Total Change of Mind

[Susan9608]

Dixiedoo please read this link: http://www.cavyspirit.com/breeding.htm. That should give you all the information you need about breeding guinea pigs.

You will NOT get any how-to advice or support for such an activity on this forum. If that fact or if any of the attitudes here offend you, the administration can suggest innumerable forums where you might be more comfortable.

I don't want to see anyone apologizing for offering non-breeding advice.

[this_lil_piggy]

I don't want to see anyone apologizing for offering non-breeding advice.

I don't think anyone apologized for offering the advice, but rather for delivering it rudely.

[seagirl96]

Right, This Lil Piggy! We LOVE people who want to learn! We don't want to turn them off to this forum. However I for one, am more than willing to verbally thrash anyone who refuses to learn and wants to make babies anyway because it might be fun.

[TX_2_Pigs]

Originally Posted by this_lil_piggy

I don't have a problem with breeding horses, cows, fish (for examples)..........because shelters aren't full of these animals needing homes.

Instead they simply get neglected, abused, let out, starved to death, shot in the head or put down when people get tired of caring for these animals. They are even more expensive to care for than piggies. They need feed everyday, lots of room to run and hay.

I know of several people who have had to call the sheriff about horses running loose. The sheriff basically says they can't do anything about it because either they don't know who the owner is or as is in the case of a friend of mine, the owner didn't want it anymore. I guess he just kept leaving his gate open hoping the horse would get out (which it did) and get hit or taken in by one of the neighbors.

We just moved but before we did, our neighbor had horses. 8 or 9 of them. There is absolutely no grass for them to graze. It is all dirt. They don't always have water readily available. Their hooves are in terrible shape and most of the time they have very little to no hay. When we first moved in, the horses would spend all night banging their feed buckets against the trailer they were hanging on, hoping they had more feed in them. Then when we finally got the neighbor to take them down after they were done eating, one horse started kicking the door to the shed where the feed was stored all night long. Several times he managed to get the door open and get to the feed. Just before we moved, he had 2 horses die. He left them laying out for 2 weeks before he tried to burn the carcasses. And since we have moved, I heard he had another horse die. These horses are malnourished and neglected. These people have been called in several times, but the horses have not been removed from them.

These animals aren't in shelters mainly because the shelters won't/can't take them. They don't have the room or resources.

[this_lil_piggy]

Instead they simply get neglected, abused, let out, starved to death, shot in the head or put down when people get tired of caring for these animals. They are even more expensive to care for than piggies. They need feed everyday, lots of room to run and hay.

I live on a farm, and surrounded by farms. I am quite aware of what donkeys, horses, cows need and require. If there are horses and/or cows in your area being neglected, abused, starved, let out, and shot in the head and no one is doing anything about it then that is evidence of a flaw/failure in your justice system, not evidence that there is a wide spread over population problem that should halt all breeding of these animals worldwide. There will always be idiots that abuse animals and children, but you can't take those few individuals and assume it is an epidemic. Eliminating breeding in these large animals wouldn't stop the problem of a few people that don't treat them right. Targeting those people will.

Cows and horses are free ranging, land roaming, grass grazing animals. It would be next to impossible to prevent them breeding. You can't keep them up in separate cages, and a bull/stallion will tear down any fence you can build to get to a female within any lose proximity. We have donkeys, both female and male, yet the males will still tear a fence down to get to a neighboring female donkey...we are forever mending fences, and we have had to go collect an escaped donkey a mile or two away on a few occasions. Our donkeys aren't neglected or abused, they are just persistent, and this comes with owning them. We used to raise cattle and it was the same with them.

There are things that I wish the local farmers would change... For instance, I wish they would find a more humane way of labeling their cattle for identifying purposes other than ear tagging and branding. But for the most part, as a whole picture, cattle and horses here are well maintained and cared for. Farmers go through great lengths and costs to provide lush grazing pastures, ponds for drinking water, and they keep their animals vaccinated and treated for illnesses. We all help each other as a community, too. When we see a horse/cow/donkey out we can usually narrow it down to a few people who may own it and we contact them. At times I can identify who owns an animals by it's coloring/breed and I'll pull off the road and run the animal back into it's fence gap myself---and most people around here do that.

All US cities/towns have laws in regards to animals. If you are truly seeing the problem you are seeing in your area I would launch a self driven campaign to put a stop to it. Most all humane societies that can't take in horses and cows personally, have strings they can pull to minimally have them placed in a foster-farm situation. Law enforcement should have the same ability if they want to/are forced to address the problem.
If I had horses being starved next door to me, my first action would be to buy a 15.00 bag of feed and feed them.

[Terekins]

This is an interesting discussion. TLP, I understand this issue is close to you, being on a farm and part of a farming community. However, I don't think you can really say there is much of a difference between how guinea pigs are treated, as whole, world-wide, or how farm animals are treated as a whole, world wide. There are people who take very good care of their guinea pigs, and yet we consider the overbreeding and maltreatment of guinea pigs a sort of epidemic--definitely a problem; Similarly, there are people (like yourself) who take very good care of their farm animals, but these animals are often mistreated, and this is obviously a problem as well. Just because you are lucky enough to not know anyone who mistreats their farm animals certainly does not negate the fact that this mistreatment exists. I have witnessed numerous cases of farm animal abuse living in the country. Laws really don't mean much when they're not enforced.

I admit I have a biased opinion because I completely disagree with the use of animals at all. I suppose you're at the other end of the spectrum I would consider any breeding of farm animals for consumption or use to be overbreeding.

[this_lil_piggy]

I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't comparing neglect or abuse in any way shape or form. The only reason you saw neglect and abuse mentioned in my post is because I disagree that just because some idiots choose to mistreat their animals doesn't constitute saying there is an overpopulation problem or that the species should never be allowed to produce again. My references to farmers here were because Tx came off as though she felt all or most farmers were this irresponsible. That may be her experience from her neighbor, but it simply isn't true of all, or necessarily even most, farmers.
Cows and horses aren't "impulse pets". People don't drop in at Petco and see one and decide to take it home. I don't know of a single farmer that has ever started farming and then gotten bored, or tired of the animals and therefore just let them out, starved them, or shot them in the head. If that is happening in a community then the people of that community have a responsibility to stir the pot and get something done about it. I have known farmers that get too old, retire, get ill, or go broke and can't continue to farm but even in those situations they try to recoop some of their massive $ losses by selling the animals to other local farmers either outright or through the cattle auctions.
Yes, there are cows and horses that are abused and neglected, and God only knows those people shouldn't own the animals much less breed them. But comparing guinea pigs to cows doesn't fly. MOST people don't pick up a few cows on impulse, stick them in their backyard and let them breed like rabbits (the gestation period of a cow is the same as a human by the way) and then get overwhelmed with way too many in a short time and dump them off in overcrowded cow shelters.

We always hobby farmed, strictly as pets not for dairy of beef. Although I am not vegetarian, and refuse to get into a wrong or right discussion in that regards, I would agree that a lot of beef farmers need stricter rules applied and enforced on them.

I am curious how you suggest people have cattle and they not ever be bred? You can't exactly have all the boys and girls separated out in little gender appropriate pastures.....and as I said I assure you if you didn't have a bull your neighbor would have one that would have no beans about breaking in and knocking up your heifer.

You fix the problem by going after these people that mistreat animals. Animal abuse and over population are two different things, they don't always go hand in hand. That is my point.

[Terekins]

I completely understand what you're saying in regard to lumping all farmers into one pile. Many farmers do take good care of their animals. But I do think that in some cases over population does go hand in hand with animal abuse. Not all farmers have animals they can't take care of, obviously, but it does happen. Just because these animals aren't bought as pets or bought impulsively doesn't mean they are never neglected. In fact, animals that are considered "work animals" or "food animals" as opposed to "companion animals" are often (in my experience) afforded much less care and tenderness.
Again, I recognize that you are a caring woman and probably take excellent care of your animals regardless of their purpose in your life. I agreed with TX on the point that these animals are often overlooked when it comes to issues of neglect.
In response to your question about breeding cattle, I wouldn't have cattle to begin with, and I don't think cows should be used for anything, don't think they should be bred, I think they should be left alone I know you think I'm silly, maybe even naive, that's ok.

[seagirl96]

Two small points. I think that TLP was trying to make this point: cattle and horses will breed. If left alone, they will breed more than is good for them or us.

My other point is that it has been my experience that working animals are usually very well treated. Draft horses, for instance, are treated extremely well by their owners. They are the farmer's tools but also members of their family. These animals are very expensive to buy and to maintain, and they work best for a farmer who has a close relationship with them.

[this_lil_piggy]

You say there is a cattle overpopulation problem, but If you just turned cattle out and left them alone there would be a much larger population of them, and people would be running them over in the roads. Most farmers only keep one bull in their pasture, and hard as that bull may try he just cannot breed all the ladies (which usually out number him by 50 to 100 minimally) back to back. In the wild, where bulls were numbered more evenly with heifers, yeah...there would be a larger population.

I didn't mean if you owned cattle in a literal sense. I was curious how you feel people who have cattle should prevent them breeding. You answered my question by stating you want them to just be wild....... but then if everyone turned their cattle loose they'd go breeding crazy all on their own?

I have no doubt that huge names in animal farming for food/production don't have animals best interests at heart, and don't care for them with tender hands. But it is still my opinion/experience that most everyday farmers do in fact treat and care for them pretty well...they don't or only barely make a profit between what they make off, say, milk and what they spend to keep the fields green, the cows well, wormed, vaccinated, fed...
Again, I am not talking about any farming that I do personally. I have been in the country all my life, I have known many farmers, all of which could/would/can/do walk into their fields and handle their cattle....... You have to be able to approach your cattle in order to worm and vaccinate them, check them for illness.....
Not all farmers are like the ones I see here, but not all farmers are like the ones you speak of either.

[thalestral]

I've read a lot on the Guinea Lynx forums about the overpopulation of horses in particular, especially arabs, and people there do advocate horse rescue wherever possible. Of course it's much more difficult than rescuing guinea pigs but that doesn't seem to hinder them.

Most cows here never see a bull in their lives, most sheep never a ram, population of farm animals, just as with pet animals, is completely controlled by humans.

Their are rescues here in the UK full to the brim with sheep, cows and horses, not to mention pigs and chickens. When it comes to animals - any animal used by humans for any purpose suffer from overpopulation problems. There are always too many animals in the big picture for a significant proportion (not even all) to be treated with the level of care they should be. The ones in rescues are the lucky ones as most surplus farm animals (just as with pet animals) are simply disposed of.

And that is why I can't support deliberate breeding of any domesticated animal at all, and one of the main reasons why I became vegetarian in the first place.