on the evils of petstores...

[rabbitsncavyluv]

Petco and Petsmart like having rescuers at their stories because it brings in customers and revenue. Many rescues refuse to do adoption days there because they have an awful history with the humane community and still sell animals. When they stop selling animals and buying from pet mills, then that would be much better.

Originally Posted by Rocinante

Everyone in the NY area:

The Petco in Waterford, CT is going to display adoptable guinea pigs this Saturday. It is only an hour and a half from the NYC metro area. Just look in petfinder.com and click on some of the pet shelter links. That is how I found the information. Is anyone going there to take a look?

[AngelsCavies]

wow Cavyspirit. Your sermon is really good and understandable. I am going to build my neice Samantha a 2x3 or a 2x4 cage for one piggie that I am gonna try to rescue at our local human society. She doesnt know that I am building a cage and getting her a pig. Her mom knows and she knows to be the main caregiver but my neice will do the cleaning feeding, giving veggies and water. She will be 10 in March. I never knew that there really was piggies in a rescue shelter until I signed up on your site back in August. I will from now on rescue instead of buying.

[John4216]

I appreciate your dedication and dont take it personal. Petland is a large chain that sells dogs/cats btw. I dont think you went to the thread I posted before as you seem to have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I have been an activitist for many years for various things with my last activity taking 8 years to get the change needed. I dont give up nor do I suggest others do. What I am trying to say is that the approach that would work quickest/best is one where people approach it from the business perspective of the pet chains. If it is made to be profitable for them to do it the "right" way then they will. I know that a C&C cage can be made larger and cheaper than the store bought ones so this is one thing that could be used...like I said I really dont want to go over it again so scroll back and look at what I posted on a previous thread of an example of what I mean. Rescue piggies are the best to get but it is, to me anyway, a sick kind of logic to say dont buy the ones that are suffering in a store but its ok when they have suffered and become a rescue piggie. Sacrificing these animals "because it supports the breeders" just doesnt sit well with me. Getting the stores to properly do things including using only proper breeders/rescues is a way to go. My way is not the only way but it is a way that (through many years of mediations/arbitrations, negotiations etc) usually works the best for all sides in the manner and in the quickest amount of time. I would ask that you go back and read the post I made in the other thread and then provide feedback to me because I just posted a short blurb here. I could explain an exact way that would work in more detail than what I posted in another thread if it would help you to understand what I am saying. Over 30 years ago as a child I had a piggie and the way they are sold/treated is no different today than when I was a child..I am an impatient person when I throw myself into a cause (if you count taking 8 years to effect a change impatient) and 30 years is way way to long for me. This is what I do, I just have never applied myself to animal issues rather I have stuck mainly with issues involving children, women, and labor. And yes I do understand how the breeding/breeders work and also the economics behind it. And because I understand I wrote what I did in the other thread and how rescue places could work with/monitor/train the stores and the stores/chains would do the "right" things because it would be financially beneficial for them both in sales and in PR.
I hate to say this but most (not all) large businesses have little to no regard for anything but the profit margin. This is why there was no such thing as 40 hours weeks, overtime pay, child labor laws, health insurance, pensions, etc etc because it was all about the bottom line for the companies and this does not change over time. Large chain petstores are the same. You want to see them change things quickly (say 1-3years) then make it appeal to their profit margin and they will jump through hoops for you s long as it is cost efficient. The sad thing is I have not heard of any organization approaching these chains on a non-threatening basis and showing them the figures and how it would benefit them to do it the right way. I think this is because there is not set agreement to what is the right way possibly. I know I have set down and done some very rough figures with the cage I made first and then talking to the person about what they pay for coroplast wholesale and such and I know that C&C cages could be done for a lot less than those terrible little ones they sell...just this alone would improve the lives of the animals if they all got larger homes because A)its the right thing to do and B)the cage is cheaper so the consumers buy it because of A or B or both. There is a lot more that could go along with this...along with the example in the other thread I would add that the a 501(c)(3) rescue place would benefit as the chains could donate more than just financial aid but also services/goods which would also benefit the chains as it would be a tax write off and help both sides...
Here is the thread I posted to earlier with the basic idea of what I mean.
http://cavycages.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3401&page=3

Please read that along with this and then comment. I agree that sites like this one are wonderful and extremely beneficial but the point I was making is that just in and of itself it is not enough. Information/awareness is often not enough to facilitate change be it in an individual or organizations. I look at Walmart for an example of this and how public awareness of its poor record/treatment of workers conflicts with the consumers want for cheap goods. Another example is a person that smokes. Most people that smoke know its very harmful to them and others. Yet even knowing it is harmful to themselves they often continue anyway. Awareness is a key first step but it is not frequently enough to facilitate the change that is needed. I am saying that if you want to see the changes in the pet chainstores rather quickly than the path of appealing making your interests theirs and showing them how it makes them more profit to do it the "right" way is the best path of them all because both sides feel good about it and feel they really accomplished/won what they set out to do and they do

Lastly my point about buying from a petstore was where I used myself as an example. Many many people buy from a petstore and afterwards (if they care about their pets lives and not all do) they find a place like this that informs them of the mistake in doing so. But this is after the pets have already been bought and only those people that care enough to find sites like these. I think these sites are wonderful and do a great service but it is often after that fact. After the fact is a little late as the sale has been made. I am suggesting that intervention before the sale is made is the way to go. Anyways I am rambling again and appreciate your passion and efforts you have described putting in over the years in regards to this issue. I very much appreciate someone who has the passion and fire to do these kind of things and even if I may not agree with the smaller details, I do agree with the overall goal and am grateful that there are people who are willing to do this and respond with passion to this issue. If you would like I can explain in a more detailed manner that is not taking up space on these forums exactly how it would look/go from the basic example I posted on the thread and here.

[CavySpirit]

John, I did read your post and know exactly what you are talking about. I whole-heartedly agree with your approach, and like I said I've gone down that path. Big time. I will go down it again.

I'm already starting a new organization for that express purpose. I've already started the incorporation process, the first step towards 501c3. It's going to be called SPARC (Small Pet Adoption and Rescue Coalition). There is a forum started--which I'm not yet ready to make public. It's purpose will be to SPARC change and work with pet stores to educate consumers and get pet stores aligned with doing things the right way.

A few years ago, a very dedicated group of people in my area started "Pet Store Partners" with a similar goal. We had many organized meetings. Did a ton of research on the markets--which I still have.

I was instrumental in getting SB1357 passed in California a couple of years ago. CA is the first state that now requires pet stores to hand out care sheets with the sale of every animal and fish.

Believe me, I know the industry. I know how to effect change.

I'm also starting another organization (if I can mantain the energy) which I'm not ready to talk about but should be very interesting.

Changing the organizations in ways that you've outlined is going to take more than one person's efforts. That's where I hope these new organizations will come into play. And I hope to leverage the people here and everywhere on the net who are interested in helping make some changes.

[CavySpirit]

Rescue piggies are the best to get but it is, to me anyway, a sick kind of logic to say dont buy the ones that are suffering in a store but its ok when they have suffered and become a rescue piggie. Sacrificing these animals "because it supports the breeders" just doesnt sit well with me.

I don't know too many more ways to say it. I'm not saying 'sacrifice these animals because it supports breeders.' That's pretty twisted. I'm saying, you have a CHOICE. ADOPT an animal and save two lives and help support the rescue and shelter efforts or, BUY an animal and kill two lives and help support the pet trade. Your choice. You feel sorry for the pig in the pet store. I do too. But I also feel sorrier for the pig in the shelter who has no chance except for a needle full of poison in the belly if he doesn't get adopted. That's not his choice, is it? You shop at the pet store. I shop at the shelter. That's what it boils down to. You see what you want to see. You don't see the shelter. You don't see their lives at the breeder. You don't see them suffering at the distributors and their trips being carted all over the states and the country. You don't see their mother being bred until she dies. You don't see the conditions from whence they came. You don't see what happens to the pigs who don't make it to the distributor and then to the pet store. Ignorance is surely bliss.

The only thing I don't get about your posts is how you don't seem to get that you participate in the supply and demand chain by shopping at the pet store. If you adopt, you don't. It's pretty darn simple.

Yes, I agree there are things that can be done, if done right in a very organized way, but that doesn't negate the fact that supply and demand is the fundamental law that drives the profit machine. All efforts matter. Again, personal decisions matter.

[CavySpirit]

Oh and John, when SPARC is a little more ready, look for an email from me soliciting your involvement, participation and leadership.

[John4216]

Wonderful and I understand the energy part..after the 8 years I spent on this last project I was exhausted and took a few months off. I think the legislation on care sheets is beyond wonderful and if you have any information that you might be able to send me I'd like to pass it on to a friend of mine in the Ohio legislature and see if I can convince him to possibly sponsor a bill here in my state that is like yours out there. And I'll be more than happy to help your project in any way I can when the time comes. You can e-mail me also using my e-mail account I registered with also

[AngelsCavies]

wow cavyspirit. I really like everything that you are trying to do for all small animals. I am going to give my local humane society a call to see if they need people. I just love animals so much that I would love to work with animals too.