Is Free Range Poultry really the kinder option?

[Susan9608]

I know exactly what I've written on this forum about personal purity vs. effective advocacy.

I don't know how to comment on the idea of slaughtering your own animals for food. I suppose that's better than having someone else do it for you ... which is why I said, "good for you."

I think the idea of "cruelty free meat" industries here in America are a joke. Free range and such are labels that don't mean anything ... they aren't regulated by any agency; there's no force behind them, which is what this thread is all about.

I think it's time to get this thread back on topic.

[Stephanae]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

I know exactly what I've written on this forum about personal purity vs. effective advocacy.

I apologize. I went back myself and thorougly read the linked articles on personal purity vs. effective advocacy. What I originally skimmed as an effective approach to communication, I now see as a whole lot of fanatical crap, but you're absolutely right that it's contrary to my believing I (or anyone else) can be any kind of effective advocate without being a vegan. Vegans are the only true activists. Yep.

My favorite quote is this one: "Remember That All Pro-Meat Arguments Are Rationalizations." I mean, obviously, anyone who disagrees with vegans is only rationalizing. How could I ever have thought differently?

Originally Posted by Susan9608

I don't know how to comment on the idea of slaughtering your own animals for food. I suppose that's better than having someone else do it for you ... which is why I said, "good for you."

Of course you don't know how to comment on it. You still don't understand or want to understand that for me causing death is natural but for humans to cause pain and suffering is cruelty. And why would you want to? For you, causing death is cruelty, and I don't agree with you; therefore, I'm only rationalizing.

Originally Posted by Susan9608

I think the idea of "cruelty free meat" industries here in America are a joke. Free range and such are labels that don't mean anything ... they aren't regulated by any agency; there's no force behind them, which is what this thread is all about.

Originally Posted by Stephanae

Free range is nothing but a joke in the U.S. It means nothing.

This just makes me laugh. Laugh and laugh. But you'd rather focus on our differences. Fine. Absolutely! Effective advocacy, indeed!

Originally Posted by Susan9608

I think it's time to get this thread back on topic.

By all means. After all, TrekkiePiggies's original point was that there's no humane way to use animals, which fits directly in with your point of view. We wouldn't want anyone to post anything that doesn't fit in with your point of view. We wouldn't want anyone to "rationalize." Why do we allow anyone but vegans on this forum, anyway?

And on the other hand, by all means! Please proceed to get back on topic; I'm tired of being attacked because I don't believe what you do.

[kathrynj]

Originally Posted by Stephanae

Of course you don't know how to comment on it. You still don't understand or want to understand that for me causing death is natural but for humans to cause pain and suffering is cruelty. And why would you want to? For you, causing death is cruelty, and I don't agree with you; therefore, I'm only rationalizing.

You causing death is NATURAL?

Hmmmm. I don't understand, and furthermore I don't really think I ever will. Why oh why are you on this forum which is PRO VEGETARIAN and be trying to make us, 'understand' why you kill and eat meat? Seems that you are trying to justify your actions.

[Stephanae]

Originally Posted by kathrynj

You causing death is NATURAL?

Hmmmm. I don't understand, and furthermore I don't really think I ever will. Why oh why are you on this forum which is PRO VEGETARIAN and be trying to make us, 'understand' why you kill and eat meat? Seems that you are trying to justify your actions.

Yes, exactly, why oh why is anyone on this forum who is not her/himself VEGAN. After all, if I'm not vegan, I couldn't possibly respect anyone who is. And anyone who is vegan can't understand and respect me or any other meat eater or vegetarian. And I'm only rationalizing and trying to justify my actions. And the only true activists/advocates are vegans. The rest of us should just give up if we can't convert to veganism.

[Ly&Pigs]

Originally Posted by Stephanae

Yes, exactly, why oh why is anyone on this forum who is not themselves VEGAN. After all, if I'm not vegan, I couldn't possibly respect anyone who is. And anyone who is vegan can't understand and respect me or any other meat eater or vegetarian. And I'm only rationalizing and trying to justify my actions.

There are many people on this board who aren't vegetarian/vegan. I am not but I still have the respect of the majority of members. I have high respect for those that are vegetarian and vegan and I have respect for those that aren't.

This board does promote vegetarianism and veganism but it does not turn away "meat" eaters just because they eat meat. We do have a vegetarian forum for those who want to learn more about that lifestyle but we don't force people to become vegetarians or vegans.

I have cut down on eating meat and maybe one day will take the full leap but when I am ready. But to my knowledge, I haven't lost the respect of others on this board for my decisions.

[Stephanae]

Originally Posted by Ly&Pigs

There are many people on this board who aren't vegetarian/vegan. I am not but I still have the respect of the majority of members. I have high respect for those that are vegetarian and vegan and I have respect for those that aren't.

Thanks for responding, Ly. I'm aware that there are other meat eaters here. I have respect for all of these choices, too. I don't think I've ever expressed otherwise.

Originally Posted by Ly&Pigs

I have cut down on eating meat and maybe one day will take the full leap but when I am ready. But to my knowledge, I haven't lost the respect of others on this board for my decisions.

Have you not lost their respect, perhaps, because you seem to acknowledge the ultimate moral superiority of vegans but haven't taken "the full leap" yet out of weakness, because you're not ready? If you, as I have, stated that you ate meat for a reason and didn't ever plan to change, would you still have their respect? And if other meat eaters here who don't plan to change can't have any respect and should just leave, what next? How are vegetarians very much less morally superior? Are they next?

I have a lot of respect for choosing to be vegan. I have no respect for thinking that you're morally superior because you've chosen to be vegan, and absolutely everyone else is "rationalizing" and couldn't possibly have any honest reason for her choices.

[steve_and_pigs]

Stephanae,

I'm not vegan or vegetarian. I do try and make choices that are good for animals an the planet. I think everyone participating in this thread is the same in that regard.

I don't think it is hypocritical to say that you care for animals, but you will kill them for food. Someone that makes an effort to minimize the suffering of an animal that he is going to eat is choosing a course of action that is consistent with caring for animals. He could also choose not to kill the animal. That would be consistent as well. Both actions are reducing the suffering the animal experiences. The first in part, the latter entirely. To kill the animal without regard for its suffering would be hypocritical, as it is in complete disregard for the proposed value.

There is a valid point that doing any harm to the animal is inconsistent with the proposed value, but in reality, we all have many values to consider, some of which may conflict, and we need to reconcile them by making compromises and choosing actions that we think are reasonable. We also all have varying priorities, and finite capacities.

I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to communicate. I think you are stating a lot of the "what", but not a lot of the "why". I've collected a few of your statements that I think contextually stand on their own. If you could elaborate on these statements with your reasons for them, and on how they relate to your choice to eat animals, I would find that helpful.

It's just that, for me, it's just as important that things that feel emotions/pain die as it is that things that don't feel die

I value the importance of death and of nature's order that all life is sustained by other life.

I have chosen to eat meat, because for me, gratitude for the natural order that all life is sustained by other life and that death is also important is a good lesson

eating limited amounts of meat is sacred ritual to me

[Stephanae]

Stephenlawrence,

I appreciate very, very much that you are trying to understand what I'm saying. I also appreciate this supportive statement:

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

I don't think it is hypocritical to say that you care for animals, but you will kill them for food. Someone that makes an effort to minimize the suffering of an animal that he is going to eat is choosing a course of action that is consistent with caring for animals. He could also choose not to kill the animal. That would be consistent as well. Both actions are reducing the suffering the animal experiences. The first in part, the latter entirely. To kill the animal without regard for its suffering would be hypocritical, as it is in complete disregard for the proposed value.

However, this is what I can't agree with:

Originally Posted by stephenlawrence

There is a valid point that doing any harm to the animal is inconsistent with the proposed value . . .

This presupposes that causing death is causing harm. And that's the thing that I've tried repeatedly to state that I do not believe. I do not believe that causing death is causing harm. I believe that death is good.

You go on to ask me about the why behind some of my statements, but the statements you quote were already explaining the why to the best of my ability. I cannot venture into more of the why without treading on forbidden religious territory (I'm not even sure I didn't cross that line already in the statement about "sacred ritual.") And even if I did try to explain these statements in my spiritual context, I don't really think it would help.

So instead, I'm going to turn the tables, and I'm sorry if you feel attacked because I really do appreciate what you said very, very much and don't want to attack you, but what are your reasons for eating meat? Are you a vegan in incubation? Do you recognize the moral superiority of their position but you have "many values to consider, some of which . . . conflict, and [you] need to reconcile them by making compromises?" Or do you actually value your own moral position on eating meat?

Please, by all means, to all meat eaters on this forum: Do you have actual moral reasons for eating meat?

How about you vegetarians? Why do you think it's okay to continue to use some animal products?

I'm the only person here who's bothered to try and explain that I have reasons for eating meat that make some kind of moral sense to me, at least. What about the rest of you? Is silence the easier route because it lets you keep the respect of the vegans here? Do you all believe that vegans are right, and some day you'll be a vegan, when only you have the strength? Do any of you have reasons for your positions that don't involve being too weak to be a vegan? Does the forum consist only of vegans and vegan wannabes or are there non-vegans out there who actually believe in what they eat?

If you do believe in what you eat, my sense is that there are even some vegans on this forum who will respect what you believe, even if it's not what they believe, just as you respect what they believe even though you feel differently. I still have to believe that mutual respect is a possibility.

[kathrynj]

Originally Posted by Stephanae

This presupposes that causing death is causing harm. And that's the thing that I've tried repeatedly to state that I do not believe. I do not believe that causing death is causing harm. I believe that death is good.

Hang about, causing death is NOT causing harm? Isn't something DEAD at the end of it?

Death is GOOD?

What are you on about, respecting vegans and vegetarians and all that rubbish, that is not what this is about, and I am offended that you think my opinions are based purely on this, being vegan or vegetarian. Who are you to say what I respect and what I dont?

If you do believe in what you eat, my sense is that there are even some vegans on this forum who will respect what you believe, even if it's not what they believe, just as you respect what they believe even though you feel differently. I still have to believe that mutual respect is a possibility.

What I eat is based on what I believe, not about who respects my opinion or choices about what to eat. I go to sleep at night with a clear concience.

I have a lot of respect for choosing to be vegan. I have no respect for thinking that you're morally superior because you've chosen to be vegan, and absolutely everyone else is "rationalizing" and couldn't possibly have any honest reason for her choices.

I don't care if you or anyone respects my food choices, and I don't get where being 'morally superior' enters the picture. I am where I am based on what I know and have learnt and what I have done with that information. The reason for my choices are 'honest' and I dont claim or suggest anyone has moral superiourity because of where they are on the journey.

I remain puzzled at your intentions in these threads, what is the outcome you are wanting? For people who you are aiming this at, the vegans and vegetarians to say , oh you know what? You are RIGHT, I will start eating meat again and think about the lives of my food and making sure they are not cruelly treated, up untill the point of DEATH.

[thalestral]

Originally Posted by Stephanae

I apologize. I went back myself and thorougly read the linked articles on personal purity vs. effective advocacy. What I originally skimmed as an effective approach to communication, I now see as a whole lot of fanatical crap, but you're absolutely right that it's contrary to my believing I (or anyone else) can be any kind of effective advocate without being a vegan. Vegans are the only true activists. Yep.

Y'know I was all for respecting your views up until now, I even found them quite interesting

[hydrohoki]

Ok just to answer a few questions.

I think Steph means and I could be wrong, that it isn't that death doesn't harm but it serves a purpose. I think she's trying to say that if it's part of the circle of life than she can be ok with it but she wants it to be done in the most pain free way possible?

I eat meat and I do love animals. I don't see that as hypocritical. I do not justify eat meat for moral reasons. For me, it's medical.

[Char-x]

Stephanea - Thanks for trying to explain you're point to me politely. I see what you are trying to say, I don't agree that death is good by any means but I will respect that oppinion since you seem determined to stick to it.

Hydrohoki - Although I understand it is possible to eat meat and love animals, since I have been a meat eater until I was fourteen (I think), although I was trying to persuade my mum to let me before hand . I just knew though that until I became a vegetarian I couldn't actually say I loved all animals, because personally I felt a hypocrite saying it. It's the same with my friends though who own hamsters and rabbits and then go on to use Herbal Essences or something. I don't know, I don't get it all really but I know I am happier with the whole being a lover of animals when I know I don't consume any. Of course I'm not attacking the fact you eat meat especially if you have a medical condition.

I know someone on here said that if people can't kill their own meat they shouldnt eat it. I really agree. It annoyed me when I first became veggie with my mum and I can admit I did want to push my views on her abit too much and she would say "If I had to kill it, I wouldnt eat meat" that did just make me more annoyed because to me its more ignorent. I don't really see meat as nature though. Fair enough we have "canine teeth" (is that what they are called?) but I personally couldnt hunt and eat a deer with my own bare hands. Humans need weapons and knives to eat their meat - I've never seen a wild animal who truely needs meat use these, they were born and developed the teeth, the claws the speed etc We did not. We have big flat molars at the back to chew vegetation and the so called canine teeth look more like those of our vegetarian cousins the gorrila - who use them to tear at touch fruit skins etc. To me I truely believe humans are natually meant for a vegetarian diet, but of course the ancestors had to go to meat.

I will stop rambling now!

[Stephanae]

[quote=kathrynj;347887]What are you on about, respecting vegans and vegetarians and all that rubbish, that is not what this is about, and I am offended that you think my opinions are based purely on this, being vegan or vegetarian. Who are you to say what I respect and what I dont?/[quote]

When did I try to tell you what you base your opinions on or even what you should base your opinions on? I only told you what I base mine on.

Originally Posted by kathrynj

What I eat is based on what I believe, not about who respects my opinion or choices about what to eat. I go to sleep at night with a clear concience.

Very cool. The only thing I've been saying is that what I eat is also based on what I believe. I also go to sleep at night with a clear conscience.

Originally Posted by kathrynj

I don't care if you or anyone respects my food choices, and I don't get where being 'morally superior' enters the picture. I am where I am based on what I know and have learnt and what I have done with that information. The reason for my choices are 'honest' and I dont claim or suggest anyone has moral superiourity because of where they are on the journey.

The same is true for me. As for where being morally superior enters the picture, this is the message I have received from (and I'm going to go ahead and name names, because the vast majority of people on this thread have been very polite) Susan9608:

If I eat meat because I feel I have a valid moral reason, I am a hypocrite and a liar. No one who is not a vegan or at least thinks they ought to eventually be a vegan when they become strong enough could possibly have any reason for their choice that is not a rationalization. All pro-meat arguments are rationalizations. Everyone who disagrees with vegans is a liar. What's more, I can't possibly do anything that really matters in the arena of animal welfare activism if I believe in consuming or using animals at all. I might as well give up. If I have no interest in ever becoming a vegan, I might as well go ahead and shop at Petco, because it's convenient and the only thing I am doing is trying to justify whatever is most convenient for me, anyway. I might as well become a breeder. I might as well wear fur imported from China.

Is that the message of this forum? If you're not a vegan and you have actual reasons for not being one other than that you simply haven't achieved enlightenment yet, you might as well not do anything to alleviate animal suffering? Is that message effective advocacy? Is that what you really wanted to say to me, Susan?

Originally Posted by kathrynj

I remain puzzled at your intentions in these threads, what is the outcome you are wanting? For people who you are aiming this at, the vegans and vegetarians to say , oh you know what? You are RIGHT, I will start eating meat again and think about the lives of my food and making sure they are not cruelly treated, up untill the point of DEATH.

Since you ask me, what I wanted was for people to say: wow your beliefs are different (or weird or strange or whatever) but it's okay with me that you believe them. I certainly don't choose to believe that way, but hey, let's go do what we can to alleviate animals suffering together, anyway.

What I did not want was to be called a hypocrite because my beliefs couldn't possibly be anything other than rationalizations. I didn't want to be told my beliefs were rubbish, either. I don't know what you eat, but I'm sure your beliefs aren't rubbish.