembering wrong, it was either one or both of them, so I'm putting both to be safe). Again, this doesn't show up until later on in the pig's age. So you cannot breed this out of their coat type. Furthermore, why would ANYONE breed a coat type that had such a genetic deformity associated with it?

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Yes, you can't breed a 5 or 12 year old pig, those animals aren't kept for that purpose. They are there to asses the lines longevity after many years. There are pigs on GL living 8-10 years, but there are pigs living in 10 gallon aquariums eating no veggies that live that long too. Difference is the quality of life for them. I am sure very few of those pigs on GL have had absolutely no major health issues, genetic or otherwise.

The GL pigs haven't produced 3 litters either, what's your point?

The breeder only has the old pigs left. How many of their siblings died at the age of 2-3? I can guarantee you that I can pick a random pool of 50 guinea pigs, and in 8-10 years, have some 8-10 year old pigs. It's physically impossible for a breeder to house all the pigs they've ever produced, so they have no idea what the mean age of the guinea pigs they're breeding are. They just know that they've managed to get some that live between 8-10 years of age.

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

I also agree a breeder isn't going to be paying a vet hundreds to do genetic testing on every animal.

Why not? "Responsible" dog and horse breeders do it. (And I say "responsible" in quotes as code for "as responsible as one can be while you're breeding an overpopulated animal".

If you're not willing to pay, then don't breed. Pets aren't cheap. Breeding animals shouldn't be cheaper than owning a pet.

[Jess Z]

Before these issues arrised I had respected you alot. Now that this has arrisen I don't trust you much anymore and I am disappointed. Pretty much everything has been said so I will just say what all of those before me have said. Breeding is never right and will never be right, as long as animals are bred, they are in pain. If these breeders are so "good" and if they have so many pigs that are "so well taken care of" do they have time to give there piggies floor time? Do they have enough time to trim nails? To completly disenfect the cages every week? To give cuddles? NO NO NO NO NO!

[LouisesPigguns]

Can I just ask, if breeders are anti rescue then surely that makes them the lowest form of breeder possible? How can they possibly be anti rescue? That is bizarre and something I cannot comprehend in the slightest.

I have heard many breeders say, well we are breeding to develop the pig itself, I've heard this said do many times about the Skinny and perhaps some mean well and do want the best but how many guineas are ending in pet stores because of backyard breeding? It won't be long before Skinnys and Baldwins are the norm for petshops. They are becoming increasingly popular in the UK and I get lots of messages asking where can people buy them. I refuse to comment of course.

As for getting demoted on here, well I don't care about that. I like to read these boards, out of the few guinea forums I post on this is the most serious of the lot and extremely helpful and cover topics that perhaps aren't covered elsewhere. I received a wheek warning for putting my name in a posting when I didn't read the rules (too busy playing with my pigs for that!) But now I have read them I'm happy to be here, happy to read comments and hope that debate can occur without a slanging match.

[QuackXP]

What if one of the users here had the power to snap their fingers and stop any person from ever breeding guinea pigs ever again? Everyone would be happy right?

Wrong! In about 7-10 years (assuming no GP age records are broken) there would be no more pigs.

Backyard breeders are defiantly bad, people who breed for show, while they have what they believe is good intentions I have yet to see any show of any species, human included that was not majority based around external looks. I submit as proof: Miss Teen USA SC

I personally believe that U.S. [sic] Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some people out there in our nation don’t have maps, and, uh, I believe that our education like such as in South Africa and, uh, the Iraq everywhere like, such as and I believe that they should, our education over here in the US should help the US, er, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future for our children.

If you have lived under a rock and don’t know what this quote is about, Google is your friend.

Bet seeing as our nation is built around being beautiful and making lots of money I bet the majority of breeders are not in the best interest of the guinea pigs, but if you take a black and white stance it’s all or nothing, uou have to take the good with the bad. Mitigating the bad is what I believe is the true focus of organizations like this even if some of the membership can’t see past black and white.

[Susan9608]

Wrong! In about 7-10 years (assuming no GP age records are broken) there would be no more pigs.

That would be okay with me. I'd be glad for there to be no more pigs, period, if it meant no more pigs were being bred, dumped, and neglected. Guinea pigs are inherently different from some other animals commonly held as pets, like cats and dogs. Guinea pigs are generally pretty indifferent to the human beings in their lives; if given the choice, I doubt most guinea pigs would choose to interact with people (as opposed to a dog or cat.) So I'm okay with the idea of there not being any more guinea pigs if breeding was stopped; I hate to think of any animal purposely being bred so that people can keep it in a cage.

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

There will always be breeders, of every species.

Says who?

What gives these people the right to create life when there are so many lives waiting for homes, or being killed because no one wants them?

Originally Posted by QuackXP

What if one of the users here had the power to snap their fingers and stop any person from ever breeding guinea pigs ever again? Everyone would be happy right?

Wrong! In about 7-10 years (assuming no GP age records are broken) there would be no more pigs.

That would be excellent It would take a lot longer than that of course due to accidental pregnancies as spays and neuters are too risky in my opinion to be routine.

[Slap Maxwell]

Jessz57 - better hide! I will come and steal money out of your purse and put bleach in your potted plants! Now that I don't think breeders are totally evil I am wretched and untrustworthy!

Can I ask you if you would like breeding of all animals- every species to be stopped, completely ceased? Then there would be no more domestic animals within a couple decades. Doesn't make much sense to me, sorry.

Jennicat, dog and horse breeding is MUCH bigger investment and people have as lot of choices when it comes to a stud. You won't be getting any animals sold without genetic testing on your Quarter Horses or German Shepherds. Just because someone breeds, and I repeat myself again, does not mean they breed every female they get a hold of. Females have 1 litter, 2 at most. It is unlikely with careful watch of the current descendants and who they are bred to that no major defect is going to crop up.

Teddies, texels, skinnies, abbys, are all mutations, some are stronger than others. I didn't meet anyone who breed texels or teddies. Americans, peruvians, silkies, and abbies were the bulk.

Of course they don't keep everything they have produced, with even a large amount of room that is a lot of the same gene pool. I'd say about 15 senior pigs were from the TSW line that has produced 2 litters a year over the last 10 years considering the oldest was 10.. youngest was 6 in that line, (or 7 can't remember) So lets say 9 pups a year (being generous) for 5 years, gives you 45 animals. So 33% of the animals are still alive, and with her goal of 40% of the pups kept for evaluation, she lost two or three over that course of time and they were necropsied. I've got what they passed from written down, off the top of my head one died from an inner ear infection, one from pneumonia, can't remember the other one, can't find my notebook. The numbers are slightly off since she probably had less pups in a year and I am unsure if it was 15, but it was close to that area (could be 13 or 17)

Kind of sad to see so many people who love guinea pigs want them to go extinct. How about dogs and horses? We have machines for their jobs now, right?

[Fluffy_Guinea]

Wow I'm shocked right now...alright I'm going to add my two cents. To me it doesn't matter if they take great care of they're pigs which is good but they are still contributing to the overpopulation problem. They could serve their pigs veggies on a golden platter and I still would not support it. Ok you don't support it but still to me every breeder is horrible maybe not the person but what they are doing is horrible. When a breeder breeds and sells the offspring what is that doing? It's taking away a home from a shelter animal.

A 10 or 12 year old child breeder doesn't have the mental capacity to "asses" their animals past anything but markings and temperament. I saw a few of these and wonder what the parents are thinking.

Alright you made me mad right when you said that a 10 or 12 year old child does not have the mental capacity to care only about their animal's markings and temperament. Wow...are you suggesting a 10 or 12 child can't care about in animal they can't love their animal? That has to be the farthest thing from the truth. I don't think your saying that but it sure looks like it.


Now what I was trying to say is no matter how great they treat their animals they are still breeding which is taking away homes from homeless animals.

[Slap Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Fluffy_Guinea

Wow...are you suggesting a 10 or 12 child can't care about in animal they can't love their animal? That has to be the farthest thing from the truth. I don't think your saying that but it sure looks like it.

Now what I was trying to say is no matter how great they treat their animals they are still breeding which is taking away homes from homeless animals.

Err.. no. That is pretty off base. I am saying a child doesn't have the capacity to asses conformation, coat color/density, bone structure, etc. Or what boar would compliment a particular sow's weaknesses.

Its not them that is taking away from the homeless animals. There are people who don't do their research first, they go to a breeder/pet store instead of a shelter or rescue. The breeder's pig isn't being forced upon them as the only option.

I look forward to all the questions and shocked attitudes later.. time to go grocery shopping.

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by Slap Maxwell

Can I ask you if you would like breeding of all animals- every species to be stopped, completely ceased? Then there would be no more domestic animals within a couple decades. Doesn't make much sense to me, sorry.

Why? Because the selfish wants of the human species should come before all other life on this planet?

[Slap Maxwell]

Originally Posted by thalestral

Why? Because the selfish wants of the human species should come before all other life on this planet?

Don't ask me, ask the members who feel that guinea pigs should go extinct!

[VoodooJoint]

You know I like you Slap, right? I've thought about you a lot since you've gone missing. That said I have a few things that you may need to think about if you are going to subscribe to your new views.

-I can't remember anywhere on this forum where it was said that all breeders are monsters. I know that I have stated again and again that they aren't but what they do is morally reprehensible most of the time.

Do these "good" breeders

-spay/neuter all unshowable culls?
-sell at shows?
-only breed when they have a waiting list of homes for the animals they cannot/will not keep?
-do genetic testing on all their animals before breeding?
-have pedigrees for all breeding animals that go back at least 7 generations and have full knowledge of the animals in that line's health and longevity?
-breed any varieties know for having inherent genetic disorders directly related to their specific breed (satins, teddies, skinnies...)
-screen all homes thoroughly before placing/selling an animal to it and checking up on the conditions occasionally?
-Do they know where all of the animals they have produced are?
-do they donate heavily to rescues/shelters and do their part to actively rescue (without mixing their breeding with rescue work)?
-do they speak out about animal overpopulation to get people to adopt over buy?
-do they boycott petstores and encourage others to do the same?
-do they turn in fellow "enthusiasts" that are being unkind/neglectful to their animals?

There are a lot of requirements to being a "good", "responsible" breeder. So far, with Guinea Pigs, I have never come across a breeder that fits all of the requirements they need to make to their animals. I have seen beautiful caviaries run by loving and care responsible people but they fall far short of truly being responsible when it comes to rehoming/selling animals. I have seen the "good" breeders rubbing elbows with abusive/neglectful breeders and never saying a word to ANYONE about the terrible conditions they know exist. In short, no matter how lovely they are or how wonderfully they care for their animals--and I fully expect they should be wonderful and caring so they get no congrats from me for doing what they are supposed to do--they still do not do enough to earn any respect from me.

[Susan9608]

Well, actually we still do have slavery.

<sigh> I suppose I should have specified that as far as I'm aware, slavery is now illegal in the United States. Perhaps there are circumstances where it is still a problem, but if the perpetrators are caught, there are legal ramifications in plan.

I do like how you compare slaves to guinea pigs.

I didn't say anything about slavery being the same as or comparable to guinea pigs. What I said was that people used to say that slavery would always exist, the same way you're claiming that breeders will always exist. My point was that those people claiming slavery (*ahem* legalized slavery) were wrong. The people who claimed that women would never have the right to vote were wrong. The people who claimed that legally using child labor would always be a practice were wrong. So there is the potential that YOU are also wrong in that breeding will always exist.

There are a lot of people working to end the practice of breeding guinea pigs; I believe one day they'll prevail.

Kind of sad to see so many people who love guinea pigs want them to go extinct.

I think it's sadder to see people who claim they love guinea pigs be willing to cause them any suffering or harm for their own selfish purposes. It's love for and respect for the animals themselves that lets me be okay with the idea of them "dying out"; at least then they won't be pawns for human amusement anymore.

I think there are differences between animals that choose the company and companionship of human beings (like dogs and cats, and I understand, a few other species of animals) and animals that have to live in a cage in order to be compatible with the life style of a human being. I see nothing wrong with caged animals dying out; I don't think it's good or fair to continue breeding them just so we can keep them in a cage. Quite frankly, if it meant that not another cat or dog had to suffer any pain or neglect, then I could probably get behind the dying out of the domestic dog and cat as well. However, with cats and dogs, I believe that they often get much out of their relationships with people and that the relationships can be mutually beneficial beyond that of human feeding pet.

[Fluffy_Guinea]

Err.. no. That is pretty off base. I am saying a child doesn't have the capacity to asses conformation, coat color/density, bone structure, etc. Or what boar would compliment a particular sow's weaknesses

Sorry I thought you meant something like that I just got angry sorry for jumping conclusions. Oh but still think children can asses that if they learn about it. But I'm not going to start a debate on this as this is not the topic.

Its not them that is taking away from the homeless animals. There are people who don't do their research first, they go to a breeder/pet store instead of a shelter or rescue. The breeder's pig isn't being forced upon them as the only option.

Wow let me ask you this why are there so many homeless pigs? There are so many because breeders are continue to breed even when there are thousands of homeless perfectly adorable pigs in shelters! Yes it is partly the person who didn't research's fault. Breeders contiue to breed and you know what doesn't make since to me? That some actually tell you to go to rescues while contributing to the problem at the same time. Basically I do not support breeders or petstores and never will. Again I will repeat what I said.

To me it doesn't matter if they take great care of they're pigs which is good but they are still contributing to the overpopulation problem. They could serve their pigs veggies on a golden platter and I still would not support it

[thalestral]

If you are anti-breeding then the logical conclusion is to be pro-extinction of domesticated animals. Not bringing animals into existence is for their benefit, not ours.

[HowietheGreat]

-I remember you, was happy to see you had returned, and now am in shock.

"I do like how you compare slaves to guinea pigs. "

Susan was comparing a principle-that of a defeatist attitude. It was not a parallel comparison. Vj is a 100% correct. Have you seen all of the these assests in place at the shows you have attended?

[Susan9608]

The breeder's pig isn't being forced upon them as the only option.

*laughs*

The problem is that the rescue pig is not the ONLY option. Don't you see that? When there are perfectly good animals out there dying for lack of good homes, why should anyone WANT to create more, especially if they claim to love guinea pigs so much? That is what doesn't make sense.